Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Boccaccio, The Decameron
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Day Three
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Susanna wrote: "Why so much cat fishing in these stories? Tricking someone with a false identity is integral to many of the tales."Good question. For me the whole disguise motif is used so frequently that it's starting to lose its novelty. It's almost expected at this point.
But maybe we have to look beyond the "trickiness" of it to the symbolic level. Disguise gives the character freedom to be something or someone else, an escape from whatever status they're trapped in. A woman gains power when she disguises herself as a man, or a groom gains power when he disguises himself as the King. Maybe that transformation opens up the question of power and its proper use.
I was intrigued by Neiphile's story, #9: Giletta gets herself pregnant by her reluctant husband by impersonating his paramour. It is the one story that has no extramarital sex in it. On the other hand, Dioneo's story (#10, about putting the devil in hell) features the rape by fraud of a 14-year-old girl. However, she's not yet a Christian, so maybe it's not so bad. Then there's Philostrato's story (#1) in which Masetto works himself into a gig as stud for an entire nunnery. Do the men on average tell more transgressive stories than the women? For most of the latter's stories, the action involves merely wives or widows looking for a little adventure.
After a lifetime of reading et al, these don't seem like "new" stories. However, some background reading (e.g., Brown U. site) has suggested big shifts in perceptions of gender-related sexual pleasure over the centuries. Anyone recall anything in Freud's biographies about his awareness of Boccaccio's tales?
The premise of Story 7 sounds completely far fetched to me. I found Story 3 to be the most believable and vivid. I could see it as a Netflix series. 😀
Roger wrote: "Do the men on average tell more transgressive stories than the women? For most of the latter's stories, the action involves merely wives or widows looking for a little adventure. "That sounds right, on average, but the women's stories don't exactly glorify principled behavior either. Pampinea's stories come the closest to having noble conclusions, maybe because she is the eldest. There's no lack of youthfulness, or perhaps it's immaturity, in these stories. Principles like fidelity are pitched against human appetites, and appetites always have the last laugh.
Thomas wrote: "Roger wrote: "Do the men on average tell more transgressive stories than the women? For most of the latter's stories, the action involves merely wives or widows looking for a little adventure. "T..."
I would also mention Nephile's story as one with a noble conclusion (at least for this day). Interestingly, it reversed the common trope when disguise is the way for adultery. In this case, it is the way for presuming and consummation of marriage. The story could be a good antithesis for the theme of the day. But then the wild story of Dioneo came.
Neiphile's story raises the question of whether the end justifies the means. In this case, the end is morally conventional, which makes it stand out amongst stories which go against moral conventions. Many of theses stories infidelity for granted, as if falling in love with other people's spouses is the norm. Emilia's story about Tedaldo, for example. Tedaldo falls in love with the wife of Aldobrandino and "Because of his many admirable qualities, Tedaldo deserved to have his desires gratified..." The whole story is grounded on this morally questionable premise without judgement.
Thomas wrote: "Neiphile's story raises the question of whether the end justifies the means. In this case, the end is morally conventional, which makes it stand out amongst stories which go against moral conventio..."This stood out for me as well. Do you think the characters find it justified to act upon an infectuation and cheat? Don't forget that all of them (seem to) belong to the nobility, where marriage is often an arrangement between two families and at least the girl has almost no say in who she ends up with.
That this is accepted by them as normal practice also becomes clear in the stories, where from an of course beautiful girl is said that, for some reason, her family hasn't arranged a marriage yet or that she is married off to some rich but old/ otherwise insufficient man.
By the way: are the houses/palaces they stay at their own? I got the idea they were just kind of making use of someone elses wealth, merely making them high class squatters.That being said: how does this then relate to the initial purpose of the trip of staying astray from the wrecked ways the people in the city dealt with the plague? Same goes of course for the stories and the games that seem to be played between the characters.
(I may have missed somethin though, so the party may in fact be staying at their own property)
Marieke wrote: "This stood out for me as well. Do you think the characters find it justified to act upon an infectuation and cheat? "So far there seems to be a divide between the characters who tell the stories and the characters in the stories they tell. Despite the fact that three of the men and three of the women have a love interest in each other, there is no mention of their feelings for each other. All amorous behavior is all kept safely within the frame of the stories they tell.
On the other hand, the author says in his preface that "the ladies of whom I have been speaking will be able to derive not only pleasure from the entertaining material they contain, but useful advice as well, for the stories will teach them how to recognize what they should avoid, and likewise, what they should pursue."
So are these supposed to be morality tales, or are they just for entertainment?
Marieke wrote: "By the way: are the houses/palaces they stay at their own? I got the idea they were just kind of making use of someone elses wealth, merely making them high class squatters.."In the Day 1 Introduction Pampinea suggests that "We should go and stay on one of our various country estates..." But when they arrive at their new digs in Day 3 the author says that the palace is elegant and well appointed, leading them to believe that "the owner knew how to live in the grand style," which makes it sound like it doesn't belong to one of them.
The safety and security they feel makes me think that maybe there was an eviction moratorium in place.
Also, what's up with that fountain?
Thomas wrote: "which makes it sound like it doesn't belong to one of them.They also said in the first introduction that all their male relatives died, therefore they cannot easily find men to escort them out of the city. (But Pampinea and one of the three boys are related, hmm.) Maybe one of them inherited the estate?
Thomas wrote: "Also, what's up with that fountain?"
I'm more curious about the water mills than the fountain itself.
A lot of the stories are preceded by an intro that talks about how the main agent in the story cannot control or hold back and deal with their "love" for someone, other tales have tricksters who find out they can't cope with the ladies' excessive sexual demands. And here we have a "paradise" with an energetic fountain channeling water through mills "to the considerable advantage of the owner."
" The water that overflowed the brimming fountain was carried away from it through a hidden conduit and then rose to the surface in a series of beautiful, ingeniously contrived little channels that completely encircled the lawn."
"if Paradise could be created on earth, they could not imagine it having any other form."
Maybe ingenious inventions that channel excess is what it takes to bring about a techno-paradiso?
Although, he did talk about "encircled" lawns, almost as though we're still touring Dante's Inferno bolgia...
Thomas wrote: "...which makes it sound like it doesn't belong to one of them. ..."I haven't figured out the housing either -- the group seems to travel with a retinue of support. Now, does that include grooms, chefs, servers, gardeners, chambermaids, men servants, laundresses, ....? Or are those contributions of their host(esse)s hospitality at the various abodes?
Are these country estates traditionally used much as moderns use condos et al, most heavily in particular seasons? Or are these places vacated because of the plague -- which doesn't seem to quite fit the ambiences of the stories? (I think of Edgar Allan Poe's The Masque of the Red Death and only remember that the Plague chooses to appear at the masked ball. But I don't have a sense of expecting similar here.)
Lia wrote: "Maybe ingenious inventions that channel excess is what it takes to bring about a techno-paradiso?Although, he did talk about "encircled" lawns, almost as though we're still touring Dante's Inferno bolgia... ."
There is something to this, I think. If the fountain is a metaphor for a kind of primal force, then the intricate channels and the water mills are emblematic of the human ingenuity that harnesses this force for a certain end. The stories in Day 3 treat fortune as a similar kind of primal force that can be diverted and harnessed by human resourcfullness to achieve a certain end.
But it remains an open question what that end is, and whether it is good or not. This is not an open question for Dante, but maybe it is for Boccaccio.
The concentric circles also make me wonder if these characters are actually going anywhere -- as opposed to Dante, who had helpful guides and a definite destination.
I definitely noticed very questionable justifications and reasoning in a couple of the stories in this reading and will be keeping better notes on it in the future ;)It is interesting to see how many of these stories have been mined by later authors. In Neifile’s Tale this week (#9), I recognize the plot of a Shakespearean comedy.
As for the characters in the brigata, I’m still struggling to distinguish many of them.
One thing I’ve noticed is in almost all the stories the main characters have not only names but places of origin as if those help,establish the “truth” of the story.
It is hard for me to realize the extent to which these stories have been inspiration to artists. Of course, the equivalent of our age would be videos, et al. But for a few looks backward to earlier takes on these stories, some of you might enjoy the links embedded in this earlier (~2014) discussion of Boccaccio's tales (Day 3 related) : https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
(I'll probably link stories 6-10 of Day 3 tomorrow. I want to make this work of almost seven years ago available here, but I also don't want to get in the way of the current discussion, so will delay by at least a week from our schedule here. Some of this earlier Goodreads group's posts can best be linked on our research thread, but where a previous thread is tightly connected to a week on our current schedule, it is probably more useful here, albeit delayed from our fresh 2021 responses to the text?)
As a few of you may remember, when we tackled Dante my particular contribution was to try to locate visualizations for us across the centuries of that great piece of literature. I'm not up to that kind of exploration for The Decameron, but it is my hope the work of Goodreads colleagues from these records can be of use again, augmenting and without getting in the way of 2021 thoughts about these stories.
Thanks for the link, Lily. I know very little about medieval art, but it strikes me that the perspective in those illustrations is a little bit off. There is an attempt at perspective, but it's out of whack.The tales are similar in a way -- they don't develop characters or focus on the people so much as they do the action. As readers we have to imagine what kind of people Ciapalleto and Masseto and Giletta are -- we have to provide that perspective ourselves, based on the action of the story.
Thomas wrote: "Thanks for the link, Lily. I know very little about medieval art, but it strikes me that the perspective in those illustrations is a little bit off. There is an attempt at perspective, but it's out..."I just lost a comment I tried to compose! Let me start again to say I'm sorry to be so slow to respond, but your comment, even its very words sent my thinking about TD in multiple directions.
First, I pulled the hefty Janson's History of Art: The Western Tradition from its spot alongside my sofa and spent a little time looking at art from the late 1300's. Certainly there was far richer variety and use of sophisticated visual perspectives than the examples of TD illustrations from the French National Library (gallica links).
One comment (of many) encountered along the way that I found insightful: "Think of the little towered cities, and the villages, with shepherds and sheep, in the far distance, behind the Virgin Mary or St. Francis or whomever, in ... paintings. Love of the world: these painters had it, and so, Moravia says, did Boccaccio."(view spoiler) This was a world where the plague decimated palaces and artisans created markets -- transition from Medieval to Renaissance?
Lily wrote: "Thomas wrote: "...The tales are similar in a way -- they don't develop characters or focus on the people so much as they do the action...."But your comments, Thomas, led me to think about how was I reading TD: for the stories, with all their sometimes over-the-top representations of human behavior; for the introduction to a panoply of characters and settings that might, like Falstaff or Aphrodite or ..., be expected to reappear in other guises in other stories or even in poems like Coleridge's "The Garden of Boccaccio", (view spoiler); or for a plot that entailed the lives, intentions, romances of the story-tellers; or in some still other modus operandi of reading.
In the meantime, I shall just try to listen and to enjoy the interplay of story and language between Rebhorn and Naxos.
@19 Lily wrote: "I'll probably link stories 6-10 of Day 3 tomorrow..."I'm running a bit (okay, more than "a bit") slow on The Decameron. (My excuses are the need to finish a book for f2f group and receiving the just released book authored by a friend. (view spoiler) But here is the promised link to the final five stories of Day Three, with more images posted by Book Portrait and commentaries largely provided by ReemK10:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Three of the things that have struck me, among others, of course, about these stories have been: 1) recognizing the "universal faith" of the original reading/listening audience was Catholic (this is entirely pre-Reformation, largely post-pagan, and not Islamic, Buddhist, ...) 2) the Renaissance mercantile slant of the trickster, self-interest, worldly, ... 3) the seeming competition with Dante for literary laurels, i.e., in scope, albeit in contrast, and in bending the spoken language to literary excellence.Given the level of literacy of the time, I find myself wondering how and where these tales were shared.
It was also pre-printing--it had to circulate in manuscript copies only. Who would put that much effort into these perhaps light and frivolous stories?
Roger wrote: "It was also pre-printing--it had to circulate in manuscript copies only. Who would put that much effort into these perhaps light and frivolous stories?"That is part of what makes copies like this one so amazing to me!?
https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/obj...
Who read to whom from codices like these? What were more ordinary copies like?
Do they foretell a bit of Machiavelli? (1513?) Boccaccio supposedly repudiated the work later in his life, yet recopied/rewrote it into the form that is ostensibly the usual source for translations as they have come down through history.
Literary verisimilitude and mimesis seem to be at the center of discussions of the significance of what Boccaccio created in The Decameron -- both concepts that tend to go over my head, but seem to be expressions about what can truthfully be described about human actions and being through the use of words/language. Erich Auerbach, known for his Mimesis has said something along the lines that Boccaccio dithers when he approaches morality issues. Not sure what that means. I think back to our read of The Pilgrim's Progress . It feels as if there are tensions between the allegorical representation of man (medieval?) and more open and free form and modern, but I may be whistling Dixie -- certainly with literary naivety.
Thomas wrote: "So are these supposed to be morality tales, or are they just for entertainment?"Finally trying to catch up with you guys a little :-)
To your question, I think they are both. On the surface they are all entertaining and some are definitely a little raunchy, but there is also social criticism with moral implications and more. In the case where you have a husband that is much older than the young beautiful wife, most of the time you are really not matched up well. He is past the vigor of youth and she doesn't get the attention she naturally seeks. Story #10 on Day 2 definitely had that undertone - with a happy ending.
On the surface story #1 is very much an erotic dream of a young man. Imagine you had a whole convent of willing females vying for your attentions and no responsibilities for the natural consequences? ... Underneath I see the common situation of many women at the time who lived behind cloistered walls not because they had a true vocation to the religious life but because their families expected it from them, or they had become spinsters or widows and needed a safe place to live to no longer be a burden on their families. If looked at from this perspective, isn't the virile gardener (think of this image!) an erotic dream for the sisters?
Story #4 in this segment is an interesting one. Here you have a husband and lay brother who is more concerned with penances and rattling off his paternosters than paying attention to his wife (and marriage). Overdoing penances and piling on prayers in an arithmetic fashion in order to gain salvation, along the lines of the more the better, is not a spiritually sound practice. It was done a lot in the Middle Ages and beyond, and spiritual masters then and now have always cautioned against the practice. Even though framed as a comedy, this is a cautionary tale. Being a pious man and a lay brother is commendable, but not at the expense of your marriage. There has to be a balance.
24Roger wrote: "...However, she's not yet a Christian, so maybe it's not so bad...."Is your tongue in cheek, Roger?
(I thank Susanna @2 for introducing the term "catfishing." She sent me to Google to understand -- and to turn around and share the term with a (lawyer) friend whose ~90+ year-old-mother has been "catfished" into purchasing and having delivered a grand piano -- using the term for being bamboozled in a non-sexual context. Maybe my friend's mother can relate to such terminology? -- AARP can use the term to alert its members? There's my word for the day again: verisimilitude? The representation of reality, in this case, the reality of deception.)
Lily wrote: "24Roger wrote: "...However, she's not yet a Christian, so maybe it's not so bad...."Is your tongue in cheek, Roger?
(I thank Susanna @2 for introducing the term "catfishing." She sent me to Goog..."
Indeed.
Kerstin wrote: "On the surface story #1 is very much an erotic dream of a young man. Imagine you had a whole convent of willing females vying for your attentions and no responsibilities for the natural consequences? "No, I'm not going to answer that question. But the question does highlight a common theme running through the Decameron, one that reminds me of the Ring of Gyges story in the Republic. Are people by nature "virtuous" or are they only virtuous when they are held accountable for their actions?
Of course, these are only stories told for entertainment by people who are by all accounts virtuous themselves. I wonder though, what do virtuous people find so entertaining about such mischievous stories? Are they able to admit through the stories that perhaps they themselves are not entirely what they appear to be?
They are sensible of the pleasure of licentiousness, they just don't succumb to the temptation.
Thomas wrote: "No, I'm not going to answer that question. But the question does highlight a common theme running through the Decameron, one that reminds me of the Ring of Gyges story in the Republic. Are people by nature "virtuous" or are they only virtuous when they are held accountable for their actions?..."
The fear of being held accountable for one's actions definitely plays a role, together with conscience, empathy, etc. If somebody lacks those qualities, only fear would stop him from acting maliciously.
What I find interesting about Boccaccio's stories is that even if we're dealing with practicing Christians believing in an omniscient God, nobody is really afraid of God's judgment, they only care about not being caught by other people.
Regarding the first story, I don't see anyone acting maliciously. Masetto found a way to offer some pleasure to the sisters (and to himself of course) without troubling anyone. The only malicious thing I see is a system where men and women are more or less forced to practice abstinence. The introduction for Day 4 makes me think that Boccacio would agree.
Emil wrote: "...without troubling anyone. ..."(Grin) As if running a home for children conceived and born without dual parents to support them was no trouble at all for anyone?
But quite possibly a pretty civil (even accepted?) social solution in its day....
Susanna wrote: "Your welcome. Yes, catfishing is a huge problem for older folks. My aunt has a friend who sent almost all of her money to ..."A 21st century pandemic tale? (And I know it isn't only pandemic, but our very era. But perhaps one a modern day Boccaccio would weave....)
Emil wrote: "What I find interesting about Boccaccio's stories is that even if we're dealing with practicing Christians believing in an omniscient God, nobody is really afraid of God's judgment, they only care about not being caught by other people."I think the answer lies in the setting of the Plague and its ramifications. One third of the population perished. Not only were entire towns wiped out, entire regions were de-populated throughout Europe. This is devastating on so many levels. It tears at the very fabric of society. When you know the plague could take you out at any moment, the way you look at piety and morality is shifted dramatically one way or the other. In essence, the world has turned upside-down, and an upside-down world produces upside-down stories.
A great example here of upside-down morality is story #7 with Tedaldo and Monna Ermellina. Tedaldo firmly believes he has been jilted by the married Ermellina. He firmly believes he has a right to commit adultery with her. When he finds out that during confession a priest, who sticks to right-side-up morality, had reminded her of her adulterous behavior and she should cease, Tedaldo lectures her and goes on a massive rant. In the end the upside-down "reality" is restored, and they continue their adulterous relationship.
In an interesting twist, Tedaldo's rant of condemning the Church and the often insincere religious indirectly touches upon the 14th century scandal of the Avignon Papacies that further destabilized society with their geopolitical maneuvers, nepotism, and simony (the buying and selling of ecclesial offices). Guiding the faithful or keeping order among their own ranks was of little importance. It was a colossal mess.
Thanks, Kerstin, that's an intriguing perspective. The problem is that the plague is never mentioned in the stories. We can assume that this topic is simply avoided and mentioning the plague is taboo, but most of the plots won't make any sense in a plague-stricken society.
Emil wrote: "....but most of the plots won't make any sense in a plague-stricken society. ..."Do they bear any semblance to the tales that have been being told the last couple of years in our Covid-19 world? I haven't been watching popular TV or films -- I am no judge, and am not even certain making a comparison is relevant.
Kerstin wrote: "When you know the plague could take you out at any moment, the way you look at piety and morality is shifted dramatically one way or the other. In essence, the world has turned upside-down, and an upside-down world produces upside-down stories. ."I wonder if an argument could be made that the stories the individuals tell are mirrors of their souls. They are all protected from the plague by the frame of the Decameron, inside which they move from one Edenic paradise to another. But they carry their souls with them. They can escape the world of the plague, but they can't escape the desire and the joy -- or the resentment and despair --that they carry with them inside.
Thomas wrote: "They are all protected from the plague by the frame of the Decameron, inside which they move from one Edenic paradise to another. But they carry their souls with them. They can escape the world of the plague, but they can't escape the desire and the joy -- or the resentment and despair --that they carry with them inside."I feel the same, but I don't think this was Boccaccio's intention.
He borrowed many of the stories from older sources and often combined different plots from different cultures to make up a tale. Even if Boccaccio heavily altered the stories to fit the 14th century, he used the plague only as a plot device for constructing his frame narrative, he deliberately avoided mentioning it in the stories.
Maybe the "desire and the joy or the resentment and despair" we're sensing in the background are Boccaccio's own feelings after witnessing the plague?
Thomas wrote: "I wonder if an argument could be made that the stories the individuals tell are mirrors of their souls. They are all protected from the plague by the frame of the Decameron, inside which they move from one Edenic paradise to another. But they carry their souls with them. They can escape the world of the plague, but they can't escape the desire and the joy -- or the resentment and despair --that they carry with them inside."Yes. That's a great way of putting it.
Here we have a group of people who have physically fled the dangers of the plague, but they take their life experiences with them wherever they go, and it is these experiences that influence the stories they tell.
Each story is a product of its time. Each story has a unique time stamp, so to speak, of the world in which it was created reflecting the sentiments, culture, and politics of that specific moment in time. This is especially noticeable in stories that are told and retold over the ages, and how their content shifts to accommodate the target audience and the prevailing historical circumstances.
Many of the stories seem to be in rebellion against the sentiment, culture, and morality of their time.
Roger wrote: "Many of the stories seem to be in rebellion against the sentiment, culture, and morality of their time."An example that particularly strikes you as so? (I'm afraid the cynic side of me has too often felt as if "same old, same old," in historic dress, or perhaps the platitudes about "human nature never changing" -- both positions the optimistic side of me rejects....go figure....)
Lily wrote: "Roger wrote: "Many of the stories seem to be in rebellion against the sentiment, culture, and morality of their time."An example that particularly strikes you as so? (I'm afraid the cynic side of..."
All the stories that celebrate sex outside of marriage.
In the Day 6 Conclusion, Dioneo says that as long as their behavior is beyond reproach, they are entitled to discuss any subject they want. Are the stories then simply fantasies, ways to escape the moral boundaries they dare not transgress in real life?
Maybe it's implied that who tell the tale may concur with it? I thought that because of the response of the women to the proposition.
Rafael wrote: "Maybe it's implied that who tell the tale may concur with it? I thought that because of the response of the women to the proposition."I think they do, in a way. But in a controlled way. While the world outside is wracked by plague and chaos, the brigata are protected inside the frame of the Decameron, where everything is orderly and Edenic. At the same time, the storytellers protect themselves by imposing order on the chaos inside them. The stories are a window into their erotic desires and fantasies, but we also see the moral order that they impose on these desires.
In some ways I am finding the introductions and conclusions more interesting in this regard than the stories themselves. The stories are fairly straight forward fabula, but the members of the brigata are more mysterious.
Thomas wrote: "Rafael wrote: "Maybe it's implied that who tell the tale may concur with it? I thought that because of the response of the women to the proposition."I think they do, in a way. But in a controlled way..."
I like Rafael's question -- and Thomas' response. I rock back and forth between whether "making a point" or "provoking".
Thomas wrote: "Rafael wrote: "Maybe it's implied that who tell the tale may concur with it? I thought that because of the response of the women to the proposition."I think they do, in a way. But in a controlled..."
I'm finding more interest in the introductions and conclusions or the responses to the stories. Maybe this belongs to the day 6 discussions, but I'm puzzled at the Dioneo reasoning that those who are honest about telling the story are free of blame and is otherwise suspect if they aren't honest about it.
I found this section very intriguing in thinking what would have been the message in it's day and how does it read in the twenty first century.Moving to the idyllic setting of the garden, I am not sure if this is an illustration of how humans are so naturally happy in nature, which is then reflected in the stories that critique organised religion and the failures of marriage and celebrate liberated lust. Or if the structured description of the garden is a contrast to the licentious stories that get told within it.
In a current reading, the characters use of tricks, lies, and disguises to get sexual satisfaction from others is obviously counter to the importance of consent. In its day would the continual reference to female pleasure and judgement of husbands who fail as lovers be quite revolutionary? Or does it tie in with the notion that females were believed to be more primitive creatures driven by desires they can't control in contrast to the rational male?
My own personal thoughts while reading were that the framing device of the plague give these stories a sense of Freud's Eros and Thanatos drives. After seeing so much death, the characters are drawn to the fantasy of pure sexual freedom that they can experience through the telling and listening of these stories.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Mimesis: The Representation of Reality in Western Literature (other topics)The Pilgrim's Progress (other topics)
We Begin at the End (other topics)
Why Didn't They Leave? (other topics)
Janson's History of Art: The Western Tradition (other topics)
More...
The stories of Day 2 spoke of people who suffered misfortunes but somehow got lucky and ended up on top. The theme of Day 3 is about people who rely on their resourcefulness to acquire something or recover something they have lost. Are the stories of Day 3 a comment on or a response to the stories of Day 2? Are stories that involve human agency somehow better or more complete than stories that rely purely on the vicissitudes of fate?
How are you finding the characterizations in these stories? Are characters like Masetto or Tebaldo or Giletta full-blooded, three dimensional characters, or fabulistic caricatures? And are we learning anything about the story tellers from the stories they tell?
Dioneo's story is scandalous, as usual. Is it an anything other than a dirty joke?