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What are we reading? 9th November 2021
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Gpfr wrote: "
After Colette by Joan LingardI don't remember who recommended this book - Lass? Anne? Anyway, thank you, it was a very enjoyable read. "
Thank you for that... daughter number 2 is a 'Colette' (no coincidence) and this has been added to my 'definitely - maybe' virtual TBR pile.
Slawkenbergius wrote: "Yeah, but who's the intruder?"I'd assumed the "intruder" question was part of another post or text that somehow got swept up in your post.
Are you asking a "one of these things does not belong" type question about the list "Frescobaldi, Corelli, Pergolesi, to the Italian Maiden in Algiers"?
Of course, the last, in addition to being a title rather than a composer, is a 19th century work roughly contemporary with Fidelio, though your quotation does mention "an extraordinary fondness for Rossini", "eighteen-century opera", and "Baroque Italian music", which pretty much covers what's on the list.
How much do you think Bellow knows (or bothered to research) about music? I recall an exchange in the NY Times when Ravelstein was published. The reviewer quoted the phrase "state-of-the-art stereo playing Palestrina on the original instruments" as an indication that Bellow had done insufficient research, not realizing that Palestrina was known primarily, almost exclusively, for a cappella vocal music. In response to that review a reader wrote citing a recent recording that included some of Palestrina ‘s vocal compositions with instrumental support played on “original instruments” (not at present, I believe, a generally approved way performing Palestrina's music).
Of course, any such inaccuracies can be laid at the feet of "Chick" the novel's narrator by those so inclined. A similar question came to my mind when I encountered the Bach quote in Herzog, which is several narrative layers deep: Bellow describing Herzog quoting his own note about a statement by Walter Winchell.
Bill wrote: "How much do you think Bellow knows (or bothered to research) about music? I recall an exchange in the NY Times when Ravelstein was published. The reviewer quoted the phrase "state-of-the-art stereo playing Palestrina on the original instruments" as an indication that Bellow had done insufficient research, not realizing that Palestrina was known primarily, almost exclusively, for a cappella vocal music. "Yes, that's a tricky business. To be honest, I didn't know what to think about the reference to Rossini, which seemed odd after a list of Baroque composers (one of which, to my knowledge, only wrote instrumental pieces), so it all doesn't make much sense. And if Ravelstein appreciated opera so much, why not including other Italian luminaries of the genre, such as Monteverdi and Vivaldi? Why including Rossini? Or was he reflecting Bloom's own tastes?
That Palestrina detail probably gives away Bellow's knowledge about early music and contemporary performance. Maybe he wanted to refer to 'historically informed' versions?
A similar question came to my mind when I encountered the Bach quote in Herzog, which is several narrative layers deep: Bellow describing Herzog quoting his own note about a statement by Walter Winchell.
Truth be told, I didn't know anything about Winchell when I read Herzog, and took the information as it came. But in this case, I'm willing to give Bellow the benefit of the doubt. The beginning of the novel focuses directly on the doubts Herzog has about his own sanity, and even the way that Winchell reference is inserted in the text seems completely out of subject. So I really think that sentence was included precisely to illustrate the utter state of confusion in Herzog's mind, muddling up who is entitled to serve as an authority on a given subject and who is not.
Or maybe it's an inside joke?
MK wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Tam wrote: "I now have you, in my minds eye, still in the the French Foreign Legion, heading up the vegetarian/vegan phalanx...Haha! Well, my ambition to join the Légion étran..."
Fighter escort for the bombers?
giveusaclue wrote: "MK wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Tam wrote: "I now have you, in my minds eye, still in the the French Foreign Legion, heading up the vegetarian/vegan phalanx...Haha! Well, my ambition to join the L..."
I think fighter aircraft's mission should be to protect bombers, not to become bomber aircraft themselves.
AB76 wrote: "Next classic novel on list is part of my ongoing study of revolutionary era american texts, fiction and non-fiction.Jefferson's Notes on Virginia and The Federalist Papers formed the first part, ..."
Hope you enjoy your Gothic trip. The letters of John and Abigail Adams might be a good later stop.
Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Next classic novel on list is part of my ongoing study of revolutionary era american texts, fiction and non-fiction.Jefferson's Notes on Virginia and The Federalist Papers formed the..."
thanks robert and for the Adams tip, i started it earlier today and i like the style so far, its great to find american novels from the 18th century and non-fiction too.
"The Pamphlet Debates" are fascinating, thats "a slow read over a few months", from the library of americaThe American Revolution: Writings from the Pamphlet Debate: Vol. 1, 1764–1772
Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, I got all the paper work together in 2017 but just let it lie, as I stil..."Welcome to the ever-expanding family Tam. Some tips if you want to pass as a true native: NEVER sing The Fields of Athenry or say "top of the morning to ya"; only wear a bánín (Aran) sweater if you've secured a role in The Playboy of the Western World, even then it's a stretch; never refer to the South or Southern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland (with the exception of the national football team) to mean the 26 Counties ... it is simply the sovereign state Ireland or Éire; assume that Irish people are as likely to cook and eat Italian and Asian food as they are bacon and cabbage and Irish stew; arm yourself with a good sense of humour and an ability to laugh at yourself and you'll be welcome in any gathering! Fáilte 's fiche chugat don chlann.
Reen wrote: "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, I got all the paper work together in 2017 but just let it li..."Also, recall that almost any Irish family gathering has a feud somewhere under the surface. (Not too far under, either.)
A favourite song to welcome you from The Gloaming and singer Iarla Ó Lionáird. Saoirse is a poem by poet Seán Ó Ríordáin. The opening line, "Rachaidh mé síos i measc na ndaoine"... "I will go down/out among the people" is apt. You can utter it on the steps of the plane when you come to visit!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKKji...
Robert wrote: "Reen wrote: "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, I got all the paper work together in 2017 but j..."Doesn't every family regardless of nationality?!
On the language of revolutionary american era writing...I have probably mentioned this before but i am very impressed with the readability of Jefferson, Federalist and other 1770-1800 American texts i have been reading in last 18 months(Brockdon-Brown has started with same style)
I suppose its hard at this remove of over 200 years or so to define a difference in American English and British English at the time. Despite the revolution the two nations were bound by so much more that divided then in education and the literate elites were possibly interchangeable.
My findings with late 18thc British writing was that it remains quite mixed in its readability, unlike the american texts. Now having every english text simplified like the KJB was over time is not a wise approach to advanced reading but i do wonder if there was a plainer speaking, more direct American style at this time?
Reen wrote (268): "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, I got all the paper work together in 2017 but just let it li..."Hey! What is wrong with Aran sweaters? Mine was already old when I bought it about 30 years ago. Very scratchy (remedied by wearing a cashmere jumper underneath). I have become very attached to it and it seems to be undestructable.
Georg wrote: "Reen wrote (268): "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, I got all the paper work together in 2017..."Ha, I'm sure you look wonderful in yours Georg. Aran is a broad church, I was (a bit tongue in cheek) referring to the ones some visitors here (specifically some Americans) buy (with a free shillelagh) thinking it's how we all dress. Now I've insulted Americans! A cashmere jumper underneath? I'm perspiring thinking about it...
Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote (268): "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, I got all the paper work to..."where do fair isle sweaters stand?
Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote (268): "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, I got all the paper work to..."My Aran surely doesn't look touristy ,-)
The wool is too coarse, the pattern too simple (only cables). I think it is beautiful.
After I acquired it I did some research (I've always been interested in textile art and craft). And found that every family had their own pattern so the men lost at sea could be identified by it if they were washed ashore. Ok, that was before the internet and isn't true. But it was a compelling story...
Now that shilleilagh... that could come in handy in certain situations....
AB76 wrote: "where do fair isle sweaters stand"In the corner of the room if they have been worn for too long! 😀
I have been known to knit aran(ish) sweaters in the past, but my fingers couldn't cope with that any more.
Robert wrote: "Also, recall that almost any Irish family gathering has a feud somewhere under the surface. (Not too far under, either.)"
Didn't know our royal family was Irish!
Reen wrote: "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, I got all the paper work together in 2017 but just let it li..."Surely Aran jumpers must be post-ironic by now? I have been told that I now qualify as a 'plastic paddy'. Do they have different sorts of gear that they wear on their visits? I would very much like a free Sheela na gig though. Perhaps I will have to knit my own... The cabling and the button bit would be quite an interesting challenge. A friend of mine has also said that she has got an Irish passport. We could form a 'monstrous regiment of women' with a bit more effort. I'm more a 'Third Policeman' sort of theatre going person... certainly not Beckett. I cant look a dustbin in the lid without thinking of the terminal boredom brought on by that experience. Still each to their own.
Which bits of Eire would you recommend for a visit? I'm sort of drawn to Cork, but I don't know why. I guess there is always Yeats's tower... where I could practise my 'gyre' manoeuvres.... This is surely an opportunity to rhyme gyre with dire, sire and byre... I will have to have a think on it... Hope this finds you in good spirits....
@georg. Sorry you didn’t find Gillian Slovo’s memoir compelling. C’est la vie say the old folks. It goes to show you never can tell! It’s some twenty and more years since I read it. Still have my copy. Bought it after a reading from her. Probably a Waterstone’s event. Maybe I’ll read it again, but others are nudging for my attention. Currently on Gillian Tindall’s Three Houses, Many Lives, her research into the history of three English properties. I need to get back into it, as I had put it to one side. It deserved more of my attention, but my concentration has been a bit “mush” of late. Her A House by the Thames, the history of a 400 odd year old house on Bankside, opposite St Paul’s, was fascinating.
giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "where do fair isle sweaters stand"In the corner of the room if they have been worn for too long! 😀
I have been known to knit aran(ish) sweaters in the past, but my fingers couldn't..."
Me, too, give. Fair isle too on a yoke. I see they are back ‘in’ at present. Fun to knit but a swine to pick up a dropped stitch.
CCCubbon wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "where do fair isle sweaters stand"In the corner of the room if they have been worn for too long! 😀
I have been known to knit aran(ish) sweaters in the past, but..."
my only encounter with the fair island (boom boom), was on a trip round the highlands and islands about 21 years ago. the weather (in June) was so appalling we were stranded on Fair Isle for hours as the midsummer glow remained in the monsoon clouds and the inflatables simply couldnt land to pick us up. The observatory that sadly burnt down a few years back, sheltered us and gave us all some shepherds pie...i remember a wreck of a nazi plane on the island too...
It’s one of my regrets that I never visited Shetland and Fair Isle and that Bonny land where my grandmother was born , Ireland.My mobility is not so good now and dodgy eyesight doesn’t help. Shepherds pie in the Observatory, meal to remember.
Most don’t remember too many meals. I can only remember a couple - barramundi with fruit in Australia one of the best and sneaking fatty lumps of meat under the table in the childrens’ home as one of the worst.
CCCubbon wrote: "It’s one of my regrets that I never visited Shetland and Fair Isle and that Bonny land where my grandmother was born , Ireland.My mobility is not so good now and dodgy eyesight doesn’t help. Sheph..."
it was lovely shepherds pie and the observatory was wonderfully decorated, different themes rooms if i remember and a strange haven amid all the tempest of a summer storm.(sadly all thisd was lost when it burnt down a few years ago)
i was the dryest of the group as i had purchased an all weather berghaus coat weeks before but never expected it to be deployed in midsummer, most other people had leaky cagoules!
AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "It’s one of my regrets that I never visited Shetland and Fair Isle and that Bonny land where my grandmother was born , Ireland.My mobility is not so good now and dodgy eyesight do..."
You should have gone in July and got midged!
giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "It’s one of my regrets that I never visited Shetland and Fair Isle and that Bonny land where my grandmother was born , Ireland.My mobility is not so good now and dodg..."
i've been so lucky with midges, just one childhood stay on Skye where it was hellish, mostly i seem to have visited the far north during the coolest, wettest times and the midges are nowhere to be seen.
Oddly some of the best summer weather in my life has been in western scotland and western wales in may and june... blazing sun and the smell of heather and the sea.
Georg wrote: "Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote (268): "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, I got all the ..."At least at sea, it'd have been cold enough for them and they are, by all accounts, durable. I'm being a bit tongue in cheek as I say, and I'm sure you are the height of pre and post-ironic fashion in yours Georg.
Dear Tam, I am biased in favour of the rhapsodic beauty of the west Atlantic coast (specifically of Mayo where I come from),. Galway, Sligo and Clare (the Burren in particular) also worth a visit. I wouldn't come to Ireland without visiting Dublin ... at least for a day trip to see some of the sites and visit the National Gallery or The Chester Beatty Library which I think you'd particularly like. Some excellent restaurants too, including Michelin starred. I have a slight aversion to Cork so it wouldn't be top of my list but it and Kerry boast some spectacular scenery and there is the Crawford Gallery in Cork city, which is worth a visit. In the North, the Causeway coastal drive should certainly be on your list. If you do plan to come, and you'd like any more specific info... I'd happily give you the benefit of my questionable wisdom at that time. The midlands have their own charms too but my inclinations are more coastal! Good luck knitting your sheela na gig; at least you could freestyle. no one could say it was wrong, although...
AB, Fair Isle is always kind of "in" I think. I have always had a secret hankering for one but the patterned or heavily cabled jumper is no friend to the large bosomed so if I do resort to jumper wearing, I opt for a plain one. I'd love to go to Shetland as it happens, preferably on a day when Douglas Henshall is filming. Now there's a fellow who gives good jumper.
I have a Berghaus jacket that belonged to my father, whose seventh anniversary falls tomorrow. He loved a good solid coat. I took it more for nostalgia than practical use but I had to resort to it on a particularly inclement day and found a tiny salt cellar in the pocket; he used to carry one with him in case he was dining out as he had an aversion to "this bloody rock salt stuff" and preferred his salt fine and free flowing. Thankfully, it wasn't his love of salt that saw him off so the salt cellar remains in the pocket of that indestructible jacket.
Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote (268): "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, ..."love that berghaus story reen!
AB76 wrote: "Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote (268): "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has ta..."I'm glad you enjoyed it, one is never sure how a family story travels. He was a very serious man in many ways but also hilarious, often inadvertently. He'd decant the salt cellar from the outdoor jacket into his sports jacket if dining out and then, so as not to offend any patrons of the establishment who might be passing, sort of incline himself towards the plate lifting up the jacket pocket and dispersing liberally without ever removing the cellar itself, then settle himself back in his chair all the while carrying on a conversation seamlessly. It looked for all the world as if he'd had a touch of wind.
Reen wrote: "...only wear a bánín (Aran) sweater if you've secured a role in The Playboy of the Western World"Haha!
I can combine two threads here - my first Aran sweater was knitted for me by my ex-mother-in-law (we got divorced) - so 'family feud', too. Now, she was from the island of Ireland, but a Northern protestant - so is that OK or is it cultural appropriation? I need to know if I can show my face in daylight...
As for Tam's question - Dublin is definitely worth a visit... it's too long ago for me to remember much about Cork, but I enjoyed a visit with some school friends. (The Guinness may have something to do with the lack of specific memories, too.)
Edit: just seen Reen's answer to Tam's query - the Chester Beatty Library is a must, if you visit Dublin.
Reen wrote: "Douglas Henshall is filming. Now there's a fellow who gives good jumper."Indeed - we were streaming 'Shetland' only last night - even though I'm a bloke, I agree with my wife that DH is a very good looking guy and en excellent actor.
Don't know if I've had actual Fair Isle pullovers (most likely cheapo copies in the 1970s), but I have had some decent Norwegian ones which superficially to non-knitters look pretty similar...
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It's always amusing to see words from another language taking on a different meaning - a cagoule in French is a balaclava (as you may all know of course 😉). I was puzzled when I first heard/saw it used in English until I figured it out.
Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i was the dryest of the group as i had purchased an all weather berghaus coat weeks before but never expected it to be deployed in midsummer, most other people had leaky cagoules..."..."
yes, it fascinated me when i looked into the french right wing 1930s society La Cagoule about 15 years ago. I thought "named after anoraks? then i checked)
Anorak is Greenlandic...anoraaaq
Parka is Aleutian
Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote (268): "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has taken a while, ..."Arans are probably not as warm as you imagine them to be.
I wonder why sheep-rich Ireland has no tradition of felting. Unlike, for example, Bavaria, or the herdspeople of the Mongolian steppe.
Windproof and still keeping you warm when wet, would have been much better than knitwear for working outdoors.
If anyone here is hankering after a book from the Harvard University Press, there is now a holiday sale on - https://www.hup.harvard.edu/
Weiland(1798) by Charles Brockdon-Brown has started very well, i am intrigued by the visitations at the temple on the hill (no spoilers please) and the language that Brockdon Brown uses.There is something brilliant about the early gothic or horror writing, linked maybe to the words used and the pacing.
MK wrote: "If anyone here is hankering after a book from the Harvard University Press, there is now a holiday sale on - https://www.hup.harvard.edu/"just read a good NYRB article on "Blood and Diamonds" by HUP, about German South West Africa. Good timing MK!
Georg wrote: "Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote: "Georg wrote: "Reen wrote (268): "Tam wrote: "Yay!... As of today I am officially Irish!.. and back in the EU... Double reasons to celebrate for me. It has ta..."Not knitting, but sewing (at least for me). I am lucky enough to have a winter jacket made from a piece of Pendleton Yakima blanket fabric. Since it's, as they say, pure virgin (we all know that ALL virgins are pure!) wool, it's nice and comfy and much less expensive than if I bought one at the Pendleton store.
for mystery lovers - a nice piece in the NY Times about Caroline Todd. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/19/bo...
AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "It’s one of my regrets that I never visited Shetland and Fair Isle and that Bonny land where my grandmother was born , Ireland.My mobility is not ..."
AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "It’s one of my regrets that I never visited Shetland and Fair Isle and that Bonny land where my grandmother was born , Ireland.
My mobility is not ..."
Funnily enough I went to Skye in July many moons ago with my parents and a friend, mother and friend got bitten badly, dad and I weren't touched. I never used to get bitten at all, but when I went to Lake Orta in 2018 I got bitten badly. I think a lady's chemistry changes in "mid-life". At least that is the only explanation I can think of. (Of which I can think?).
I hope your experience of weather in Wales in June works for me as I have a holiday booked (fingers crossed) near Tenby next June.
giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "It’s one of my regrets that I never visited Shetland and Fair Isle and that Bonny land where my grandmother was born , Ireland.My mob..."
june should be reliable, not as warm as the southern UK but very pleasent. Bet i have cursed that now!
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AB76 wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i was the dryest of the group as i had purchased an all weather berghaus coat weeks before but never expected it to be deployed in midsummer, most other people had leaky c...""Cagoule" means "hood," doesn't it?
giveusaclue wrote: "Robert wrote: "Also, recall that almost any Irish family gathering has a feud somewhere under the surface. (Not too far under, either.)"
Didn't know our royal family was Irish!"
The Irish put more thought into it.
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Ersatz TLS
Books mentioned in this topic
The American Revolution: Writings from the Pamphlet Debate: Vol. 1, 1764–1772 (other topics)Herzog (other topics)
Ravelstein (other topics)
Herzog (other topics)
After Colette (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Willeford (other topics)Willy Vlautin (other topics)
Ahmadou Kourouma (other topics)
Roy Jacobsen (other topics)
I was so looking ..."
On a general point, i think Mothers do get a hard time i think, always facing the flak for interventions and decisions made. Its been a theme of a few novels and non-fiction i have read this year, with the father distant but respected or worshipped, the mother seen as a drag and a hinderance.
I still aim to read Gill Slovo's book