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Little Dorrit
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Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others
those are great quotes Janelle. When I picture Amy on the balcony in Vencie, it reminds me of Amy on the Iron Bridge in London. Only now she's in better clothes. I think she is quite depressed.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Charles Dickens is really good at describing symptoms of various conditions which had no name then, but which we recognise now. Some are physical, and can even gave a name to the illness such as "Pickwickian Syndrome" first identified in the "fat boy" in The Pickwick Papers.
It's always worth bearing in mind that he observed in great detail, and from life. Great quotations too :)
Sue - duly noted; however my lips are sealed.
What a poignant chapter as we are privy to Amy's inner emotions and it is full of such melancholy. She writes to Arthur and talks about her own feelings and how much she misses her past life. She feels she has no purpose now and that her father believes he needs her but he can't let on now. She has written to tell him that she met Minnie and that she is well and so beautiful. It sounded as if she was trying to reassure him about Minnie but her true feelings are that she is very concerned for her. She definitely is not a fan of Henry Gowan. Poor Amy, this is such a sad chapter and enlightening to the reader. She is so in love and she is afraid to let it be known. If Arthur were to return her love, she'd never be allowed to marry him. He is part of their past.
She misses the Plornishes and Mr. Nandy is now able to live with them. And Maggy is not far from her thoughts:
Will you go and tell her, as a strict secret, with my love, that she never can have regretted our separation more than I have regretted it? And will you tell them all that I have thought of them every day, and that my heart is faithful to them everywhere?
She seems to be confiding in the only person she believes understands her. And in the end, she would be so sad to think that he thought of her as changed. She wants him to think of her as the same poor child, Little Dorrit.
as the daughter of a rich person; that you will never think of me as dressing any better, or living any better, than when you first knew me. That you will remember me only as the little shabby girl you protected with so much tenderness.
It is a sad chapter, Lori. Early in the letter, when Amy is telling him that Mrs Gowan is well, it’s almost as if she is giving Arthur permission to love Minnie - I could not wonder at anyone loving her. No, indeed. I wonder if she has guessed?Although Mr Dorrit bought Mr and Mrs Plornish a business which is very kind of him, Maggy hasn’t been provided for which is very disappointing.
Amy is so lonely. Her family’s behaviour exacerbates her loneliness because she’s not allowed to fuss over or hug her father any more. Their new status makes this sort of behaviour inappropriate. How very sad that is! She misses everything about her old life but particularly Arthur and worries that he won’t think of her the same way now that she’s wealthy. I’m hoping that love will find a way to overcome the difference in their social status, if that’s what they both want.
This is such a sad, and actually sort of lovelorn chapter. Amy is receiving no love accept the rather “spacey” attention Uncle Frederick gives her which is certainly kind.When I read the chapter, I thought Maggy was with the Plournishes too but that Amy realized for Maggy that would feel like being alone. So Maggy may be in a good place physically but still not well, still someone Amy has to worry about.
Here we have a precious insight of Little Dorrit's thoughts. She misses her old life, even if it was poor and difficult; she hopes Mr. Clennam misses her. I was surprised that she was so open in expressing her thoughts about Mr. Gowan and the Gowans' relationship. Minnie can look very beautiful and can say herself to be very happy, but we understand, and Arthur will too, that she is not happy and that Mr. Gowan is unsuitable to her.
We understand from this letter that the relationship between Amy and Arthur is very close, she is feeling that he is the only one whom she could really tell about her thoughts, the only one who could understand them.
I too had hoped for a better arrangement for Maggy.
I am watching the series. Now while reading every character has a face (Claire Foy's, Matthew Macfadyen's...).
Daniela - I was surprised too at how open Amy was in her letter to Arthur. It shows how much she trusts him.
Daniela and Fiona,Do you guys think that because she has absolutely no one to talk to in her new life that Amy is writing this letter as a sort of therapeutic measure. She's not ever been able to tell Arthur how she feels and somehow, her underlying message will most likely be received.
How fun, Daniela that you're watching the series along with reading. I can't wait to watch it myself!
Lori wrote: "Daniela and Fiona,Do you guys think that because she has absolutely no one to talk to in her new life that Amy is writing this letter as a sort of therapeutic measure. She's not ever been able to ..."
I think you may be right, Lori, but I do also think she trusts him completely.
I agree with everyone‘S comments. She trusts Arthur and he had become her confidante as no one else. She certainly can’t talk to her father or siblings. They don’t get her. And Mrs.General- definitely not. She seems pretty useless to me. I wonder how Arthur will respond to this letter. Will he pick up her underlying feelings? May I ask, Daniella and Lori. Where are you getting Little Dorrit on Tv?
A friend of mine has the DVDs and I borrowed them :)
Antionette, I will watch it via Britbox.
Oh my, at some point I may have to subscribe to BritBox.
Sue, my husband and I watch Britbox every day! Highly recommend.
I love everyone's comments. Agree with it all! I've been away from my computer all day, or I would have chimed in sooner.
I had no idea I would be finding this book so interesting. Mr. Dickens has me in the palm of his hand just waiting for more.Oh! I just had a thought! I wonder if Arthur will decide on a trip to Italy?
Well, Mr. Dorrit has noticed Amy's unbending to their new lifestyle and has called in Mrs. General for a discussion about what to do about this. He is quick to put her in her place a few times. Mrs. General notes that Fanny is much too opinionated as a lady should have none at all. But that Fanny has force of character and self-reliance. Amy, noneOf course we know this is absolutely not true and so does Mr. Dorrit however, he does not defend his favorite child to Mrs. General. He is still keeping up the pretenses concerning their upbringing. He covers up the Marshalsea past by saying they were reared in "retirement".
Sending his valet to bring Amy to have a talk, Mr. Dorrit is suspicious that he knows something of his stained past. (No matter how much he tries to erase the Marshalsea from himself and his family, it keeps seeping back into his mind. This could be the start of paranoia?)
When Amy appears in his room, Mr. Dorrit proceeds to tell her how disappointed he is in her inability to acclimate to her new lifestyle. He makes a point that Fanny and Edward have had no trouble. He becomes so upset and all Amy wishes is to please him. He cannot even look at her when he complains about how much she embarrasses him.
All Amy can do is listen and comfort him.
She laid her hand on his arm. She did nothing more. She gently touched him. The trembling hand may have said, with some expression, "Think of me, think how I have worked, think of my many cares!" But she said not a syllable herself.
Amy promises to do her best to make amends to her behavior.
The final section of the chapter has Frederick join them at breakfast. Amy has asked to be allowed to visit Mrs. Gowan who they learn has arrived. After Amy leaves the room, Frederick makes an outburst which is puzzling and they wonder if something is wrong with him.
How lovely that Mr Dorrit has burst into a rare butterfly! Judging by the way he speaks to his valet, it doesn’t sound as though he treats his servants very well, however.Poor Amy! Mrs General has been speaking to her on the general subject of the formation of a demeanour. She is not to be allowed to be full of wonder at Venice. She has been told that it is better not to wonder. It seems young ladies are expected to be blasé about all that they see abroad! To help with the formation of her demeanour, she is to say to herself Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes and prism, prunes and prism. Wonderful! Mrs General does love her ‘p’s. She also tells Amy that she mustn’t look at vagrants as A truly refined mind will seem to be ignorant of the existence of anything that is not perfectly proper, placid, and pleasant. What wonderful alliteration!
How hurtful Mr Dorrit is to Amy and yet she has nothing but compassion for him. He breaks down in tears at the end of his tirade but that doesn’t erase the words he said. Fanny is a chip off the old block when it comes to this pattern of behaviour. Abusers generally try to excuse their behaviour by pretending it’s for the recipient’s own good.
I’m a bit bewildered at Frederick’s outburst too, Lori, although I cheered him on as I read it. Why shouldn’t Amy meet with the Gowans, even if it’s only because the Dorrits want to establish a connection with the Merdles?
Fiona, I love that you added those ridiculous quotes from Mrs. General. They are perfect and the alliteration is wonderful! She is quite a character! You had some wonderful insights with this chapter. Mr. Dorrit appears to be losing himself to me. I think he is trying so hard to keep up his proprieties but deep down he's much like Amy - he can't forget his past. He did break down at one point and this may have been another small glimmer of humanity in him? I don't know. It is sad to see this loving relationship with Amy that he created for his own purpose go to waste. He is destroying the girl he made to be caring and loving. He seems to be so anxious (like with the valet) that he's going to make himself have a break down.
Frederick dislikes how Amy is treated and the discussion that preceded his outburst was about whether the Merdles were appropriate connections or not. The fact that this is the way to define friendship, based on what they have and can provide in connection to the Dorrit's is just another satire of the Aristocracy.
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Here's more info from Mark for US members https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..., followed by a brief comparison of the two from me.
A still from the 2007 one heads the first thread. Various other stills from both series can be found in the chapter summaries.
Papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes and prism. And what about "the formation of a surface"? Varnished, I suppose.
Poor Amy.
Frederick seems to me like some people who listen and observe and suffer in silence and then explode in the wrong moment and in the wrong way.
When Frederick exploded, I wondered if he was reacting to the Merdle name being discussed. But then I was pleased he was actually defending Amy in his own rather disjointed way which everyone present , except possibly Tip, chose to ignore. It seemed to me that Edward Esquire was mulling over his uncle’s words even as his father and sister were ignoring them. This will be interesting to follow as I can’t imagine Amy capable of imitating Mrs. General!
Lori - your paragraph about Mr Dorrit may be very insightful. He must have spent his time in the Marshalsea wishing for better days but now that they’ve come, he perhaps misses the status he had there. Perhaps his new status is stressful for him? As you say, he seems terribly anxious all the time.
Lori, I'm thinking of Mr. Dorrit as paranoid as well. I wrote that word down in the margin of my book as I was reading about how he treats his valet. I got a much fuller picture of Mr. Dorrit in this chapter. Not only is he paranoid, but he's also in a terrible fix with his favorite child, Amy. He so badly wants to leave the prison life behind, but Amy IS the last shadow of the prison that he can't get rid of. He talks about wanting to do away with the past over and over "a painful topic, a series of events which I wish to altogether obliterate" or "sweep that accursed experience off the face of the earth". But he can't forget, because Amy can't forget and she is always there reminding him. Which probably makes his paranoia worse. I'm still unsympathetic to the awful things Mr. Dorrit has done as a father. But, I can see after this chapter the Mr. Dorrit/Amy relationship is complicated. And I love Charles Dickens for creating characters with such depth.
About Frederick's outburst, that was wonderful! That and the humor of the prunes, prisms, poultry and potatoes were the best parts of an otherwise heavy chapter.I do think Frederick's outburst had everything to do with the Merdles. Remember, he knows about Sparkler and Fanny having a romance. Which Fanny was paid to "forget". He also knows about the way Mrs. Merdle treated Amy in a condescending manner when Fanny dragged her to their mansion. So if the Dorrits are going to attempt to socialize with the Merdles, I think Frederick is (rightly) worried that Amy will suffer more humiliation. Its one thing for Edward to spend the night gambling with Sparkler, they are both sort of buffoons. It will be quite another scene when Amy is required to sit in Mrs. Merdles drawing room again.
Sue wrote: "It seemed to me that Edward Esquire was mulling over his uncle’s words even as his father and sister were ignoring them. This will be interesting to follow as I can’t imagine Amy capable of imitating Mrs. General!"Sue, I wondered about Tip's reaction too! He is looking perplexed and doubtful after Uncle Frederick's outburst. Perhaps he is wondering what Fanny has done to make Uncle Frederick reprimand her so passionately? That might be helpful for Amy down the road.
Bridget, I’m wondering about Tip’s response too. He seems to be responding on a different level. And he doesn’t join in the festive/teaching moments that follow.Another thing that bothers me about the family is that, except possibly for Frederick, they appear to forget that Amy was born in the prison and had never had any other home. How is she to suddenly be different? Of course Mrs. General doesn’t know the background, but the others do. Mr. Dorrit…oh I don’t know what to say about him anymore. He is almost schizophrenic in his attempt to divide his mind between past and present. Fanny similarly moves between gooey demonstrations of sisterly affection with Amy and total disgust. But now we see Edward “Tip” seem to pause.
There must be some excellent chapters ahead. This book is so good, and it’s one I really didn’t know anything about.
You all have such great thoughts about the Dorrit family, I have nothing to add.The “prunes and prisms” bit got me interested, it’s in the Oxford Dictionary of phrase and fable:
“ the phrase is used allusively to designate a prim and affected speech, look, or manner.”
with Little Dorrit referenced as it’s first usage.
Its possible Oscar Wilde named his governess character in The Importance of Being Earnest Miss Prism, after it.
Janelle - that’s really interesting re prunes and prisms. Thanks for sharing. I love that kind of detail :)
The Dorrits are really annoying me with their snobbery and selfishness! Poor Amy - only Fanny seems to vaguely feel that they're treating her unfairly. Their shame is overriding any sense of loyalty - a strange definition to have of being "noble" or gentlemanly....
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This was such a fake and preposterous chapter. So much blatant deception and insincere behavior going one. Henry is a cad who doesn't like Blandois but decides to encourage a friendship out of spite that Minnie dislikes him. His true personality has come through and it is quite ugly. I can't even type the most horrific parts that make me want to throw him out the balcony of his Venetian room. He should be ashamed and to scare Amy and Fanny that way. Poor, Poor Lion. I just can't believe that Dickens wrote animal cruelty into any work. Fanny is faking her "love" for Amy. She may love her but she is putting on so blatantly and will encourage Sparkler's affection not because she likes him but because he's worth a bajillion dollars (oops, shillings- I am not well-versed in the Victorian monetary system). She makes it out that she will conquer him and shame his mother in the process. Wow!
I didn't like this chapter at all.
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It's my least favourite chapter too, and the part about Lion made me cry :(
If you feel like this too, then please follow Lori's link and look at the end of my summary, which has one of Phiz's most delightful illustrations. I like to think that Charles Dickens at least tried to make up for the terrible cruelty he described, by making us laugh at the ridiculous Sparkler, legs akimbo :D
Although I loathed the abuse and death of Lion, I didn’t hate this chapter. I found some of the character portrayals really interesting. Henry Gowan is an utterly perverse character who manipulates people for his own entertainment. Blandois isn’t universally liked so Henry decides he will like him. He finds Blandois’ mannerisms hilarious and likes to have him around so that he can satirise them. He’s just using him and I can’t feel sorry for Blandois as he doesn’t deserve better. Henry refers to him as a murderer after the fact and Blandois’ hand is seen to shake in response. Does Lion smell his fear and that’s why he starts to growl? I’m sure it’s Blandois who has poisoned him and not Henry.
Fanny is another manipulator and is also perverse, particularly in her manufacturing of a scenario in which Mrs Merdle has decided to overlook Fanny’s previous career in the music hall because she is now moneyed and is encouraging Mr Sparkler to woo her. I find this unlikely as the Merdles’ position in society would surely mean that Sparkler could take his pick of society ladies.
I also found humour in this chapter, eg the Gowans’ door being opened by a smiling man like a reformed assassin and Fanny’s superior manner towards Minnie when she was excessively courteous to her, and said the usual nothings with the skill of a veteran. She seems to have learned well from Mrs General and we see this in bucketloads in the nonchalant way she treats Mr Sparkler.
I think Dickens plays with our emotions in this chapter which is quite dense with detail. The brilliance of his description of the building in which the Gowans are living and the way in which he moves seamlessly from the sickening abuse of Lion to a comical scene on the gondola had me utterly confused about how I was feeling from line to line. I don’t hate this chapter, I find it intriguing and I think we learn a lot. I completely understand your reactions though, Lori and Jean.
Fiona I agree with what you say. While there were so many awful things happening, so much tawdry behavior, Dickens’ writing shines. He takes down almost everyone and almost every place through his description of their appearance or behavior. The comparison between the quarters of Mrs. General, the Gowans and the Dorrits keeps being hammered home. Sparkler’s simple idiocy is there in action and words. Fanny is more obviously malign in her intent and actions as time goes on. At the same time, the Dorrits are all reaching for pie in the sky. Even Sparkler seems a bit doubtful about their future with his mother.Lion is another matter. Sadly, I feel that either Blandois or Gowan could have poisoned him. Gowan might have because the dog disobeyed, made him look ineffective. Blandois, well because the dog attacked him and we know he kills.
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Yes, good observations Fiona, particularly about Henry Gowan, Blandois and Fanny, all of whom we are getting to know much better. It is solely the treatment of "that noble dog Lion" which makes me hate the chapter every time I read it :( I had dreaded this day coming up, ever since you all first met Lion and fell in love with him.
I think Dickens plays with our emotions in this chapter which is quite dense with detail.
Obviously there is a lot conveyed and implied in this chapter, which hopefully the length of my summary (and three illustrations) showed! Charles Dickens swerves from one nicely judged mood to another in all his works; he's a puppet-master and controls our emotions very carefully. The comic scene at the end (I briefly referred to here) was quite deliberately placed by Charles Dickens. I'm sorry I can't repeat all the discussion here. Thanks Lori, for trying to make it easy for everyone to look.
I was aware of the shock by many members in our original reading, and wanted to record my own feelings again, in case it made anyone dislike and feel alienated by Charles Dickens's writing this. He loved dogs!
Bridget, Sue and others, I'm so pleased you are all enjoying the depth and complexity of this novel, as well as the gripping story :)
Fiona and Sue, you have provided some excellent observations and insights into this chapter. You are both right that we learn so much about the characters in this chapter and can't help allowing those descriptions and behaviors to either shock or dismay. I have not one iota of compassion for Henry Gowan but I most certainly am worried for Minnie. I hate how Henry lets everyone think he has lowered himself in this marriage against the wishes of his family. This saddest quotation about Minnie just makes me cringe:Minnie Gowan felt sensible of being usually regarded as the wife of a man who had made a descent in marrying her, but whose chivalrous love for her had cancelled that inequality.
I thought in previous chapters Gowan felt slighted by his family for not providing better for him. Now he makes sure to "name drop" his family connections and go on and on about how poor he is. I wondered why Blandois allowed himself to be used. Surely he realizes that Gowan is no match for him, a murderer. It seems as though Blandois could possibly have a plan in mind already and Henry Gowan is the link to it all. Maybe Gowan is the one being used in actuality and Dickens has brilliantly created a scenario that will catch Gowan off guard in the future. Who know, I'm completely speculating here.
Sue, I agree that Dicken's writing is superb and the depth of this novel is exceptional. I had no idea, like you, before reading this even what it was about.
Sparkler's comic relief is fabulous. Dickens has certainly spanned the emotional ups and downs in this chapter.
Jean, I’m really amazed at the cleverness of Dickens writing here and so glad I’m reading this book…I know I’ve said that before. But I don’t think I realized that his skills ran book to book to book and were so great in books I had heard little about.
Jean, your summary touches on so many of the details and implications in this chapter and you make it seem effortless! I certainly hope everyone will read your lengthy and informative summary and then take a look at the illustrations, especially the one of Sparkler with his legs in the air.
Jean - my copy has the same illustration of Sparkler with his legs in the air. It’s wonderful!Lori - that’s great lateral thinking on your part. Perhaps Blandois is using Gowan rather than vice versa. In an odd way, I’d like to think that’s true but I hope they both get their comeuppance. We shall see!
I'm a dog lover (I have two dogs curled up at my feet as I type), so this was a sad chapter to read. It shocked me when Gowan beat Lion. But what an effective way of showing us Henry Gowan's true character. Before this chapter, I didn't quite know what to make of him. But now there is no doubt, he is bad news!The ending was even more shocking. I'm confident Blandois poisoned Lion. But why did he tell Amy? It was almost as if he was bragging about it.
As far as Fanny is concerned, I'm not too upset about the way she is treating Sparkler. She is trying to be a social climber, and Sparkler is the easiest way for her to gain access to Society; and he's already in love with her. Though as Fiona said, Fanny is kidding herself if she thinks Mrs. Merdle is going to be happy about this match.
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And thanks Lori :)
I love that picture! Thanks for posting that Jean. I needed to see a picture of a happy dog with a loving master :-)
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In the series Blandois/Rigaud also murders the woman he sleeps with the night he shares Cavalletto's room. It does not happen in the book, unless I missed something, did I?In the series he is a revolting character, more than he is in the book, you know the difference between words and images. Because of this I hope there will not be scenes with Lion :'(
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“All that she saw was new and wonderful, but it was not real; it seemed to her as if those visions of mountains and picturesque countries might melt away at any moment, and the carriage, turning some abrupt corner, bring up with a jolt at the old Marshalsea gate.”
And sitting on her balcony:
“As she liked no place of an evening half so well, she soon began to be watched for, and many eyes in passing gondolas were raised, and many people said, There was the little figure of the English girl who was always alone.”
It’s almost like she’s got some sort of PTSD.