Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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Detection Unlimited
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Detection Unlimited September Group Read 2021 SPOILERS thread
OMG! Mrs. Midgeholme and her Pekinese! What fabulous comic relief--the dogs' names are priceless!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "OMG! Mrs. Midgeholme and her Pekinese! What fabulous comic relief--the dogs' name are priceless!"True! I loved it when Miss Patterdale imagined standing in the street shouting "Urf, Urf, Urf!" Though, as a Shakespeare fan, it was great having two goats named Rosalind and Celia. The humor in Heyer's novels is one of my favorite features. :)
The Armstrong case (mentioned in this book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert...Detection Unlimited is also mentioned in this Wikipedia article - but they have the date of publication wrong. Is anyone here an editor on Wikipedia who could correct this? The correct publication date is on the list of Heyer books on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
I love Mr Biggleswade! Just wanted to get his picture in the paper and forgetting his teeth. 😄
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "The Armstrong case (mentioned in this book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert...Detection Unlimited is also mentioned in this Wikipedia article - but they have the date of public..."
Anyone can edit a Wikipedia article, but I'm happy to do it for you if you like. I just need a few minutes to verify the correct date.
Oh sorry I had the second link wrong. I have corrected it now.It is the date Detection Unlimited was first published that is wrong. The article on Armstrong gives it as 1944, but it was first published 1953.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
Barb in Maryland wrote: "OMG! Mrs. Midgeholme and her Pekinese! What fabulous comic relief--the dogs' names are priceless!"Yes, I got a lot of chuckles out of their scenes- and the names! Very funny that Mrs. M. started with U names, not a lot to go on, there…
Teri-K wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "OMG! Mrs. Midgeholme and her Pekinese! What fabulous comic relief--the dogs' name are priceless!"True! I loved it when Miss Patterdale imagined standing in the street sho..."
Same here, she delivers a good puzzle with quirky characters and a great deal of humor- can’t ask for more!
Katie wrote: "I love Mr Biggleswade! Just wanted to get his picture in the paper and forgetting his teeth. 😄"You told me to watch out for him, you were right!😂
Teri-K wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "The Armstrong case (mentioned in this book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert...Detection Unlimited is also mentioned in this Wikipedia article - b..."
Yes, I know but I'm a librarian on GR & I don't need another time suck like editing on Wikipedia! :)
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Teri-K wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "The Armstrong case (mentioned in this book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert...Detection Unlimited is also mentioned in this Wikipe..."
That's fine. :) I just wanted to make sure you knew you could. lol
Teri-K wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Teri-K wrote: "That's fine. :) I just wanted to make sure you knew you could. lol"
& thank you for the correction on Wikipedia! It was making my left eye twitch!
Just finished and I must say that this has become one of my favorites among her mysteries*. I loved Hemingway and Harbottle! I appreciated that GH gave a nod to Sandy Grant, and to previous cases. I enjoyed all of the minor characters--so varied and so well done. I do hope that Mr Biggleswade got his picture in the paper; he deserved it!(*my favorite is The Unfinished Clue)
This was my first time reading this book; I know it won't be the last.
A few random comments:
I picked the correct villain early on, but that was just because I wanted it to be him; he was such an obnoxious smart-ass.
I liked the lack of drama in the romance between Abby and Charles--neither was a suspect, so we didn't have to worry about them.
I'm taking my time reading this again. I laughed at Mrs. Midgeholm when she's scolding Mavis about claiming her uncle didn't have enemies. "I don't say it was his fault - though of course it was" lolI love the way Heyer mixes in some important information while Mrs. Midgeholm is just blathering on, so the reader tunes it out. It's clever. And her name - a midge is a small annoying insect that buzzes around your face and you swat it away or just try to ignore it - like the lady.
I'm sorry her mysteries didn't sell better. I'd love to have more of them to enjoy. I've never found anyone who writes quite like her.
I really enjoyed this character driven detective story. Some of them (like Mrs Midgeholme) were hilarious.I wondered if the Superintendent was meant to be Hannasyde. I just had a quick thumb through my copy & but of course I can't find him when I am looking for him! I know I had that thought with one of the previous Hemingway mysteries.
I have one leg longer than the other myself. I always wonder why Gavin didn't wear a lift in one shoe.
there is so much humor in this book. it would be easier to list the characters that don't provided comedy, but I'm not going to do that. the dignity of Hobkirk:
he now detected in him a certain lack of respect, combined with a deplorable levity, and he answered with quelling coldness: ‘I’m here, sir, to take charge of things till relieved. Properly speaking, you had ought to have notified me of this occurrence, when I should, in accordance with the regulations, have reported same to my headquarters in Bellingham.’
Drybeck is bullied by his employeeMr Drybeck, whose housekeeper did not allow him to dine at a late hour, was just sitting down to an extremely depressing Sunday supper
Mrs. MidgeholmMrs Midgeholme, overpowering in lilac foulard, came out of the drawing-room, and explained: ‘Oh! It’s the police! Well, really! On a Sunday!’
it's just about slapstick!
Miss Patterdale at that moment walked in at the open front-door. As she was accompanied by her lumbering canine friend, a scene of great confusion followed her entrance, Mrs Midgeholme uttering dismayed cries, and both the Ultimas bouncing at the labrador
but the police remain unfailingly patient with her.
But as for Thaddeus Drybeck, words fail me!’ The Inspector, placing no dependence on this statement, waited for her to continue.
I just find so many thing funny in this bookThe Sergeant placed a spatulate finger on the plan.
The slight discomfort which was too often provoked by Miss Warrenby’s nobler utterances descended upon the company.
and best of all, the comedy duo of a "bright-eyed and cheerful" Hemingway and "gloomy" Harbottle
I didn't like the detective novels as much as the Regencies when I first started reading Heyer, but over the years, I've come to appreciate them more for what they are - light, perhaps, often almost a comedy of manners, but none the worse for that. Sometimes the wickedly funny portrayal of certain characters hits home a bit more than in some of her other novels - perhaps because the period and society they portray aren't quite so far in the past. This time, I'm listening to an audio version. As it happens, I hadn't re-read (or listened to) this particular detective novel in a long time, and I'm enjoying it all the more because it isn't quite so familiar to me as some of the others. The characters are funny, but sometimes there's more behind them - like the Midgeholmes, who are looked on by most of the other characters as a military man who never achieved very much and his silly wife who is obsessed by her dogs. They may be that, but they're also a doting couple who support each other and are surprisingly resilient in face of the challenges posed by the last war and subsequent austerities. Still, who can help laughing at the Pekes and their absurd names!.
Cheryl wrote: "I didn't like the detective novels as much as the Regencies when I first started reading Heyer, but over the years, I've come to appreciate them more for what they are - light, perhaps, often almos..."You make such a good point about the Midgeholms. I really appreciate that Heyer pokes fun at her characters in these books, but she also seems to like them. They often have a dignity to them somewhere that makes me appreciate them more.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I have one leg longer than the other myself. I always wonder why Gavin didn't wear a lift in one shoe..."I think Gavin is one of those folks who enjoys being different and having a "reason" to be mean-spirited. He's had a lifetime to adjust to his leg, and lots of people have had more severe problems and turned out fine, but he has a bitter spirit and his leg is an excuse to indulge it at others expense, IMO."
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I really enjoyed this character driven detective story. Some of them (like Mrs Midgeholme) were hilarious.I wondered if the Superintendent was meant to be Hannasyde. I just had a quick thumb thro..."
Carol--Hemingway's immediate superior at Scotland Yard is Superintendent Hinckley. There we go with those "H" names...
He was definitely Hemingway's boss in Duplicate Death. I'm not sure about earlier books.
Yes I am wondering if GH originally got the name wrong - ie Hinckley instead of Hannasyde
Teri-K wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I have one leg longer than the other myself. I always wonder why Gavin didn't wear a lift in one shoe..."I think Gavin is one of those folks who enjoys being differ..."
Oh yeah, Gavin seems to enjoy being churlish. I disliked him so much I was glad he was the murderer.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Yes I am wondering if GH originally got the name wrong - ie Hinckley instead of Hannasyde"That thought also crossed my mind. Alas, we will never know...
Barb in Maryland wrote: "I think Gavin is one of those folks who enjoy..."
Same here! I'm wondering why he murdered his brother though. Not much money to inherit. Did Gavin not realise he probably wouldn't be able to sell the house?
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "I think Gavin is one of those folks who enjoy..."
Same here! I'm wondering why he murdered his brother though. Not much money to inherit. Did Gavin not realise he probabl..."
Good point, Carol. GH doesn't give us much motive for that murder, except the antipathy between the two men.
Am I the only one who did a double-take when the Lindales' history was revealed? Quite honestly, I was expecting to find that one or the other had a past run-in with the law.I am not sure how easy it would have been for 'Mrs' Lindale to have divorced her husband(Nenthall) for 'incompatibility'. Catholics certainly could get divorced in civil court; they can even remarry (in a non-RC ceremony), but the Church would consider said person to be 'living in sin'. How is this a bigger moral burden on Mrs Lindale than the situation she's currently in?
Anyway, I was puzzled at GH's choice of a backstory for that couple.
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Just finished and I must say that this has become one of my favorites among her mysteries*. I loved Hemingway and Harbottle! I appreciated that GH gave a nod to Sandy Grant, and to previous cases. ..."I didn’t pick him as the villain, but I did so want him to get a smack! I agree, this was fun, I’m so glad I finally read it, will definitely read again - I so enjoy her mysteries (except “Why Shoot a Butler?”), get all the sparkle, witty dialogue and quirky characters of her romances, but it seems to move along at a quicker pace for me - I guess because I’m a mystery fan.
Cheryl wrote: "I didn't like the detective novels as much as the Regencies when I first started reading Heyer, but over the years, I've come to appreciate them more for what they are - light, perhaps, often almos..."Yes, you really put your finger on it - humorous, but very real pain and love behind it - the last war has impacted so many people in so many lasting ways, and they’re trying to carry on as they always have, but with less. Reminds me of the best of Angela Thirkell’s post-war Barsetshire novels. They’re uneven, some just bitter, but the good ones really bring home the pain behind the “stiff upper lip”.
Teri-K wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "I didn't like the detective novels as much as the Regencies when I first started reading Heyer, but over the years, I've come to appreciate them more for what they are - light, perha..."Yes!
Teri-K wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I have one leg longer than the other myself. I always wonder why Gavin didn't wear a lift in one shoe..."I think Gavin is one of those folks who enjoys being differ..."
I agree - he seems to sadistically relish putting others on the spot, feel awkward and watching them squirm - makes sense, at the end (about his character, what he is capable of doing).
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Am I the only one who did a double-take when the Lindales' history was revealed? Quite honestly, I was expecting to find that one or the other had a past run-in with the law.I am not sure how easy it would have been for 'Mrs' Lindale to have divorced her husband(Nenthall) for 'incompatibility'. "
It would have been impossible in 1953, when this book was written. Only the aggrieved party (in this case, Nenthall) could file for divorce. It wasn't until the Divorce Reform Act in 1969 that people could end marriages that had "irretrievably broken down" without having to prove fault. They could end marriages after separation of two years, if both parties desired divorce, or five years if only one party desired divorce.
Cf https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/... and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce...
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Am I the only one who did a double-take when the Lindales' history was revealed? Quite honestly, I was expecting to find that one or the other had a past run-in with the law.I am not sure how easy..."
Yes, I thought it was pretty scandalous for the time and her usual style, and honestly expected more behind it. As it was presented, it explains the couple’s desire for privacy, avoiding questions- but rural county life as it was, they had to be incredibly naive to think they could just hang out and farm, play tennis with the locals, not get any probing questions about their lives, families, etc.
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "I think Gavin is one of those folks who enjoy..."
Same here! I'm wondering why he murdered his brother though. Not much money to inherit. D..."
No, now you mention it, I was so pleased it was him, and so proud of Hemingway for picking apart Gavin’s plot, that I didn’t really think about it. Also, all that talk about the Squire (I think) working himself to death over an estate with a distant heir in South Africa- I thought she was saying he was skimming off the profits? Something about a gravel pit? Anyway, I don’t think that lead to anything, but I wondered if Gavin was planning to sell off what he could, and got the impression from Hemingway’s snarky comments that he was hurting for money, and the estate gave him somewhere to hunker down?and Hemingway seems to imply, being a mystery writer, Gavin wanted to outwit the CID?
Doris wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "Am I the only one who did a double-take when the Lindales' history was revealed? Quite honestly, I was expecting to find that one or the other had a past run-in with the la..."Thanks, interesting. Having been raised Catholic, I know that would have been quite scandalous to get a divorce back then. Could be done, but still…
Doris wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "Am I the only one who did a double-take when the Lindales' history was revealed? Quite honestly, I was expecting to find that one or the other had a past run-in with the la..."Doris--thank you for that info. I had the feeling that divorce was not in the picture--it was the only way that storyline made sense. Well, Nenthall really was a rotter, then, to refuse to divorce his wife.
About Gavin's motive - the note says he was always borrowing money. If he couldn't make ends meet by writing I imagine he'd be happy living in the house, even if it was falling down around him. He doesn't entertain or anything and he doesn't seem to be trying to "live in style". I can see him killing his brother, living in the house as it crumbles, writing his books, (Heyer doesn't say they sell well, does she), and feeling nasty toward the world. Hemingway calls him conceited and "thinking he could run rings around anyone he chose"; he could happily bully people into doing things for him, or sell off items from the house to survive. He isn't worried about passing anything on to future generations, at least. (As for death duties, Heyer doesn't mention them so I won't either. lol)Also - Thanks for the info on divorce at the time. It makes the picture much clearer.
And I love Angela Thirkell! Especially her between-the-wars novels, I think.
Gavin would have made a good murder victim since you can imagine a lot of people getting angry enough at him to have a motive. I wish I could remember if I was surprised he was the murderer back when I first read the book! I fall for mis-direction so well I would guess I thought it was The Squire or Mr. Lindale.
Jackie wrote: "Gavin would have made a good murder victim since you can imagine a lot of people getting angry enough at him to have a motive. I wish I could remember if I was surprised he was the murderer back wh..."Gavin was so similar to( possible mild spoiler for other Gh books) (view spoiler)- I can't remember who I suspected in earlier reads- possibly one of the Lindales.
I remembered who the murderer was as soon as I started on this read though.
Teri-K wrote: "About Gavin's motive - the note says he was always borrowing money. If he couldn't make ends meet by writing I imagine he'd be happy living in the house, even if it was falling down around him. He ..."I agree with your interpretation of Gavin’s motive, and I had forgotten that part about him always borrowing money.
Thirkell is fun!
Jackie wrote: "Gavin would have made a good murder victim since you can imagine a lot of people getting angry enough at him to have a motive. I wish I could remember if I was surprised he was the murderer back wh..."I was suspecting those two as well- I’m always enjoying the story so much, I just go along with whatever Heyer puts out there!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "I think Gavin is one of those folks who enjoy..."
Same here! I'm wondering why he murdered his brother though. Not much money to inherit. D..."
I think the antipathy was a bit of a red herring - they were both bad-tempered, but the brother didn't really mean it and Gavin enjoyed being nasty. I think Gavin must have expected to inherit more - or perhaps, what he did inherit was enough to satisfy him although not enough to really live in style and keep the place up.
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Am I the only one who did a double-take when the Lindales' history was revealed? Quite honestly, I was expecting to find that one or the other had a past run-in with the law.I am not sure how easy..."
Aside from the legal impossibility of getting a divorce if the spouse fought it (as Doris mentioned), Mrs. Lindale was a devout Catholic, if currently not following church teaching. A secular divorce would not have been recognized by her church, even if one was available to her, and she might well have believed that by leaving her husband, she was breaking a vow she was morally bound to keep, which put her in a really difficult moral position. She might not have felt able to have a second marriage, thinking it was pointless to make another vow for life to a new man when she'd proven that really, she'd keep it only if she wanted to. There was probably an option of getting a legal separation (although some would oppose such a thing). I grew up in quite a traditional time and place, and some Protestants, never mind the Catholics, would not make a second marriage if the first one ended in divorce or legal separation. Even fornication (as it was called) was sometimes seen as better than taking a false vow! I expect nowadays, such views are a really dramatic demonstration of how a culture that often seems similar to ours, and which in fact is the culture from which ours derives, is actually very different. Now, even in the period and place of this novel, it was possible to get a divorce (assuming the spouse didn't fight it) or separation, but it was often strongly disapproved of. And living together like a married couple, well, that didn't make things better. Both the divorce and the living together common law might work for a decadent aristocrat or a free-thinking artistic type, but the Lindales are moving in much more conservative and traditional circles, as is shown that he gave up his job, and both families seem to have disapproved of them strongly. They're stuck. They either stay apart (with or without some kind of formal separation for Mrs. Lindale), try to enter a social group where they might find approval, but which is probably otherwise completely incompatible, or start again in a setting that generally suits them, but which requires them to hide their marital status.
Long story short, no, I wasn't surprised because I knew about the ideas and beliefs behind such situations, having read about them before.
Cheryl--Interesting ruminations!I think the root of my question was more 'why did GH pick that particular backstory for the Lindales'? Why didn't she use the 'jail time/ other problems with the law' reason? (view spoiler). Did she feel the need for something different?
As someone mentioned up thread--choosing a rural life was not going to help the Lindales stay 'under the radar'.
Finished! I enjoyed it, mainly for the characters and the humor. I pegged the villain almost immediately, because the person who seems the least likely to do it somehow turns out to have done it! Maybe it reminded me of other mysteries where the villain confesses only to be proven innocent at first (protecting a loved one or some such) and then to be dismissed as a suspect. I enjoyed seeing how it was done, and how Hemingway figured it all out. I don't know why he killed his brother, and I wonder how far in advance he planned it. Did he annoy his brother on purpose around May 5 to induce that letter to be written?
I liked the visit to the enormous family - the chaotic atmosphere that really threw Hemingway for a minute.
I think it might just be that such marriage problems were known in real life, and quite common in fiction. At the same time, the reader might have less sympathy for an ex-con than for someone with a nasty spiteful husband. As for the small town, I grew up in one, and agree that's the LAST place to live in if you want to keep your private history private! Still, some people don't realize this. in addition, I wonder if being a farmer was their best option? Any kind of professional life back then would require a spouse with an impeccable background, and Mr. L. probably didn't have the education to go into industry.
I liked the visit to the enormous family - the chaotic atmosphere that really threw Hemingway for a minute that's one of my favorite scenes in the book!
Georgette Heyer Fans
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This is GH's final detective novel. She enjoyed working with her husband & writing them, but they didn't pay as well as the Regencies.