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Black Sun
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"Black Sun" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
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1. What did you think of the different timelines?At first this annoyed me as I had to keep flipping back to get a sense for when everything was taking place relative to each other, but then it got simpler as it mostly was about how many days you were from the Convergence.
2. What did you think of the politicking?
I didn't like it much! I felt like it was fairly straightforward (let's usurp Nanpa!). It grated on me.
3. How did this compare to other things you've read by this author? Do you have comparisons or contrasts to other books the group has read?
I've read two other books by Roanhorse, Trail of Lightning and Storm of Locusts which I gave 4 and 5 stars to respectively. Those were set in something closer to our modern world and were more straightforward urban fantasy adventure-mysteries with some unique twists. Black Sun I found harder to relate to being in a world much more removed from our own and I found it tougher to latch onto any one character who I could root for.
4. What did you think of the ending?
I feel like it was very underwhelming. The MC said he was going to go attack the Sun Priest on the Convergence and that's just what he did.
5. What worked or didn't? Overall thoughts?
I thought there were some points in the middle section that were cool as the magic was revealed. But mostly I was waiting for the story to happen as various chess pieces moved around the board and ultimately I didn't find that I cared who won the game. Between killing the entire crew of the ship and also his tutors I no longer wanted to be on team Serapio at all. Sure you might say they were terrible people, but I can't get past the fact that he murdered them and had plans to kill many more. Xiala was more likable but then she joined team Serapio and I just couldn't see it. As I said before the politicking chapters grated on me and I didn't really care who got to be Sun Priest.
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My favorite was Serapio, he seemed most unknowable throughout the book which I like. I went through the doomed/not doomed roller coaster for much of the story.
I will agree with most everyone else in that the ending was the weakest part. I liked it but it definitely felt forced, like that wasn't what Roanhorse originally planned.
I am definitely planning on reading the next installment.
Finished it just a few minutes ago!1. What did you think of the different timelines?
Like AMG, I had no issue with them and wasn't ever confused. The chapter headers tell you exactly when and where we are, for one thing...
2. What did you think of the politicking?
Again, like AMG, I thought this was one of the weaker points of the book. Naranpa at no point seemed like someone who was fit for her position (she didn't even have the bluster to fail up to it, so to speak), and I really, really wonder what her mentor was thinking by designating her as the next Sun Priestess. The actual politicking felt more high school level than the politicking of adults.
3. How did this compare to other things you've read by this author? Do you have comparisons or contrasts to other books the group has read?
This is the first work of Roanhorse's that I've read. If anything, it kinda-sorta feels like a gentler version of The Fifth Season, with the vengeance arc, and without the trigger issues regarding children, specifically.
4. What did you think of the ending?
I'm torn about it! It was so strongly pointing in the direction of a classic tragedy, with that final scene where the last character standing ruminates on the terrible waste of life that vengeance causes. And then "Hamlet" is still alive and at least half of the dead high priests were impostors? What? I'm intrigued, but it kind of missed the mark as an end-of-volume catharsis.
5. What worked or didn't? Overall thoughts?
It took me some time to warm to it, but it had sunk its teeth into me by the halfway mark or so. It was always fun to read and went at a good clip. Some aspects of it felt underdeveloped, but I think I'll go into that a bit more in my review rather than here. I'm glad I read it and I'm interested in seeing what Roanhorse's UF series is like.
Chapter 3I just got hold of this book and started reading immediately. I've never heard of Rebecca Roanhorse until now, but so far I like her writing style.
Chapter 1 was interesting, mysterious and sad.
Chapter 2 was quite amusing, I like Shala [sorry if I spell names wrong, I'm reading the audiobook].
Can't wait to read more.
I would definitely rate this 3.5 stars, I so wish we had seven or half-stars.What went wrong at the ending scene, what the hell?
There were a few things that didn't land for me: Sun Priest feeling like a teenage girl, or at least young adult feeling Imposter syndrome on her first job. Yet she is about 40 and had been the head honcho for 20~ years? I did enjoy the politicking and intrigue such as it was.
Also, could not figure out timing and placement of Sun Rock Island on the last day. Where did Serapio and the great covid sleep, why didn't anyone notice them? What time was the eclipse/ ceremony?
Timeline - i didn't love it but OTOH I don't see a better way to do it, than flash back to Serapio's training. Even Ursula K Leguin would have to do those as flashbacks, wouldn't she? Unless a long Serapio section came first and then Naranpa's, and then you swing the action over to Xiala and Lord Balan and the ship?
I found myself wishing it was more like Realm of the Elderlings books, starting with Assassin's Apprentice; a number of similar elements in their worlds but so much MORE of everything. Make it richer and chewier!
Despite these critiques, I do want to find out what happens to the characters! Naranpa's betrayal, connection to her Maw crime lord brother, Iktan the Knife Priest, Xiala with no boat, how Okoa and his clan will handle all this. Like Beth I have surprised myself by being willing to read the next one!!
In closing, Crows are awesome. Do birds have "shoulders" though.
Will be fun to discuss on Sunday. Please bring corn cakes.
The ceremony was at sunset, when the sun's influence was at its lowest. I also was confused about where Serapio had slept. It was an amphitheater-like area, right?
For the first half or two-thirds of the book, I felt very disoriented. I know that there was plenty of exposition, but I didn't really get how things fit together, why people were doing what they were doing, etc. I don't know much about Mesoamerican and Polynesian cultures so maybe knowing more about them would have helped me. It didn't help that I didn't feel much empathy for the characters; I rarely got drawn in emotionally during the first half.As the action picked up, I felt more involved. I might continue the series, but I hope that the pace is better, that whatever reasons the author had for a slow start are resolved.
Beth wrote: "The ceremony was at sunset, when the sun's influence was at its lowest. I also was confused about where Serapio had slept. It was an amphitheater-like area, right?"Chapter 38, Okoa POV, the aviary.
Dawn, morning light, sun is in the east, split into three suns (?).
Midday - He waits until then for Benundah to come for feeding; she doesn't; Shield guardsman comes to report Serapio and Berundah spent the night on Sun Rock... then he says for guard to send message for Carrion Crow people not to attend ceremony (wouldn't many of them already have gone to the island?).
Same scene. Now sky "had darkened markedly, and bands of shadow painted the ground at his feet. The sun and moon were moving into alignment as they neared sunset, and Okoa knew without a doubt that when the sun was at its weakest..."
Maybe ~Sunset~ just means the eclipse on Solstice Day, not the sun setting in the west?
Chapter 16Being blind myself, I am impressed as to how the author has presented Serapio. It is well done.
I have found the other main characters quite interesting as well.
I'm just a little bit confused with Nara's fellow priest, Iktan. Can someone tell me what gender they are?
Kathryn wrote: "Chapter 16Being blind myself, I am impressed as to how the author has presented Serapio. It is well done.
I have found the other main characters quite interesting as well.
I'm just a little bit c..." Nonbinary, I think.
Kathryn wrote: "I have found the other main characters quite interesting as well.I'm just a little bit confused with Nara's fellow priest, Iktan. Can someone tell me what gender they are?
I think Iktan, and Powageh (one of Serapio's tutors) were considered another gender and used pronouns spelled "xe" and "xir." Powegah in Chapter 25:
“A third gender, one I don’t believe you acknowledge here in this little backwater country. I am bayeki."
They were both from the Knife clan. But I didn't figure out if this was a gender of Knife people, or one some people took for themselves, or if Bayeki is a set particular gender in their world (any relation to Teeks?).
Maybe we'll learn more about them in later books.
I'd forgotten that both bayeki were Knives. Now I'm interested in the answer to that question, too. Thanks for telling us that the presentation of Serapio's blindness was well done, Kathryn. Roanhorse mentions in her afterword that she had a second reader for that aspect of the story, and it did feel better done than in another fantasy or two that I've read.
Thanks for explaining about the third gender Bonnie. I understand it better now. I've just finished Chapter 25, and also picked up on the Knife both being of that gender which made me wonder if it is a Knife thing. It is quite intriguing. Oh Beth that is interesting to know. She really has done a good job with Serapio. It is definitely one of the best blind characters I have read.
1. What did you think of the different timelines?I didn't like them in the beginning at all. Had to keep checking 'when' I was. The POV switches at the beginning were too frequent for me. I think it's because I'd just begin to get hold of a character, and then I was inside someone else's head.
2. What did you think of the politicking?
Like pretty well everyone else, I think it was pretty underwhelming. Naranpa slowly grew on me, but for someone in her position, and who'd been groomed for the position, she had a very poor grasp on the situation.
3. How did this compare to other things you've read by this author?
This is my first book by this author. I've read it mainly because it's in the Hugo packet. I don't think it's a great pick to be honest.
Do you have comparisons or contrasts to other books the group has read? (Please note this is an edit to correct the wording as pointed out by AMG)
4. What did you think of the ending?
Not well done. Abrupt. Not a cliff hanger, but just a sudden stop. Generally you see a bit of a hint about moving forward in a cliff hanger, with options for stuff to happen. This felt as though there was just a halt called.
5. What worked or didn't? Overall thoughts?
I think there's a good story there. I don't think the execution is doing justice to the story. I really enjoyed some character arcs, but others were 'meh.' I'm not sure if I've liked it enough to keep reading the series.
Okay I've finished the book.1. What did you think of the different timelines?
They didn't bother me at all. I've read Stormlight Archives by Brandon Sanderson in which there is a lot of flashback chapters and time jumps.
2. What did you think of the politicking?
Like most of you I think this was the weakest part of the book. The politics just seemed so basic, hardly any cunning was put into it. But then again Nara was so bad at playing the political game, that it really didn't take much to get rid of her. I also agree that I didn't think of Nara as in her 30s, she seemed extremely young to me.
3. How did this compare to other things you've read by this author? Do you have comparisons or contrasts to other books the group has read? (Please note this is an edit to correct the wording as pointed out by AMG)
This is my first book by this author. Crows were used in the Trickster series by Tamora Pierce, so I found a comparison there. But mostly this book was quite unique.
4. What did you think of the ending?
Uh, yeah it was quite underwhelming. Serapio set out to kill a lot of people and become a God, and wow he did just that, except that the real Sun Priest, Nara was missing, and Iktan had again put someone else in their raiment and they had obviously escaped the slaughter. And then Serapio wasn't even dead like he was supposed to be, which was not a surprise at all, because authors find it hard to sacrifice their creations. The battle at Sunrock felt really short compared to the long build up. I think a lot more description could have been added.
5. What worked or didn't? Overall thoughts?
Well the story was good. The different cultures and races were very interesting. Xiala was my favourite character, even though I think she is an idiot for falling for Serapio even after he showed what a monster he could be and was intending to be. Nara was the weakest character to me, she was an idealist and believed she could fix everything by forcing the other priests to go along with her plans. Then she was so sad and shocked when she was betrayed by the other priests. She was too easy to manipulate. I don't think we had enough chapters from Okoa's point of view, so it feels like we hardly know him. As I have mentioned in this discussion the blindness of Serapio was done very well. I wanted to know more about Serapio's magic, it is hardly described. I will continue the series, but if Xiala lands up with Serapio and Nara with Okoa, I won't be very happy.
Kathryn wrote: "Iktan had again put someone else in their raiment and they had obviously escaped the slaughter."Makes you think xe knew this was coming, somehow... and it also opens the question of why xe was sending in a dupe in other scenes.
Too true Beth. I am really questioning all Xe's motives now. I guess we'll just have to wait for the next book to find out.
Mod
I feel like I come to this thread and find myself in general agreement with what's being said again.1. What did you think of the different timelines?
It seems people were discussing them being confusing, but I didn't find them confusing, I simply didn't enjoy them being there. I don't think we needed a chapter set into the future where we know that Naranpa had been betrayed/wounded, all the other myriad of foreshadowing was making that much inevitable anyway. The past scenes of Serapio's training were interesting enough to show how he came to be who he was, but jumping around forward and backward in the 20 days leading up to the ending seemed unnecessary and most of the time I just wanted the book to get back to the story in the present.
In short, I didn't mind the flashbacks, and the perspective shifting back and forth between the events in Tova and the events surrounding Serapio were fine, but I think it could've just done without the jump-forwards altogether.
2. What did you think of the politicking?
I felt like the entire lot of them were being roleplayed by kids from one of my high school junior classes. Nara for sure came off as childish, but even many of the other priests.
(3. Haven't read other books by this author)
4. What did you think of the ending?
It wasn't terrible honestly, though I agree with some of the above that undermining the whole Serapio's sacrifice thing is a bit weak. I think what bugs me most about the ending is that none of what was meant to act in prevention of it seemed to even come up -- what happened to Nara talking to her brother, for instance, who agreed that any of this coming to pass would be bad for them in the city? I'd be okay if their efforts to keep things sane had failed, but it seems that thread of plot was just dropped completely. Well, other than the message that got to Okoa who... failed to understand it (not that the sent memo was terribly clever at all...) and did nothing until it was too late.
So instead we get a lot of dead bodies (most of which may or may not actually be important). It was in almost nobody's self-interest to let this happen, yet it seems like they all did. I actually don't really object to the outcome being what it was, but it felt like some other actors and plot threads in Tova just got forgotten.
5. What worked or didn't? Overall thoughts?
I think above covered most of my thoughts. The whole thing felt very heavy handed overall. Instead of foreshadowing it was just outright telling things from the future or putting things like "20 days until the Convergence" into chapter headings.
I did enjoy Xiala as a character, her thought process and trying to navigate her way through the world. I thought Serapio's background and growth was also interesting, although by the end it felt a bit like he hadn't truly ever acted on any of it (though, since he lives, I suppose the sequel could include that).
Not sure if I'll read the sequel. I'm curious about what happens but... in an academic sense if that makes sense. "I wonder what this author planned to do with this" more than actually being invested in the story.
I actually read the book a few months ago, so some details are a bit fuzzy in my memory.1. What did you think of the different timelines?
I tend to enjoy the type of storytelling used in this novel, switching between past and present. So the structure and the way the different timelines were used was one of favourite aspects for me.
2. What did you think of the politicking?
Normally I love politicking. But here, I agree with the majority of the commenters in this thread. Naranpa felt much younger than she really was and given her supposed experience in the position she was occupying, it was surprising how naive and out of her depth she was. So rather than sympathising with her, I was just annoyed with her incompetence.
3. How did this compare to other things you've read by this author?
I read "Trail of Lightning" before. While it was a much simpler book, I enjoyed it much more.
4. What did you think of the ending?
It was ok. I had been warned multiple times that the book ends with a cliffhanger so I was mentally prepared. I think I would be annoyed with such an abrupt ending, if I liked the book more.
5. What worked or didn't? Overall thoughts?
There were many things that should have worked for me here. And yet, I just didn't enjoy myself most of the time. It's not that there was anything I outright disliked - it's just that the book as a whole left me feeling lukewarm. I also couldn't really bring myself to care for most of the characters. I liked Xiala and was intrigued with Okoa's storyline, but that's pretty much it. I might read the sequel, but I won't jump on it the moment it's released.
I greatly enjoyed the book. I was going to read it along with Nick Cutter's 'The Deep', read the first 2 chapters of the Deep, then flipped to Black Sun and... finished Black Sun. I had to find out what was going to happen next! This is the first book I read by her, and I was impressed, I will be buying/reading the next book (or two).
on to the questions.
I thought she did a good job flipping back and forth between the various characters, even the flashbacks were effective.
The politicking I thought was good too. I know most people didn't like how Naranpa played her game, but, she was dealt a hand she found hard to play. Remember, it seemed all other Sun Priests were from approved Sky Made clans. Had she been of one of those clans, she probably wouldn't have been so naive. As far as I could tell, she was the first who wasn't of those clans. In a way, she reminded me of Jimmy Carter, a well meaning governor, ambitious enough to become President of the US, but didn't know how to play the game since he was never a US Senator/Representative (State senator yes). Naranpa, while ambitious and smart (she had to be to even get out of the Maw), obviously left her family behind. I'm sure the Sky Made clans weren't happy when she was designated to be Sun Priest, and worked to undermine her via the machinations of Abah.
I've read quite a bit of history, and leaders being usurped, playing poor political games, being naive, it's happened throughout human history, fathers usurped by sons, emperors replaced (heck in the Roman empire, one year (1204) they had 3 different emperors.
I can't compare this book to her other works, this is the first work I've read by her.
The ending, well, I get it. Serapio's whole purpose was to wipe out the priests. we knew that for half of the book. And that's what he did, other than the real Sun Priest who was already dead but Serapio apparently didn't know that, or at least he knew he didn't personally kill her. May be a bit of the Star Wars thing (OWK dead, but then not really gone). Will Naranpa be resurrected? stay tuned! Is Serapio dead? We know his body isn't dead, but is he gone? or is it the Crow god occupying an empty body? Stay tuned! I am curious on Xiala and Okoa. Will she go mermaid again?
It didn't end like Empire Strikes Back, it didn't end like Cixin Lui's 'three body problem' where things were left totally unresolved. Bad guys punished/killed. Although it's not explicitly said that Abah is dead. I think she is, but maybe she's not. It does seem most of those scheming to repeat the night of knives are dead, but again, the only one I can comfortably state is dead is Eche, and even his name wasn't explicitly mentioned as dying, since it was the point of view of Serapio, who didn't know the names of those he slew.
Overall thoughts?
I greatly enjoyed the book. I will be checking out other work by her. and anxiously awaiting book 2.
Oh heck, I just saw chapter 3's beginning. Naranpa isn't dead!
@MarkI wish that chapter had been left out of the book. I would have liked to wonder if she was dead or not at the end of the book. Instead we know she is alive, and that just takes away from the anxiety and mystery.
I agree, and also, why put the chapter so near the beginning? What did it add besides ~atmosphere~?
This is my first post on the forums on a book. I happened to be reading this for the Hugos, so I'm glad I finally get to contribute.1. What did you think of the different timelines?
So, the timelines of the book were slightly confusing, but I was able to track pretty quickly there were two main timelines with the one where we are getting closer and closer to the showdown and the one where Serapio is trained.
The chapter where Naranpa is shown as somewhat alive was out of place, and was probably unnecessary. It was like the extra scene in the Star Wars: a New Hope where we meet Jabba the Hutt, not all that enlightening and not adding to the later meeting.
2. What did you think of the politicking?
After reading A Memory Called Empire, this book was not comparatively deep on the politics. I get that Naranpa comes from the Maw so might be out of her depths, but she should have been more savvy after dealing with the games for all those years. Her biggest move was to not attend the event she set up and was tricked out of, so she wouldn't look like she was tricked. Her brother has way more scruples and is obviously going to use her to the end. The moves by the rest of the Sky Made were not all complex either, as they just discriminated against her and allied with who they thought were the strongest group, the Golden Eagles. The Crow and the Maw had the best politics as the brother had to navigate between his sister and the Serapio followers, but as previously mentioned, this plot seemed to drop off.
3. How did this compare to other things you've read by this author? Do you have comparisons or contrasts to other books the group has read?
While I seem to have a lot of misgivings, this was a really more elevated story than that in Trail of Lightening. She built a lot of characters I liked, including Serapio. Both he and Xiala were complicated characters with inner conflicts that lead them in unforeseen ways. Xiala sees how terrible Serapio is and yet, cannot stop falling in love with him. Searapio must go forward with his plan, but he is beginning to wonder what he will lose in the process. While the books are for different audiences, I like the characters in the book more, even Naranpa despite her incompetence.
4. What did you think of the ending?
Unfortunately, the final battle was anti-climatic. He destroyed the Sky Made without much trouble, with the eclipse. I thought more would occur, or it would be more devastating, but it somehow lacked a finality. This is a major shift in eras, where they change the name to the age of the Crow, but it somehow lacked completion. I think there needed to be a bit more substance to the ending, not just a bunch of lose threads.
5. What worked or didn't? Overall thoughts?
Overall, I liked the novel because of the characters. Serapio was a likable villain who is awful, but you can sympathize with his situation. He is forced into this life and cannot even comprehend doing anything but sacrifice his mind for his cause. Xiala is independent and not fully in control of her life and Serapio, despite her misgivings and doubts, connects with her fully. Their relationship carries the book. I also sympathised with Naranpa and want to know more about her brother. Okoa needed more time in the book and I want to see how he balances his relationships with his family and the rising power of Serapio's followers. The politics of the Sky Born are the weak point, but with them gone, maybe Naranpa can build herself into a competent leader. There is a lot of room to build from, including the Maw underground, the Crows, the Golden Eagles, the Water Striders, and the other cities. I enjoyed it enough to try a second novel.
Mod
Reading Richard’s post, I realize that I never did contribute. Ah well, I feel like Richard did an excellent job verbalizing my thoughts on the book and Luke him, I liked this one well enough to read the 2nd book. Thanks, Richard!
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Assassin's Apprentice (other topics)The Fifth Season (other topics)
Trail of Lightning (other topics)
Storm of Locusts (other topics)
Remember to indicate where you are in the book if you're hoping to discuss things before finishing reading
Some questions to get us started:
1. What did you think of the different timelines?
2. What did you think of the politicking?
3. How did this compare to other things you've read by this author? Do you have comparisons or contrasts to other books the group has read? (Please note this is an edit to correct the wording as pointed out by AMG)
4. What did you think of the ending?
5. What worked or didn't? Overall thoughts?
Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions