Outlander Series discussion
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'Swiftest of Lizards'
I don't really like Emily either. I am glad that Ian now knows that he can father children. I hope he finds a way to be a part of this little boys life though.
I think that's his "spirtual" son, but not actually his real son.
I think it's his real son. I wonder if Outlandish Companion II will have a timeline...I need one.
Is there going to be an Outlandish Companion II? I haven't heard. That will certainly help out a lot. I also think it is his real son. I think Ian knew as soon as he saw the look on Emily's face when he said that the boy was his to name.
Yes, it's his son. Apparently she had a loaf in the oven when Ian was kicked out, she just maybe didn't know it yet. Poor Ian! She said she loved him and then she can't even look him in the eye so that he'll see she doesn't anymore. And he only told his dad about it. No one else.It's just Jamie and Geneva all over again except there's Sun Elk who thinks he's the daddy. The smarmy b*stard. I'm glad Ian got to punch him out.
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I think that DG's website said she was working on an Outlandish II. And I didn't think that was his son since Emily offered to let him name the new baby but he chose to name the older boy instead. Wasn't that the way it happened?
He said "this one is mine to name" or something like that, and Emily looked at him in shock but acknowledged it.
I am excited about an Outlandish II. Ashley, yes that is the way it happened but, Ian chose to name the older boy because he was his son.
Wait, I thought Ian was kicked out very soon after Emily have birth to the girl (Isobeal), so there wouldn't have been time for Ian to get her pregnant.I was thinking Emily's oldest was going to be Ians if it had been a girl. Like maybe they told him she had died, but hadn't. I didn't think the boy was Ian's real son, just a spirit of Ian. SOmeone needs to have DG clarify that.
I thought it was several months after the baby died and that they had been trying and trying to get pregnant again all the while Sun Elk was waiting to swoop in and get rid of Ian. Then the grandmother finally said that Ian must go. I think there was time for her to get pregnant and that Swiftest of Lizards is Ian's child.
I thought Emily miscarried like 3 times, 2 times shortly after becoming pregnant.
I am going to go back and find it tonight and re-read it and try to figure it out. Although if I have to do to much math I will be in trouble. I think Ian will be a great father and I hope he gets to be involved in little Lizards life. Interesting story line to be sure.
I was under the impression that Ian did have time to get her pregnant before he was asked to leave. Didn't it say in the book that after the birth of Isobeal that Ian started to notice Emily and Sun Elk makin' eyes at each other? I thought they had time to keep trying before he finally left. I also assumed that when "Emily looked at him in shock" when he chose to name the boy, it was because she knew that Ian knew that it was really his son. And I figured she was offering for him to name the baby because she felt guilty about his son.
So confusing! I hope DG does clarify this at some point...
Sarah, that was the exact impression I got from the reading too.
Shai wrote: "Will somebody PLEASE recount the Laoghaire & Jamie exchange in this book? I absolutley HATE her (for obvious reasons) and Jamie's behavior in the 5th book after finding out Laoghaire was sleeping w..."Uhm... No, not even close. He was bothered by Laoghaire only on a strict, "I am MAN, hear me roar", sense. He had been fond of her at one point, and really tried to make a go of their marraige. She hated having sex with him, so when he heard she had a lover, his ego was bruised on a pure vanity level. Nothing more...
Shell wrote: "Shai wrote: "Will somebody PLEASE recount the Laoghaire & Jamie exchange in this book? I absolutley HATE her (for obvious reasons) and Jamie's behavior in the 5th book after finding out Laoghaire w..."Very good explanation I'd say!
Jamie probably wondered how come she had a lover when it was obvious she hated having sex with him. (Got to wonder why...:P)
Shai wrote: "Will somebody PLEASE recount the Laoghaire & Jamie exchange in this book? I absolutley HATE her (for obvious reasons) and Jamie's behavior in the 5th book after finding out Laoghaire was sleeping w..."Why didn't you read the last two?
Just curious...
I just can't imagine starting some book or series and not finishing it...
Alex wrote: "Shell wrote: "Shai wrote: "Will somebody PLEASE recount the Laoghaire & Jamie exchange in this book? I absolutley HATE her (for obvious reasons) and Jamie's behavior in the 5th book after finding o..."Well, she didn't like having sex with Jamie because 1)Jamie called out Claire's name in his sleep once and 2)she knew he didn't care about her. As she says in Echo when she tells him off.
I'm a Loaghaire fan. I'm glad she found someone with whom she could be happy. Even if he's not tall, red-haired and handsome. That obviously did not matter to her. She wanted love,
I never even considered it was his real son, I didn't get that implication at all. But I did some research and the boy was 5 when he met him in 1777. He came back from the Mohawk in 1772, that's 5 years so it's very possible. I hope not! I refuse to believe it happened tho.... Emily was probably already hooking up with Sun Elk and got prego so had Ian leave.
I didn't think it was his real son either with what Claire said and Emily leaving Ian because she kept losing the baby.
The boy is definitely Ian's son.The fact that his grandmother told him Ian is his father, but that he should never mention it around Sun Elk sealed the deal for me.
I agree Lori, that was the meaning I got. The feeling of Ian's pride just shone off the page.
I came away convinced he was Ian's son, too. That's why Ian insisted on naming him. I'm hoping they'll meet up again in a future book.
I agree the boy is Ian's son. I think Diana even confirmed this somewhere on the compuserve sight...but don't have the energy to go search for it.
oops meant compuserve "site" obviously! LOL
I belong to the compuserve forum so I sent asked Diana for clarification. She seems to respond pretty regularly to people when they ask questions, I'll keep everyone up to date with what she says.If you want to check it out yourself here is the link post #94:
http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx...
I hope we find out soon!!!
looks like she is neither going to confirm or deny....says it doesn't matter to Ian and shouldn't matter to us! inquirying minds want to know!
I doubt we've seen the last of SOL so hopefully when he pops back up in later books maybe more on this subject will come out.
To me it should be fairly apparent one way or the other. He would be pure indian if Sun Elk is his bio father and half white if he were Ian's.
But if Diana is unconcerned about this we may never know........
This is directly from Diana, so guess we just don't know. But signs point to no... :-)Dear Jessica--
We don't know. IF Claire's supposition regarding an Rh incompatibility is correct, then Swiftest of Lizards almost certainly isn't Ian's, because that's a problem that grows more severe with each pregnancy; it doesn't go away, or occur only sometimes. On the other hand, she couldn't possibly tell that without doing blood tests on both Ian and Emily. It doesn't matter to Ian, so I don't think it ought to matter to the readers.
--Diana
www.dianagabaldon.com
http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx...
yeah the compuserve boards are pretty cool that way! if she is in town and actively reading the boards she will answer your questions.she may roll her eyes or answer in a way that makes you feel stupid though so watch what/how you ask! LOL
mostly she is very gracious and giving of her time and seems to like a good discussion.
it is a big board and fast moving so a bit hard to keep up with.
There are 67 pages on the whole Claire/Lord John discussion alone.
Diana chimed in quite a lot on that thread and really helped answer questions/doubts of many people (like me) who had a problem with the scene.
I came away with a grudging acceptance of it after following that thread.
Back to the Ian discussion. I was just re-reading (well listening to) Echo and just finished this part. The first time I read it I was thinking the boy was Ian's but now I'm not so sure.THe great great grandma told the boy he was the spirit child of Ian.
The thing that clinched it for me is when the boy wanted the lizard. ian asked him what he would do with it and he said, "I will name him and he will be mine, then he will always know me." I think Ian is saying that by naming the boy, he is his even if he isn't his genetic son.
The nice thing about it is that we can all choose for ourselves if we think Swiftest of Lizards is Ian's son. I personally choose to believe that he is. First, his Grandmother told him that he was the son of Ian's spirit. Ian explained earlier to Bree that the Native American's believed that it is a man’s and woman's spirit that battled and if the woman's was defeated she became pregnant. So basically she was saying that it was Ian's 'spirit' that defeated Emily's which makes him Ian's son. (We know it is not a spirit, but his little spermies but I still think that the grandmother was saying the same thing.) It is possible for a couple to have multiple miscarriages and still make a baby. I hate Emily for leaving Ian, but I want Ian to know that he has a son. I was so happy for him when he discovered Swiftest of Lizards.
I am with you Wendy! I think the only way to know for sure would be a DNA test and obviously that isn't possible. I do believe that the Grandmother believes he is Ian's biological son. I am also very happy for him.
I'm sticking with the "spirit son" idea for now, just because of that whole Rh factor. I mean, if that comes out not to be an issue, then all Ian's guilt about Emily's past miscarriages might come back as well, and I like the new "lighter" Ian. I think Ian is comfortable with the idea of a "spirit" son, and with the idea of "name him and he will be mine", because that's essentially what Jamie did with Fergus, right? Also, SOL will give Ian a sense of both closure and connection to the Mowhawk, no matter what happens ltare in the story.
I dont' think we'll ever know whether or not there is an Rh factor issue. Claire said that she couldn't find out because those tests aren't possible in their time, and his next wife might not be a problem. I think this will be one of those things that will never get answered. It does make for an interesting debate.
Carolyn F. wrote: "I didn't think it was his real son either with what Claire said and Emily leaving Ian because she kept losing the baby."But with Clairs theory on rh positive and negitive, while it was more likely the dominate trait will express itself much more often, there is a small chance that after so many tries they could have had a child concieved with the 2 ressessive traits(more rare, doesn't happen often) that would have survived, where as the others died.
I believe he is his son!
Not to mention that Claire was guessing that it was the RH factor. There are many miscarriages that happen not caused by RH. Mommabear - I think so too.
But did DG describe SL as a Mohawk kid? I thought that she did. If he is Ian's then he would be half Scot, right? (if so, then he would look somewhat like Ian too.) So in this case, I have to go with the "spirit" son.
There are lots of children who look like one parent and nothing of the other, and there are lots of kids who grow into their parents features. For all we know maybe the features he got from Ian are ones that are shadowed by the distinct features which are so much like his Emily's.
Digging up an old thread here, but going through this part of my Echo re-read brought this question up for me again. Apparently DG has confirmed it is not Ian's child since this thread happened. A friend told me some fans were worried Ian would go back to Emily in the future, because they thought this was his kid, and DG confirmed it was not and he would not go back to Emily. If I can find a link for that exchange, I will post it here.
I found a reference from DG in FB that states, since Ian thinks SOL is his son, why should we not believe that? https://www.facebook.com/AuthorDianaG...
Teresa wrote: "I found a reference from DG in FB that states, since Ian thinks SOL is his son, why should we not believe that? https://www.facebook.com/AuthorDianaG..."He isn't Ian's bio son, but it's ok with Ian. I thought I posted the link here, but now I don't see it. She wrote on compuserve that he is not Ian's biological son, but son of his spirit, as the Indians believe. I'll try to repost the link.
Here's the comment from DG and the link to CS "Dear Sheila--
Well, bear in mind that the Mohawk view of conception is that the man's spirit battles with and overcomes the woman's spirit, in order for the fetus to be planted. So when Tewaktehnyonh says the child is the son of Ian's spirit, she isn't necessarily saying that he's Ian's biological son--but she _is_ saying he's Ian's _real_ son.
--Diana "
http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx...
Granted, this is the same woman who said there's no proof Frank cheated, and then in DoA, Frank confesses that he was unfaithful to her, so I think she likes us to be confused!
She doesn't actually say for sure that he's not, just that Tewaktehnyonh 'isn't necessarily' saying that he's definitely Ian's biologically. Basically I think she's just trying to leave it for us to discuss and debate. It's not like when she said that the drunken man playing piggie toes with Claire's feet was definitely Jamie.Also, I'm pretty sure that when DG says there's no proof that Frank cheated she means prior to Claire going back in time when they were both of working in the war. Not later when she'd returned to him after Jamie.
To me she is saying he is not biologically Ian's son, but his son of the spirit. I guess you can take her words and make them work however you want.....
That is very true. I suppose I just read it as though she's telling you what a character believes, not what is fact. I honestly believe that she wants to leave us readers the same way she left Ian. He'll never know for sure, thus we'll never know for sure.
Ian was offered the chance to name Emily's and Sun Elk's youngest but he named her eldest saying, "This one is mine to name."Contrary to DG's view on RH, a women with Rh neg paired with an Rh + man can have many miscarriages and/or still births and still have healthy live children. It all depends on the individual mix of genes.
I know because I had 12 early Rh miscarriages [2 to 6 wks] and 5 very healthy children. [3 of whom came after the miscarriages]
I posted this ages ago, but looks like the conversation was in Echo. This is the word directly from DG & her assistant. ---
I am officially crushed!
The final word on Swiftest of Lizards is...
Diana has stated that no, SoL is not Ian's biological child. Ian claims the boy as his "spirit child" because he feels that this is the child that SHOULD have been born to him and Emily, because his own spirit was still so drawn to Emily even after she kicked him out. Remember, the Mohawk believed that a man's "spirit" had to conquer that of the woman for a child to be born. Maybe Ian feels that because he has survived the split and his severe depression after Emily, his spirit has triumphed after all and this "child of his spirit" is the result.
Here is a link where Diana addressed this in her CompuServe Forum: Swiftest of Lizards - who's your daddy?
You can scroll down through the forum to read the many comments regarding this as Diana continues to add clarification.
http://forums.compuserve.com/discussi...
I usually don't get into dream casting characters but I was watching A Night at the Museum yesterday with my girls and I found the perfect young Ian for me. The boy that plays Larry's son is Skylar Gisando and her would be perfect for a Voyager age Ian. I can see him aging with the show too and looking older with the tattoos also. Check him out:https://www.pinterest.com/jessfleener...
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