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A Song of Ice and Fire
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A Song of Ice and Fire Read-Along
I finished the assigned reading. Whoosh...I will need to maintain a large kleenex backup while we progress through the books! I was too often reaching for tissues!Now to pull my notes and such together. Like Heather, I seem to have QUESTIONS!😅
Yes, finding out how Littlefinger was named is just one of those buried gems discovered during this second reading. I rarely, if ever, read a book twice (on purpose - smile), but now think I am going to have to relook that.
Re-reading - not every book or series deserves a reread. But these do, as do LOTR. Even Harry Potter...which I started rereading in October. There is SO MUCH that I either missed or forgot. At times it is as if I am reading it for the first time.
Steven wrote: "Yes, finding out how Littlefinger was named is just one of those buried gems discovered during this second reading. I rarely, if ever, read a book twice (on purpose - smile), but now think I am goi..."Well, I must have missed that again...someone want to put it in a spoiler why he got that name, so I don't have to thumb back.
@JoAnne - it is the Caetlyn chapter where she (view spoiler). At beginning of chapter. Around page 140 in Trade Paper or Hardcover.
Theresa wrote: "@JoAnne - it us the Caetlyn chapter where she [spoilers removed]. At beginning of chapter."Ok, I will check that
Joanne wrote: "Theresa wrote: "@JoAnne - it us the Caetlyn chapter where she [spoilers removed]. At beginning of chapter."Ok, I will check that"
It is a paragraph or two. Worth reading as totally amusing...and is first we hear where Petr hails from which becomes important much much later in series.
Can I just say how much I love Littlefinger? He's been one of my faves even before I read the books and was only watching the show. He's such a slime and it's fantastic.
Reminder: discussion of part one reading of GOT starts Monday Jan 24. Time to wrap up those first 275 pages or so reading! If not done so already.Anyone can kick it off, but perhaps Heather can get us going early on with one or two of her QUESTIONS😊. Or does someone have an approach to suggest?
It will be far easier to discuss freely if we don't have to use spoilers. HOWEVER, since one or two participants are reading it for the first time, and at least one of those has not even seen the HBO series, all references to the future after the current reading will need to be put behind spoiler tags. I think vague references to things like the red priests showing up in the first Dany chapter, long before we remembered, are fine, but (view spoiler) should be hidden or avoided all together.
Ha! Most of my burning questions are pretty full of spoilers for later book, but I can certainly toss out a couple to start out with that pertain just to the pages we've read! I finished the allotted chapters yesterday, so I'll toss a couple out right now to let everyone mull on (or if you prefer I wait till the 24th let me know and I'll delete):
1. My notes are full of incredible and telling character moments; I feel like even in a short period of time all of the POV characters we've met have grown and changed.
Who is your favorite character so far? What moment with them was the most interesting to you?
2. I'm paying a whole lot of attention this time around to the use of world lore and the telling of legends among the characters. I think it is being used extremely well for foreshadowing (i.e. mentions of the Long Night, the emphasis on "winter is coming").
Do you find this effective and interesting? If so, what is your favorite piece of lore and what do you think it means? Otherwise, what about it doesn't work for you? (On my first read I found it VERY tedious until I realized the lore might have bearing on the current plot!)
This is a great start Heather. I think we are waiting on Steven, Kate and Charlotte (am I missing anyone?). If they are all caught up I see no reason to delay conversation, but I would rather wait and see if they check in.
Agree with JoAnne. Like the questions and this gives me time to mull them over.Foreshadowing is rampant in these pages.
I hope it isn't too late for me to join in? I haven't read any of these or seen any films so this seems like the perfect way to try them out. I will try to catch up with you fast but spoilers won't worry me so no need to censor your comments this week!
ShazM wrote: "I hope it isn't too late for me to join in? I haven't read any of these or seen any films so this seems like the perfect way to try them out. I will try to catch up with you fast but spoilers won't..."Welcome! We will be delighted to have you!
Basically, just avoid reading comments dated tomorrow onwards until you catch up. We start reading next section Feb 1. It reads very quickly, but no need to rush through. Whole point to this read along is to read it slowly to pick up on detail etc. easily over looked when eager to read what happens next, or at this pont, years later, have forgotten.
UH! finally, almost gave in and posted last night-not a patient woman here, but I do try hard!Who is your favorite character so far? What moment with them was the most interesting to you?
Well, no surprise it is still Tyrion. However Dani has moved up. I always loved that scene where she ravages Drogo, after instruction from her slave. Also, the scene where she puts her brother in his place. Dani's slave and other 2 companions get thumbs up from me too.
I have some pages marked to talk about, but I will have to get back to that later today, woke up late and have things to do this morning.
Like JoAnne, I was all set to start chatting on this last night, but held off. Not sure I can stand sitting at the computer much more so will put a few things out there. Favorite Character - Tyrion, first and foremost and that does not change. However, I did find that my reaction to others is a bit different this time - or I'm noticing things differently.
Dany - I was never on the Dany bandwagon. When first reading this and talking to friends reading, they were all Dany, Dany, Dany. BUT, this time, while still not overly enamored with Dany, I so appreciate what GRRM did for her so very early: he empowered her, as early as that first trek with the Dothraki. Superficially you think she's been sold into just a different enslavement, but then like Dany we come to realize that really, she was sold into her freedom. It's a fascinating concept and growth to watch. That moment she grabs her power over Viserys -- I cheered! But the moment she called her slave in to give her seduction lessons - that was a moment of empowerment.
Which leads to one of my questions: When Ilyrio arranges the deal, flattering Viserys, in addition to making money on it, was it part of a plot to possibly de-throne Viserys? Obviously Viserys was being flattered but was there more going on -- I mean Jorah Mormont was present at that first meeting of Dothraki and Targaryens - and it is not clear who invited him and why.
Back to Tyrion - every moment with Tyrion is a favorite. My big question on Tyrion is just how much does he know and guess about Cersei and Jaime and about what happened at the Tower that day. I think he pretty much knows it all.
Jon Snow: I find him more immature and childish than I remember thinking he was before. But as always, I love two moments: when he first figures out how he needs to be with the other new recruits, and when he befriends Sam. Those are the moments we see the man he will be.
I have a ton of notes and highlights - - more on the characters, much on the lore and the fables and stories and histories. One thing I will toss out now, that I mentioned before:The direwolves. Finding those pups and the nature of the different pups is important. The symbolism of the stag antler that killed the mother = (view spoiler). Every moment of that scene is important, including how Jon is the only one who hears the white direwolf. Plus there is a description that the white one has its eyes open while all the others are shut - foreshadowing?
There is one pup for each Stark child. Even Ned comes to realize - too late - that there was something important about those direwolves and there being exactly the same number as Stark children.
Foreshadowing --- there is so much foreshadowed here -- (view spoiler) - being alone in the cold and snow to fend for themselves.
Back to Heather's question about lore and history:
You have Sansa - who believes perhaps too literally in the fairystories of princes and princesses and life at court told to her as a child.
Bran - those dreams of crows and flying and even Nurse's stories told to him.
Robert - his version of Rhaeggar and Lyanna and the wars. Notice how Ned never ever agrees with, contradicts, or even comments on events when Robert or anyone mentions them. Of course those of us who have read this all before know exactly why.
Even the fantasies Viserys tells Dany and Illyrio tells Viserys about Westeros waiting for them to return.
Aren't all of them embraced by each character to justify their actions, inactions?
Who is your favorite character so far? What moment with them was the most interesting to you? I definitely agree with previous statements, but every reread I find myself admiring Catelyn more and more. On my first read I found her sort of annoying, but subsequent times I've started to really admire her strength and her ability to navigate this man's world she's stuck in.
My favorite moment with her was when she comes out of her (understandable) grief over Bran and makes the decision (and gives the command) to sail to King's Landing to tell Ned about the attempt on Bran's life. I think that's when it becomes apparent that although this setting is sexist, the narrative itself isn't. Cat becomes a player on the field in that moment and I love it.
I also tend to find Jon Snow a bit of a doofus, but I felt pretty bad for him this time around. I also like the part where Donal Noye talks some sense into him. He realizes that although he has a chip on his shoulder for being a bastard, he was still born to incredible privilege, and needs to learn how to check it, in modern parlance, lol.
I do love Daenerys but I think I never really fell into lionizing her the way it seemed like a lot of people did, especially during the run of the show. I remember getting the feeling certain fans thought Dany could do no wrong – which is definitely not the case. I think GRRM himself does a good job of empowering her but not making her plotline one that is too easy and full of girl power cliches. At the end of the day, she still believes she has divine right to a monarchy, which is something GRRM examines and challenges the entire series, imo.
Theresa wrote: "Which leads to one of my questions: When Ilyrio arranges the deal, flattering Viserys, in addition to making money on it, was it part of a plot to possibly de-throne Viserys? Obviously Viserys was being flattered but was there more going on -- I mean Jorah Mormont was present at that first meeting of Dothraki and Targaryens - and it is not clear who invited him and why."I have thoughts on this, but they get VERY spoilery for subsequent books, so I'm putting them beneath a spoiler tag! Read at your own risk.
(view spoiler)
Heather Reads Books wrote: "Who is your favorite character so far? What moment with them was the most interesting to you? I definitely agree with previous statements, but every reread I find myself admiring Catelyn more and..."
Interesting vis. Caetlyn. I am going in the opposite direction in some ways this time around, when in the past I admired her greatly and thought much as you did. This time 2 things are standing out: her preference for the Tully traits in appearance and character in her children and thinly buried aversion to the Stark - like the direwolves, and even the wilder or 'wolf' traits of Arya. And her loathing of Jon - she is a bit of a hypocrite, still yearning for the elder brother Brandon, thinking him the superior brother, yet never looking past Ned's story. Yes, it is natural to be jealous and resentful, but she is just so blinded by her own prejudices and expectations.
Favourite character - Tyrion is right up there. He’s such a complex person: profligate and bawdy on the one hand (which makes him a lot of fun) but that rude outer shell conceals an - at this stage - unerring eye for hidden truths. He’s not only street smart but actively scholarly: I’d love to be a fly on the wall for later conversations between him and Sam Tarly for instance. He has a good working knowledge of lore, but it’s academic rather than real to him at the moment, I think. Of course Tyrion has money and leisure and his time isn’t taken up with family affairs (the little things he says make it clear that his father has no time for him). He’s an intriguing mixture of extreme privilege and extreme marginalisation because of his disability. So it’s not surprising he uses the first to get what he can out of life, including gravitating to books. Amazing that he and Jaime get on so well - there was one reference even here to loving his brother. That makes me think there might be more depths to Jaime, despite the fact he seems so superficial, honourless and awful in a number of ways so far. My favourite character of all though is Arya. Feisty, unconventional, stubborn, focused, and with a huge capacity to love (the scene where she tells of chasing her wolf away made me cry). All the main characters in these books are outsiders in one way or another, but it makes my heart particularly sore to see this little girl who is properly understood only by one person - her father - but who can have little of his attention or time.
Theresa wrote: "Heather Reads Books wrote: "Who is your favorite character so far? What moment with them was the most interesting to you? I definitely agree with previous statements, but every reread I find myse..."
Extremely spoilery! I tend to agree with much of what you say. I believe it is all part of a side plot GRRM refers to as the something Plot. Mereen Plot? That doesn't sound right...it will come to me. I have never quite grasped what that plot is and what it is meant to accomplish.
Something to keep in mind ... Littlefinger's passing mention to Ned of the debt Robert has run up...who he owes money to besides the Lannisters.
I’m also iffy on Catelyn. On the one hand she and the worthy Ned have obviously made a go of it, and she’s definitely had a hard time of things (including having to live in the North, which really doesn’t suit her temperament or privileged upbringing) but the way she treats everyone when Bran is hurt is really distancing. And her behaviour to Jon is unforgivable - whatever she might think of the betrayal that his birth represents, he’s still a child under her roof who has no other family, and she is emotionally cruel to him. Some of her qualities are more admirable - her sense of duty for instance and her willingness to fight for Bran - but I’m not convinced she’s a person with a lot of genuine love in her heart except perhaps for Bran who is her favourite. She’s also so prejudiced and snobbish. But all that just goes to make her an excellent character and a real person - she’s really well drawn
@ Heather: I was thinking about how I should have mentioned my new respect for Caetlyn,, after I posted yesterday morning. I agree that the moment she awakens from her grief, that is a game changer. Do you think, and this is just a hypothesis on my part, that Martin deliberately shows the women he introduces in this first book as subservient? Even Cersei, as she stands there naked with her brother, appears to bend to his will. (view spoiler)
@ Theresa-I like you analyzation of the dire wolves. I have never though about it that deeply. I know I am going to gain so much insight from this re-read. My first (and only read) of this series was when I was recovering from my second surgery. Plowed through them in 9 months time, surely missing a lot of the intricacies. @Kate, is this your 1st time reading? Just curious
For me, I enjoy reading about Arya – she is tough, loyal, and perseveres in her struggles against adversity, but mostly, I think it is because of all them, she always is her own person even if that person doesn’t fit in exactly anywhere. The only person who seems to understand her is Jon, which speaks well of him. And, her relationship with Jon, who as a bastard, thus, also doesn’t fit in, shows she is also capable of love. A truly well-rounded character, and a favorite of mine. As a group of individuals, I also appreciate and admire the Maesters. Devoting themselves to study and knowledge in their book-filled towers so they can provide sound counsel to the various rulers is a pretty cool job if you ask me.
😁-yep, I would love to be a Maester! All those libraries and books!
More on the direwolves - as part of the lore, we learn that no one has seen a direwolf in 150 years. We also learn it's been 150 years since they have been seen below The Wall, and there are references to various creatures from beyond The Wall now being seen below it. Benjen mentions hearing tbem beyond The Wall when ranging. Presumably the Wildings have seen direwolves. Here is an example yet again of how GRRM uses viewpoint to color the story being told at a given moment.Remember that the direwolf is the symbol of the House of Stark. I think the return of living direwolves to the Starks is a definite alert to the reader that first, this family - the children of this family - will be central to the series with much swirling around them, second the Starks and their direwolves are the balance to the Targaryans and their dragons (remember Dany gets 3 dragon eggs as a bride gift), and third, a warning that the winter that is coming will be unlike any winter before.
Or maybe it's just that GRRM loves wolves - he is deeply involved with a wolf sanctuary in NM. But I don't think so.
Along side this are arrayed the Lannisters and their lion. There is ever a pushing forward by the Lannisters, a claim to rule and right even when NOT the ruling family. Note how interwoven the lion and stag are in the clothing worn by Joffrey, see description in Arya I - An ornate shield had been embroidered on the prince's padded surcoat. ... The arms were divided down the middle, on one side was the crowned stag of the royal House, on the other the Lion of Lannister. (view spoiler)
Then there is Ned's talk with Robert, describing arriving 10 years earlier at Kings Landing to seize the keep for Robert, and finding the Lannister flags everywhere, as if the Lannisters had won the war, not Robert.
This all of course has you wondering what is going on with the Lannisters and who is the Lannister puppetmaster, or is it a collective endeavor? Are their family meetings about how the family will be the real rulers? Tyrion of course is on the outside - at least as we are expected to believe at this point.
Heraldry is one of GRRM's passions, and there is a lot of heraldry in ASOIAF, and it is very much on display -- as I somewhat discussed above. Something I hope to keep an eye on during my reading is just when a description or a memory references heraldry, and whose- such as the combining of Baratheon and Lannister happening with the King's heraldry - note that the flags armour etc all emphasize red, gold and both lion and stag. The Lannisters probably primarily at Cersei's instigation, have all but eliminated the Baratheon heraldry in the King's. (view spoiler)
I was just looking over my notes and scribbles from our reading, and suddenly remembered something about Jon and Ghost I wondered about. Is Ghost both a protector of John and a portent of what is to come? Is Ghost, the white direwolf with the open all seeing eyes representative of the Others, of the Night King - (view spoiler) Remember the silence of The Others iin the Prologue -- and remember that Ghost is silent, the only direwolf who is -- or at least is mostly.
Carry it further --- Lady becomes the victim of Cersei and her machinations - even a tool demonstrating to Ned et al. her power - is this an omen for Sansa who is enchanted by a fairytale vision of court?
Summer helps stabilize and bring life back to Bran - remember how he stablized if Summer was near.
Nymeria - forced to leave Arya and smart enough to do so and avoid capture and going into the wild - (view spoiler)
We don't have much of sense of Grey Wind and Robb - and that I believe is deliberate. Of course Rickon and he direwolf are very young and undisciplined, still being formed.
Nothing in these pages is accidental or superfluous.
One more thing and I'll stop for a bit -- the info on how Littlefinger got his name and the info we gleaned about his past with the Tullys (those who have not read any of the series before or seen the HBO version, that relationship is important - both his version and Caetlyn's) - how it is based on his family being from the littlest of the Fingers peninsulas -- and his general sneaky slyness - has led me to wonder - is he perhaps poorly endowed in the manhood department? I mean - there's compensation for something going on there, besides his general cleverness and greed.
As far as Littlefinger goes, I think he was emasculated by Caitlyn when she refused him in their youth. Also, if you remember from the show (I only saw a few episodes but I do remember this) his clothing is pretty flamboyant. Is he in denial about being queer or asexual, or did Caitlyn hurt him so badly he just threw in the towel? I cannot recall if he is ever seen with another woman as a partner.
Joanne wrote: "As far as Littlefinger goes, I think he was emasculated by Caitlyn when she refused him in their youth. Also, if you remember from the show (I only saw a few episodes but I do remember this) his cl..."Other than when it is part of his plotting for power and money? No. Nor is he shown as having a male relationship. Plenty of those show up with others.
There is also Littlefinger's ownership and rule over the bordellos of Kings Landing and the boys and ladies of pleasure he pimps. Always makes me think he is a sneaky little spying voyeur. Oh, wait, he IS!
Re: Catelyn - Yes, I 100% agree her one big flaw is how she could never acclimatize to the North and just how vicious she is about and to Jon Snow. But I love seeing her come into herself not just as Ned's wife but as someone with strength and purpose and determination to find out who is targeting her child for assassination. (view spoiler) Joanne said something super interesting here: "Do you think, and this is just a hypothesis on my part, that Martin deliberately shows the women he introduces in this first book as subservient? Even Cersei, as she stands there naked with her brother, appears to bend to his will."
I DO think that's the case, to set the stage for how the setting treats women, but not how women will operate in the books. There's a lot in the first couple Arya chapters about how she wants to do swordplay with the boys but "girls don't do that stuff" and she chafes at it until Ned gives in. Between her, Catelyn and Daenerys (view spoiler), they are all becoming in charge of their destinies and demonstrating this is not a series where women are passive or simply objects there for the benefit of men. Woke AF, as the kids say ;)
Edit: I don't mean to exclude Sansa from this but we haven't seen much of an awakening from her yet in this section – she is SO sold on the dream of marrying a prince, even though the stuff Joffrey did to Mycah is objectively horrible and her own direwolf pays the price. Instead she blames Arya for what happened because Joffrey and the royal family surely cannot be in the wrong here. Oh, Sansa...
@Steven - I'm also super intrigued by the Maesters. I think Maester Luwin is a paragon of the bunch. He clearly is dedicated to the Starks and seems to genuinely love knowledge for knowledge's sake. Pycelle seems to be a different beast – presenting to Ned as a doddering old man, perhaps willfully ignorant of foul play that could have befallen Jon Arryn. I love how GRRM presents different institutions in this setting and how they are all imperfect and prone to corruption – the Maesters are, perhaps, no different. (view spoiler)
I keep meaning to dive into the lore question but I have a feeling it's going to be super long so I'll have to postpone it for now 😂maybe later today!
Theresa wrote: "Joanne wrote: "As far as Littlefinger goes, I think he was emasculated by Caitlyn when she refused him in their youth. Also, if you remember from the show (I only saw a few episodes but I do rememb..."" he is a sneaky little spying voyeur." yes he is...slithering, slithering snake!
@ Heather, that was my comment about the subservient women, but no matter, I am glad you addressed it. It was something that was bugging me the first time I read the book, this time I am more informed and those thoughts came together. I do have to ask though what is Woke AF? Old lady here, so no clue what "the kids" say.
And Sansa, I have to say she annoyed me the entire series last time around. Perhaps I will see her through different eyes this time. I do have to say that nature vs nurture comes into play here. As the eldest daughter she was raised to know that there would be "a bride price" on her head. Her being a b%^&h all the time, well that comes from her mother.
Joanne wrote: "Heather, that was my comment about the subservient women"OMG you are right, I don't what my issue was this morning, I was staring right at the post! my apologies. I will edit accordingly.
"I do have to ask though what is Woke AF?"
Woke AF = woke as fuck. "woke" is being hip to societal issues and generally being progressive in your outlook, "as fuck" meaning "to the extreme" or "in very heavy quantities". :) I was trying to say I find GRRM's treatment of female characters nuanced and not falling into tired sexist tropes.
😂-well I never would have guessed that one, though I was trying.No worries about the comment, I was not trying to correct you, just making you aware so I could comment on what you wrote.
Joanne wrote: "😂-well I never would have guessed that one, though I was trying.hahahaha, well, I hope it was illuminating! Not that I'm all that well-versed on what the kids say these days, but a few things trickle in here and there...
No worries about the comment, I was not trying to correct you, just making you aware so I could comment on what you wrote."
I'm glad! I just felt bad because I like to give credit where it's due.
Also re: Sansa - she can definitely be hard to take, but last time I wound up feeling bad for her by the end. There are a few characters in this series that I'm not sure I like, but they go through such terrible stuff I can't help but pity them. (view spoiler)
A few things I want to dive into here, as the discussion triggers more and more thinking about it all... I'll start with the Maesters. I definitely am reading all we are told and whom we meet and how they act, etc. way differently this time than ever before. Between ADWD and the HBO series, I am far more aware of their importance and role than I was before. I am looking at them all far more closely and oh there are so many little clues as to each maester's 'quality' for lack of a better word already. Even just from their apparel AND those chains that indicate the depth of their knowledge. I agree that Maester Luwin may be the purest balance of academic ivory tower and grounded in the real world of all in the book. He's more than an advisor to the Stark family; he's essentially their property manager as well, and medic and counsellor. Note his appearance -- plain, sober robe, plain metal links on his chain I believe.
Pycelle - whole different story - that first description of him already suggests that he's corrupted: his chain has many precious and semi-precious gems and metals.
Aemon at The Wall - we have seen little of him yet, but so far he's definitely more in the scholarly world, a seer.
Of course some of that is adapting to the need of the community they serve but also there is personal choices and ambitions there. Aemon is hiding from the world -- and his heritage?
A momentary aside re: Pycelle -- what does he know about Cersei and Jaime, how involved in the Lannister plots is he?
Who poisoned Jon Arryn and how? I've actually forgotten so I'm looking forward to the eventual reveal. Again so to speak.
Back to the women....
Women were chattel in the world depicted here. Just as they were in a similar era in World History. All women at some level were bought and sold for profit and women of the upper classes were bought and sold for the consolidation of power and land and armies as well. As we come to see there are women who do wield power and even rule - that's not really a spoiler as we already see that Cersei has acquired a great deal of power, a great deal of which she acquired because Robert's weak governance left a void.
On thinking about it, and remembering that GRRM is setting stage here for this saga, the primary and important secondary characters are all initially (often only briefly) introduced in the role they occupy and play in the overall social and political structure of Westeros. For the women, that is one of subservience, powerlessness, being property bought and sold, used to create alliances. Then GRRM starts individualizing them -- Dany at first is merely chattel being abused and sold by her brother but she's then shown as seizing some control and using opportunity presented. Caetlyn's strengths, intelligence and willingness to take action starts to shine through.
And of course for most of us hindsight on these characters is 20/20. We are not reading these pages with no other knowledge of the characters.
We have not talked at all about the wards and what being a ward may or may not have contributed to or will contribute to any of the character's actions. Theon is ward to the Starks - essentially taken as a prize from his defeated father/family after a war. Petr Baylish was the ward of the Tullys. Ned and Robert were wards of Jon Arryn. Look at the characters - strengths and weaknesses of each. Theon even in these early pages is callous and shallow. Petr a/k/a Littlefinger is a sly sneaky little voyeur. Robert won a war but became a very weak king with poor ability to rule. Ned may be the only one who is strong and admirable, but his wardship was with a Stark connection not the result of warfare, and his weakness is actually also what is most admirable about him: honor. Is GRRM presenting this practice of wardship as bad? As somehow contributing to the political maneuverings and instability? Clearly with Theon and Petr there is deep resentment, possibly with Robert as well.
Contrast the bastards -- who only ever know that they do not belong and have no entitlements. Unlike the wards who feel they have been deprived.
Something to keep in mind as time goes by.
Joanne wrote: "😂-well I never would have guessed that one, though I was trying.No worries about the comment, I was not trying to correct you, just making you aware so I could comment on what you wrote."
You beat me to the correction. I was not that insightful 🙄
Do you find the use of world lore effective and interesting? If so, what is your favorite piece of lore and what do you think it means?Okaaaaay consulting my notes on this one. This is going to get a bit long, bear with me.
Winter/The Long Night
I am FASCINATED by all the talk of winter and the Long Night and how "winter is coming." There is so much foreshadowing about a primal darkness on its way to be the biggest conflict of the series, and I love it! (view spoiler)
I have always been really taken by how seasons work in this series and how summer symbolizes calm, peaceful, easy times and winter is when all the harsh trials and tribulations occur. Even in the first chapter (the "cold open") we have Gared talking about the specter of winter:
"It was the cold," Gared said with iron certainty. "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold."
In Bran III, while he is having his coma dream, it describes him seeing deep into the "heart of winter" where the Others are. The crow keeps telling him "winter is coming" and it is important that he learns to fly. Even more interesting, I never thought much about why Bran names his direwolf Summer until now – but consider summer as the "force" that stands against winter, the way Summer has been protecting Bran this whole time?
In Tyrion III, he and Jeor Mormont have a fantastic back and forth about the threat winter poses:
"When I was a boy," Tyrion said, "my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we've been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand." He grinned.
The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own."
...
"These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter IS coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the North. The gods help us all if we are not ready."
And finally, in Bran IV, Old Nan tells the story of the Long Night and the last hero trying to stop it by seeking out the children of the forest:
"So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it."
(view spoiler)
Essos/"The East"
I also love the worldbuilding here and how the more "exotic" local of Essos is painted via legend and rumors. In Daenerys I:
Magister Illyrio was a dealer in spices, gemstones, dragonbone, and other, less savory things. He had friends in all of the Nine Free Cities, it was said, and even beyond, in Vaes Dothrak and the fabled lands beside the Jade Sea.
Also, in Daenerys II, Dany's dragon eggs are described as being from "The Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," invoking some mysterious faraway place.
And! Samwell Tarly even mentions "warlocks from Qarth with white skin and blue lips" who tried to use magic to make him a more desirable son for his father.
The Daynes
The Daynes are a House from Dorne that get talked about a lot in the series but rarely show up. (view spoiler) I find it really fascinating that Arthur and Ashara Dayne get spoken of like the stuff of legends, and it's even hinted Ashara might be Jon Snow's mother. In Catelyn II:
Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And then they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.
(view spoiler)
Whew.... I think that's all I have for now! I love the lore in this series, it makes me want to know more about every aspect of the world and the people in it.
Thoughts on Heathers post:I never thought much about why Bran names his direwolf Summer
Love this analogy - Went right over my head until you mentioned it, but yes I think there is a meaningful connection here. You have also, earlier I believe. made the connections with Jon and Ghost-And so we have Lady, Grey Wind, Shaggy Dog. Doubt there is any deep meaning to Shaggy dog..lol.
And! Samwell Tarly Just wanted to say. I really loved Samwell first time around and am so looking forward to reading his parts again!
Just so you know, I am starting part 2 of our read. Was there a set date? Did we plan to finish this book in February? I am going to wrap it in Feb. so I can use for one (or more) of my challenges.
For me, the direwolf names represent how the children are - or maybe how they see themselves - at that stage in their young lives. Children give pets names for their own reasons, I think. Grey Wind: a noble name, (the heir just coming into his responsibilities), Lady (romantic, delicate and, to us, naive); Nymeria (a heroine of legend, brave and independent); Summer (the sunny carefree one - the irony both for boy and wolf is awful); Shaggydog (very much a small child’s name for his pet); and Ghost (for the boy who feels invisible, an outsider, as well as for the colour and soundlessness of the wolf himself). I love how the wolves are so like their children in character - happens a lot with dogs too.
Joanne wrote: "Just so you know, I am starting part 2 of our read. Was there a set date? Did we plan to finish this book in February? I am going to wrap it in Feb. so I can use for one (or more) of my challenges."Plan is to read in 3 sections over 3 months - read the assigned section in first 3 weeks of the month and discuss in depth in last week of the month.
Nothing stopping anyone from reading ahead. I mean, most of us are on our 2nd or 3rd reading anyway. Sometimes you just need to read it when the time fits too.
Whenever you have a question, check the first comment in this thread. It's all there or links to where to find it. I update routinely. In fact, I'm updating right now.
Play Book Tag
Books mentioned in this topic
A Clash of Kings (other topics)A Clash of Kings (other topics)
War and Peace (other topics)
The City of Brass (other topics)
The Night Circus (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Erin Morgenstern (other topics)Diana Gabaldon (other topics)
NYC had a dusting of snow last night, followwed by sleeting rain so all gonne. But New England is getting it bad.
It is very dark, overcast, and cold today.
I still have cookies baked by my sister in a tin...time to indulge with hot chocolate? I think so.
As for my reading...I had either forgotten or never noticed before just why Petyr Baelish was dubbed Littlefinger and by whom.