Language Learners and Polyglots discussion
Our 2022 Foreign Language Reading Challenge Group Status Chat
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Finished Die Toten von Vindobona by Alex Wagner, murder mystery set in Roman Vienna. Bloody and unsettling.
Jane wrote: "Finished Die Toten von Vindobona by Alex Wagner, murder mystery set in Roman Vienna. Bloody and unsettling."Glückwunsch! Got another one for your challenge. 👏 That makes...4 in German this year for you, I think?
Berengaria wrote: "Jane wrote: "Finished Die Toten von Vindobona by Alex Wagner, murder mystery set in Roman Vienna. Bloody and unsettling."Glückwunsch! Got another one for your ch..."
I checked and I believe you are right.
11/11: Annie Ernaux - Le jeune hommeFresh from the printing presses after the French bought every book of her after the announcement of the Nobel prize. It's very short (only 40 pages) and therefore not as rich as her other works. But for a quick, post Nobel update it was fine.
I still have two on my list that I didn't replace - let's see whether I get through them, too.
Iamthesword wrote: "11/11: Annie Ernaux - Le jeune hommeFresh from the printing presses after the French bought every book of her after the announcement of the Nobel prize. It's very short (only 40 pages) and therefo..."
Hurrah on another one! 👏 You've got 2 and a half months left. Plenty of time. And I heard that the French went wild at the news of her Nobel win, so can well imagine that bookshops were cleaned out for a bit.
Yesterday I finally started reading my first German book ever 😄My knowledge of this language isn't good enough to understand everything I read, although I'm often able to derive the meaning from the context or by comparing to Dutch words.
But to make sure I get all the nuances right, I'm reading both the original book Gut gegen Nordwind and the English translation Love Virtually alongside each other.
What's really coming in handy is that the book consists entirely of e-mails written by the two protagonists. So after every mail or so, I read the translation.
At the moment, I'm only 5 pages far. But my first impression is that lots of nuances are lost in translation, which causes the dialogue to be less vigorous in English than it is in German.
*Tau* wrote: "But my first impression is that lots of nuances are lost in translation, which causes the dialogue to be less vigorous in English than it is in German. "In short, language and culture are intextricably interwoven.
*Tau* wrote: "Yesterday I finally started reading my first German book ever 😄My knowledge of this language isn't good enough to understand everything I read, although I'm often able to derive the meaning from t..."
I find that a lot as well. German is simply a richer, more expressive language, I think.
Like Dutch, it has small parts that can subtly change the meaning. English has nothing like that. It's a far more vague, generalised language into which you can interpret more.
German is VERY precise. It's difficult to be vague in German if you are speaking on an adult level. (And probs in Dutch, too)
I've tried translation (German-English) and it really is difficult to render that much compact detail into vague, time obsessed English - which in my opinion is the perfect language for only one thing: spedition.
Also, the Anglo-Saxon countries don't have a long nor strong history of translation. It's been only in the last two decades that Anglo publishers have "discovered" non-English literature. (What, there are world bestsellers that we can't sell because they're not in English? Quick! Get it in English!)
This means there are far fewer good literary translators into English than you'd expect. The market simply hasn't been around long enough to achieve an overall high standard. It really depends.
Congrats though on trying German for the first time! Hope you enjoy the novel, too.
Well done *Tau*. I am struggling at the moment with my Dutch reading (my mother tongue is German), though the similiarities between the languages really help a lot. I found great comfort in the fact that Dutch also counts numbers backwords like "vijfentwintig" (fünfundzwanzig, five and twenty) which most foreigners find odd. I would not be so critical about English, though, Berengaria. There are many short words which are very concise, but yes, obviously German has the famous/infamous capability of creating new words, simply by concatenating existings words like the "Hottentottenmutterattentäter", which can be found in some textbooks. And English has the advantage of diriving its words from two language families at the same time Germanic (Anglo-saxon) and Roman (Norman).
Peter wrote: "I would not be so critical about English, though, Berengaria. There are many short words which are very concise, but yes, obviously German has the famous/infamous capability of creating new words, simply by concatenating existings words like the "Hottentottenmutterattentäter""I don't really mean the linked together words as much as the tiny differences in meaning that the prefixes can give. Yes, English has phrasal verbs as well, but not nearly with the same literal exactitude of German.
Examples:
Dienen vs bedienen. Darbieten vs anbieten. Heranfahren vs anfahren. Or even the very basic hinein and heraus. The subtle differences between these words would be challenging to render in English with any degree of naturalness.
That's what I mean. German's ability to take a verb and squeeze such a high degree of literalness out of it. English just can't compete which is why translations from German are (almost) never as vibrant or crystal clear as the original.
Paul wrote: "In short, language and culture are intextricably interwoven."And in long? 😋
No seriously, I know that's the case.
But even in the same language there can be a whole range of differences between writers/translators 😉
Berengaria wrote: "German is simply a richer, more expressive language, I think."Apparently, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Berengaria 😉
Despite speaking Dutch and French myself, I don't think one of these languages is really 'beautiful' or more expressive than another language.
English though has so many nuanced terminology for words and expressions that even don't exist in these languages.
I don't pretend that it's never the other way round. Just try to translate 'de jarige' (in English: 'the birthday boy/girl' - in French it's even worse though: 'celui/celle qui fête son anniversaire').
And I also think that there's a difference between British and American English in that matter.
But in general I often favour the English language overall.
Berengaria wrote: "Also, the Anglo-Saxon countries don't have a long nor strong history of translation. It's been only in the last two decades that Anglo publishers have "discovered" non-English literature. (What, there are world bestsellers that we can't sell because they're not in English? Quick! Get it in English!)
This means there are far fewer good literary translators into English than you'd expect. The market simply hasn't been around long enough to achieve an overall high standard. It really depends. "
I think you've got a very strong point there!
Berengaria wrote: "Congrats though on trying German for the first time! Hope you enjoy the novel, too."
For me, that's already a big step.
But glad to finally read this story that's been on my book shelves for several years now!
Still enjoying. Although I'm only 15 pages far 😉
Peter wrote: "Well done *Tau*. I am struggling at the moment with my Dutch reading (my mother tongue is German), though the similiarities between the languages really help a lot. I found great comfort in the fact that Dutch also counts numbers backwords like "vijfentwintig" (fünfundzwanzig, five and twenty) which most foreigners find odd."Thanks, Peter!
If you ever have any question concerning Dutch, you're always welcome to contact me (here of via a PM) 😉
Peter wrote: "I would not be so critical about English, though, Berengaria. There are many short words which are very concise, but yes, obviously German has the famous/infamous capability of creating new words, simply by concatenating existings words like the "Hottentottenmutterattentäter", which can be found in some textbooks. And English has the advantage of diriving its words from two language families at the same time Germanic (Anglo-saxon) and Roman (Norman)."
Same here, Peter.
English is in fact my favourite language (despite not being my mother tongue) 😉
Waw, does a similar word exist in German too? Didn't know that!
In Dutch it's "hottentottententententoonstelling" (which definitely means something else than the German version, but is apparently the longest existing Dutch word) 😄
This really reminds me of Opperlans (Dutch) and Oulipo (French), which are gatherings of writers who like to play with their own language 😄
English and French (Roman) have indeed a lot in common.
That's why I sometimes have difficulties to write correctly, because words are só similar!
F.e.: 'example' (Eng) versus 'exemple' (Fr), 'text' (Eng) versus 'texte' (Fr), ...
Berengaria wrote: "I don't really mean the linked together words as much as the tiny differences in meaning that the prefixes can give. Yes, English has phrasal verbs as well, but not nearly with the same literal exactitude of German."That's a very interesting remark, Berengaria!
Will take a further look into this subject 😉
*Tau* wrote: "Berengaria wrote: "I don't really mean the linked together words as much as the tiny differences in meaning that the prefixes can give. Yes, English has phrasal verbs as well, but not nearly with t..."Perhaps we have a love for the languages we've learned, or at least a preference for them over our native language(s). Their phrasing and structure may perhaps seem more vivid because we did not grow up with them. They aren't "commonplace" but something delightfully different.
I've taught English for years so I know all the silly or awkward grammar rules (like those governing adjectives) and parts that don't make any sense (like when to use infinitive vs gerund), and of course the unforgivable spelling and pronunciation rules (or lack thereof).
Maybe it's also this viewpoint - that of a teacher having to explain all the lacks, randomness and oddities of English to learners - which has ruined a lot of English for me.
Rather like if you had to explain again and again and again that the action verb in Dutch goes to the end of the clause or the rules for where "er" goes to learners who are like "you're lying!" or "that's just totally weird, man" or "why would anybody SPEAK like that? It makes no sense."
Well, yes, in comparison to the rest of European langs, it is weird where German/Dutch puts the verbs. And why WOULD anybody speak like that? 🤷♂️ But you have a classful of belligerent adults starting at you with folded arms awaiting a logical, easy-to-understand answer that fits their understanding of what YOUR language should be based on THEIR native language. Which you can't give.
From that perspective, when you see all its warts, it becomes hard to like your own language.
(Mind, people here on GR have incredibly good English, for the most part, compared to the adults I taught/teach who were often struggling and didn't want to learn anyway.)
Berengaria wrote: "Perhaps we have a love for the languages we've learned, or at least a preference for them over our native language(s). Their phrasing and structure may perhaps seem more vivid because we did not grow up with them. They aren't "commonplace" but something delightfully different."Very interesting food for thought, Berengaria!
Just like the rest of your reaction.
It's totally true that some things in Dutch/German are difficult to explain to people who speak another language (I've lots of French speaking colleagues who ask me questions like the ones you mentioned).
Thanks for your extensive responses! Much appreciated 😉
Just finished up my last challenge book for Italian. Yay! It was short but really awful. (Idiotic love story) Glad I'm finished! How is everybody else coming with their challenges? I'm interested!
THAT WAS THE LAST ONE!! Just finished up my last challenge book for the year! Had to change out a Dutch for a French, but it was still 12.
So:
1 in Icelandic 🏴☠️
2 in Italian 🏴☠️
4 in Dutch 🏴☠️
5 in French 🏴☠️
Completed!
Let me know how you're doing... oh and FYI, I'll be deleting this thread around January 2nd, so the time to chat is now!
Well done Berengaria!! 🏴☠️🏴☠️🏴☠️ And thanks for facilitating such an awesome group challenge/chat. Your hard work and involvement is appreciated. I will be rejoining next year :) My challenges met were:
1 Swedish 🇸🇪
1 Bahasa Indonesian 🇲🇨 (sort of)
I carry over 1 extra Swedish book into 2023 as I am reading a much longer/harder book.
I need to improve my Indo reading. I read one on slang, and attempted another at the level of my Swedish book but realised I didn’t have enough vocabulary, so I went back to reading a book for new language learners, which I will also carry over to next year.
How did everyone else go?
I think I had too many different reading challenges going on to complete this one. I read half of a Norwegian crime novel, maybe I can at least finish this one this month. But next year I definitely want to read at least the Dutch and Norwegians books I own & haven't read.
And, at long last, I am on the final chapter of the final story of Olly Richard's SHORT STORIES IN SPANISH for beginners, Volume 1. Lo and behold, there has been a noticeable jump in my comprehension level over the course of this book and I'm now able to move up a step. I've begun reading a Spanish translation of two of Hergé's Tintin stories EL TEMPLO DEL SOL and LA OREJA ROTA. But finishing those will be sometime next year. In addition, my mega-challenge as it were, is that when I was visiting Seville in September, I bought a translation of TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD, MATAR A UN RUISEÑOR. Now that ought to definitely work out the little grey cells (or kill me in the trying)!!
HI EVERYBODY!Thank you for participating in the Foreign Language Reading Challenge 2022!
I hope this little challenge has encouraged you to make time - at least a little time - for other languages in your reading this year and that it will continue to inspire you to improve your skills in 2023.
There doesn't seem to be much interest in continuing the chat thread, so I won't be starting a new one for next year.
This doesn't mean you can't set your own challenge...but remember, if you need/want any encouragement to keep trying, feel free to send me a private message to tell me how you're doing.
Have a great year 2023!
Your Host, Berengaria
Just finished Kamel Daoud - Meursault, contre-enquête (it was a mixed experience), so I finish at 12/11 in French + 5 comics in French.Thank you, Berengaria for organizing the challenge. I enjoyed it a lot (so much that next year I'll try easy readers for Spanish and Japanese).
Have a great 2023 everyone.
Today I finished reading Monterosso mon amour, which lifts me over my goal bar for 2022: I read 6 books in 4 foreign languages (English, Polish, Italian and Dutch). My Russian choice unfortunately was beyond my skills.I also extend my thanks to Berengaria for her moderation and motivation.
Thanks so much Berengaria for organising this group. You did such a great job keeping it interesting and interactive.
Many thanks, Berengaria, for organising this group! My own contribution has been minimal but it's been really nice to know that the group existed and read some of the posts from time to time! Happy new year to you and all the group members and may you long continue with your language adventures!🤗❤
Sportyrod wrote: "Thanks so much Berengaria for organising this group. You did such a great job keeping it interesting and interactive."Here here. Thank you Berengaria!!
I am missing these conversations. So I created a new topic for 2023. Maybe someone feels likewise and to share her or his foreign language reading experience in this year as well.https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I am starting off with my current reading. Today I finished a bocklet of Polish poetry title "Fantasmagoria" by Sylwia Łukomska-Zijlstra (I asked GR librarian friend to create it). It seems the author is a Polish lady married to a Dutch person. Some of her poems are also translate into Dutch.The other book that I am currently reading is the 2023 boekenweekgeschenk De eerlijke vinder, a small book that everyone gets as a free give away who buys a book during the Dutch book week.
Peter wrote: "I am starting off with my current reading. Today I finished a bocklet of Polish poetry title "Fantasmagoria" by Sylwia Łukomska-Zijlstra (I asked GR librarian friend to create it). It seems the aut..."Hey Peter, I've responded over on the new chat you set up! Shall we move it all over there?
Berengaria wrote: "... Shall we move it all over there?"Certainly, Berengaria. I added a note to the 2022 topic only in case some members are getting alerts from all group postings.
Language Learners and Polyglots
Books mentioned in this topic
De eerlijke vinder (other topics)Monterosso mon amour (other topics)
Gut gegen Nordwind (other topics)
Love Virtually (other topics)
Die Toten von Vindobona (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Alex Wagner (other topics)Alex Wagner (other topics)
Alex Wagner (other topics)
Shakirah Bourne (other topics)
Carmen Lyra (other topics)
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It's one of those Wallander ones. "Sidetracked" in English. "Villospår" in the original. I didn't like it very much which will probs anger Wallander fans.
Since it was almost 500 pages, I'm not sure if I could count it as 2 books. If I don't make it through the final Italian challenge novel, I think I will count it as two books. Took me more than a month to get through at any rate!