2021 Booker Prize Shortlist Discussion

[Hugh, Active moderator]

These are the 6 shortlisted book:
A Passage North by Anuk Arudpragasam
The Promise by Damon Galgut
No One is Talking About This by Patricia Lockwood
The Fortune Men by Nadifa Mohamed
Bewilderment by Richard Powers
Great Circle by Maggie Shipstead

[Tom]

Wow, no Ishiguro (edit: and no Cusk!)

[Laura]

I changed my prediction of Second Place to The Fortune Men on my Bookstagram (twostudentsremain if anyone wants proof) and I’m in shock that this is the first year I got all 6 out of 6 predictions right!

I also know I’m probably the only person here happy to see Great Circle on the shortlist.

[David]

3 out of the 4 Americans from the longlist made the shortlist.

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

Which will go down badly !

[David]

Shortlist:
- A Passage North
- The Promise
- No One is Talking About This
- The Fortune Men
- Bewilderment
- Great Circle

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

Overall my three favourite books, one I thought was a classic Booker (Fortune Men) and then two I thought were very weak (The Promise on a second read got even worse for me)

From the Forum's rankings its a little the same - most of the top books (except Cusk) and then the bottom one.

[Paul]

Can't quite believe Cusk hasn't made it - rather devalues the prize for me. Goldsmiths to the rescue?

Although I did get 5/6 - however much I quite liked it I couldn't see The Great Circle making it.

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

The prize was devalued once Assembly was missed out.

[Hugh, Active moderator]

Final prediction stats are as follows:

148 predictions, of which 93 were correct.
Nobody got all 6 right
David, Paul, Robert, Sam, Laura, Gwendolyn and Nicholas all got 5
WendyJW, Ann Helen, Jen, Cindy, Tom, Chris and Jamie got 4 (as did the collective top 6)
Debra, But_i_thought, Neil, LindaJ, Henk, Hossein, Anita and I got 3
Joy, Lascosas, Roman Clodia got 2

[WndyJW]

As a loyal American I wish Booker hadn’t admitted American novels. We haven’t welcomed Brits into our Pulitzer, Pen/Faulkner, NBA, etc., and we are no longer a British colony so what was the reason?

Considering 3/4 nominated Americans, 4/6 white authors shows they did not keep diversity in mind. Is that good or bad?

I will read A Passage North and Bewilderment, I’m not keen on Great Circle.

[Anita]

Paul wrote: "Can't quite believe Cusk hasn't made it - rather devalues the prize for me. Goldsmiths to the rescue?

Although I did get 5/6 - however much I quite liked it I couldn't see The Great Circle making it."

Very disappointed not to see Cusk there . . .I feel like I read all the books that didn't make the cut. Second Place was definitely at the top of my list.

[Roman Clodia]

I suspect Cusk didn't meet this panel's readability criteria. I only predicted 2/6 correctly but did rightly drop Cusk. I also didn't expect this many US authors.

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

Hugh wrote: "Final prediction stats are as follows:

148 predictions, of which 93 were correct.
Nobody got all 6 right
David, Paul, Robert, Sam, Laura, Gwendolyn and Nicholas all got 5
WendyJW, Ann Helen, Jen, ..."

That seems a lot better than random this time around.

[Lascosas]

I'm glad The Fortune Men made the list, though I only ranked it #8, and would agree that it is "a classic Booker".

[WndyJW]

Cusk is the book many of us thought should make it and didn’t. How many of Paul’s other predictions came to pass?

[Hugh, Active moderator]

The one prediction I did get right was that they wouldn't pick 4 men. I am surprised but quite pleased not to see Ishiguro, rather less surprised and less pleased to lose Cusk. Looking forward to Powers.

[Paul]

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Hugh wrote: "Final prediction stats are as follows:

148 predictions, of which 93 were correct.
Nobody got all 6 right
David, Paul, Robert, Sam, Laura, Gwendolyn and Nicholas all got 5
WendyJW, Ann..."

Yes we did very well this time - that is a lot better at random. One person with 5 would have been par.

[Debra]

My randomly generated (AKA monkey throwing) selection performed on par with my own prediction. Sigh.

My own prediction:
Second Place
A Passage North
Klara and the Sun
No One is Talking About This
China Room
Bewilderment

Random Selection:
An Island
The Sweetness of Water
The Promise
Great Circle
Bewilderment
A Town Called Solace

[Sam]

A judge answered that books were evaluated on their own merits. On whether authors successfully achieve goals they set. I think Great Circlr does that and Second Place does not. However Light, Perpetual was IMO on of the worst in achieving goals. And the judges did not seem to prioritize those goals.

BTW, my preferred list had five winners as did my predicted list although there were differences. ( Don't know what I was thinking . My preferred had only 4 correct.)

I think the surprise for me was not shortlisting Ishiguro. I thought Ishiguro was kind of unique in this group and one of the most accessible to younger readers.

[Paul]

WndyJW wrote: "Cusk is the book many of us thought should make it and didn’t. How many of Paul’s other predictions came to pass?"

9.5/10

1. I will express my horror at the list - largely on the grounds of it not including books more suited to the Goldsmiths/RoC/International Booker - and announce I am boycotting the Prize. I will then read most of the books and enjoy them, but pretend I don't

Yes - well that was nailed on

2. We will (nearly) all get upset at the exclusion of one book (Assembly perhaps this year?)

Yes - even got the right book

3. We will (nearly) all be horrified by the inclusion of another. It will then make the shortlist.

Yes - the Great Circle

4. [per Wendy] The Group's favourite book from the longlist will fail to make the shortlist

Yes - Second Place

5. Australia and New Zealand are apparently, once again, no longer English speaking countries.

Yes again

6. The list will include at least one book that isn't due to be published until after the shortlist date [this year that means anything from 15-30 September]

Yes Bewilderment

7. It will include several that, particularly post Brexit, are hard to get outside the UK.

Yes - In a sense that was nailed on - but An Island was hard to get even in the UK

8. Many of the choices will be "obvious" after the event based on a complex analysis of the judges' past history that would put Ted Rogers to shame

Yes - Gumble did his 3-2-1 act (albeit prompted by the prediction)

9. Gumble will have "only" read 10 of the 13 books. Having spent the previous 3 months hunting down ARCs of every possible contender, he will then complain he has nothing new left to read for the summer.

Not totally - ARC hunting down yes but a few more left to read than expected

10. The judges will include at least one ineligible book. I fear the "no books over 300 pages" rule I instigated may not be followed.

Yes - the Island which arguably was eligible last year

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

I think one of Paul's predictions is that the forum's least favourite made the list - and collectively I think the 12th or 13th ranked book was on there (depending if you use Paul or Hugh's ranking system) in Great Circle.

But on Paul's ranking system we had 5 of the top 6 (Hugh 5 of the top 7) - which is very impressive.

[Paul]

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I think one of Paul's predictions is that the forum's least favourite made the list - and collectively I think the 12th or 13th ranked book was on there (depending if you use Paul or Hugh's ranking..."

I would also say that I had 'horrified' in my prediction, and Great Circle had more of that, whereas Solace got more 'meh'

[Sam]

Given the makeup of the shortlist, anyone care to venture a winner prediction? I'll stand with my two picks. My vote would go to No One Is Talking About This. I think the judges will pick The Fortune Men.

[Neil]

Hugh wrote: "The one prediction I did get right was that they wouldn't pick 4 men. I am surprised but quite pleased not to see Ishiguro, rather less surprised and less pleased to lose Cusk. Looking forward to P..."

But the thing that makes me feel bad about my rankings for the shortlist is that it is the three men followed by the three women!

[Cindy]

Hugh wrote: "The one prediction I did get right was that they wouldn't pick 4 men. I am surprised but quite pleased not to see Ishiguro, rather less surprised and less pleased to lose Cusk. Looking forward to P..."

Yes Hugh I doubted you on the male/female point, but you were right about that. I am very surprised about Cusk and Ishiguro but not necessarily disappointed. I'm thrilled about the Lockwood. And it does certainly seem as though this was an easier/more predictable shortlist than others.

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

4. [per Wendy] The Group's favourite book from the longlist will fail to make the shortlist

I don't think that you can say Second Place was the group's favourite - it was either 2nd or 4th.

[Paul]

It was the one most chosen as top choice - 9 people picked it as their winner - so the oddest one to leave off.

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

True- modal favourite

[Paul]

Sam wrote: "Given the makeup of the shortlist, anyone care to venture a winner prediction? I'll stand with my two picks. My vote would go to No One Is Talking About This. I think the judges will pick The Fortu..."

I have a horrible feeling Lockwood will win.

Addition: although Bewilderment feels to me a book the Booker may see as their book

[Gwendolyn]

I’m actually pretty happy with this shortlist overall. Personally, I didn’t care for No One is Talking About This, but I can appreciate its mastery of what it was trying to do. Great Circle was also disappointing from a literary standpoint, though the audiobook was engaging enough to keep me listening until the end (quite a feat considering it’s more than 25 hrs!). The others are worthy and deserve their places (I haven’t read Bewilderment yet, but I feel safe making this comment).

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

I am worried about Galgut winning - mainly as I seem to be in a small minority (possibly of 1) on it and on the author - and my views only polarised further on a second read.

if I had to guess a winner now though I would say Fortune Men or Great Circle - the judges clearly like immersive style historical fiction

[Marc]

Paul wrote: I have a horrible feeling Lockwood will win.
Oddly enough, I have had this same feeling from the beginning (without feeling it would be horrible because I haven’t actually read it yet).

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

I guess its failed to cover a shortlist to a win once already

I would say that I think Powers and Lockwood will make for a great shortlist reading event (l don't really know the others)

[Paul]

Guardian take - they've chosen to major on the cull of the Brits

https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...

Did that come up in questions to the judges - were there any? - as seem quite a lot of quotes about the topic in the story

[Sam]

Paul wrote: "Sam wrote: "Given the makeup of the shortlist, anyone care to venture a winner prediction? I'll stand with my two picks. My vote would go to No One Is Talking About This. I think the judges will pi..."

Paul, I have empathy for you on Rachel Cusk not making the list. I still hope to make you a fan of Lockwood after discussing one of my favorite passages of NOITAT, the Thom Yorke, "Creep," passage. I wanted to see if the book made the shortlist before posting but I will do so in a day or two.

[David]

I am going to tentatively guess A Passage North as the winner. Partly because it's my personal favorite and partly because no one else has mentioned it as the favorite - but also because it's in the mode of a traditional Booker winner and may well be a consensus choice on the panel.

[Anna]

Second Place is so uniquely far above the rest, as far as I'm concerned, that I'm not surprised it didn't make the shortlist. It's exceptional finesse is bound to appeal only to a niche group of readers. The human qualities it explores are not universal (yes, I'm a snob).

I share Sam's opinion. I root for Lockwood, but it's more likely the judges will pick The Fortune Men. I'm currently reading the latter, and I'm more impressed with it than I expected. Her portrayal of Cardiff reminds me of Döblin's Berlin in Berlin, Alexanderplatz; the various layers of society are painted vividly, without crossing the line where historical details become superfluous (as were in Great Circle, for that matter). Its subject also fits current hot issues that are real and painful problems but fuel tokenism (blm). The writing is good, focused, crispy. I won't be unhappy if it wins.

[Paul]

Irish Times picks up on same point

The presence of three US writers and only one British author on the shortlist is likely to reopen the debate about the decision in 2013 to open the prize to all novelists writing in English. Maya Jasanoff, chair of the judges, said, however: “Literature has always crossed borders,” questioning the value of the former British empire as an appropriate container to judge literature today. Prize director Gaby Wood added: “Do you or don’t you want to find out who the next Joseph Conrad or Vladimir Nabokov are?”Chigozie Obioma, another judge, said: “The Booker Prize is the great leveller. These are writers telling stories that don’t make the news. We look not just at what they say but how they say it. Nationality doesn’t matter. It’s what is on the page.”

Fellow judge Rowan Williams, fielding a question about the presence of four historical novels on the shortlist, welcomed the recent revival in the genre, saying: “to understand where we are, we have to understand where we have come from.”

[Hossein]

It was very exciting for me, a passage north deserved it, and my prediction was not bad too

[Paul]

Not sure I'd think of it as four historical novels in the genre sense?

And which ones - does that include the Lockwood for example - which as a history of memes is very comprehensive? Whereas The Promise seems very much a character/family study

[Cindy]

Four historical novels? They read A Passage North as historical?

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

Rowan Williams is definitely championing readable historical fiction (I suspect he pushed Light Perpetual also) and the chair of judges is a historian which is what makes me think Fortune Men or Great Circle as winners.

its only one judge but he seems the most opinionated and willing to explain what seem like anomalies on the list.

[Cindy]

Great Circle and The Fortune Man are historical. I suppose The Promise is too. To me, that's it.

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

I can see three historical as The Promise makes it - but that is more of a literary tricksy book as much as a historical fiction one to me. I guess I think of pure historical fiction as taking place more in a single period. And Passage North seems far too recent.

[Sam]

Maya Jasanoff seemed to be pretty prominent in the shortlist release. I wonder how much of a role she played in the picks.

[Paul]

She was the chair wasn't she so ought to be prominent

[Tom]

I'm happy The Promise and The Fortune Men made it as those were the 2 of the 5 I haven't yet read I was most excited to read (China Room next).

I'll stick with my early prediction that Bewilderment will win. Third time's the charm for Powers. This would also give him a Booker, Pulitzer and NBA - presumably the first with all three given Americans only recently eligible for the Booker.

[Sam]

Paul wrote: "She was the chair wasn't she so ought to be prominent"

True, but she also seemed quite engaged, which isn't always the case. In other words she took it seriously.

[Tom]

WndyJW wrote: "As a loyal American I wish Booker hadn’t admitted American novels. We haven’t welcomed Brits into our Pulitzer, Pen/Faulkner, NBA, etc., and we are no longer a British colony so what was the reason..."

WndyJW - you've said many times you will not read Great Circle. What exactly has you so turned off?

In regards to Great Circle, there was quite a bit of talk about the lack of LGBTQ on the longlist and those facets of Great Circle were sort of brushed off as trivial - why is that? I thought those storylines were vital to the overall book, especially I thought cleverly coming full circle (no pun intended) with the ending.