What are we reading? 3rd August 2021

[CCCubbon]

Mach wrote Moreover, the number of paintings of women reading as opposed to other activities is also generally held to be pretty weirdly (i.e. significantly) high: there are just a lot of pictures of women reading, period.

I like your argument but surely there are far more paintings of women than men generally, mostly they have lost their clothes.

It’s the old tale of more male artists, poets, writers, not seen as suitable occupation for females in the past, not their place. I almost added politicians……but the list would be endless.
And men like to paint women, would there be more depiction of the male form if there had been more women painters? ‘Spec so

[MK]

CCCubbon wrote: "Some may be interested to spend a few minutes over on A place for a Poem reading Robert Frost’s monologue poem called A servant to Servants.
It is fairly long , a woman talking about her life, hous..."

I can easily go off on a tangent. This time from servant to slave.

My current 'if I have a doctor's appointment or have to take the bus for some reason' book is Jesse James: Last Rebel of the Civil War which, while a biography, is a book of Jesse James's times when slavery was part of some lives in Missouri. Can you imagine what good a two-year-old could provide for a household? The James family also had children slaves aged 9, 8, and 6 in 1850.

This chapter has been difficult to read.

[AB76]

Sandya wrote: "SydneyH wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I wish i could embrace modern fiction"

With older texts, quite a bit of the hard work has been done to sort the special ones from the not-so special. In theory, standa..."

Ireland does have a strong place in the heart of many Americans(especially of Irish descent) and they can tend towards a mythic view of a strong, vibrant land which never existed. I think all countries that were colonised are similar , the descendents visualise a heroic and cliche-d representation of nation that never existed

[AB76]

The Ship by Jabra Ibrahim Jabra(1970) has unfolded just as i hoped it would, into a multi character perspective on exile and the Palestinian situation. I'm 1/3rd of the way in..

Jabra was an Oxford educated exile from a Christian background, who lived most of his life in Baghdad. He weaves into his characters the world of 1930s Jerusalem and then the subsequent lives of the multiple narrators as they fled to the Gulf, Iraq and the West.

The cruise ship that the story unfolds on is an interesting device, as passengers mix and discuss their lives. French and Italian women returning west from Beirut and then the Palestinians travelling on business or just travelling to get away from their lives as constantly stateless young men or women.

I first discovered Jabra by accident, about 8 years ago and read his superb Baghdad set novel "Hunters on a lonely street".I heartily recommend him to the Ersatz TLS.

[MK]

A huge 'thank you' to whomever recommended The Grand Sophy. She accompanied me to my work in the yard yesterday. Lovely listen, but then I have done my share of conniving, so Sophy was right up my street.

I find now that Trump has mostly been silenced (HOORAY!), I have lost all interest in the 'news' and am listening to more downloads from the library. Next up is The Big Burn: Teddy Roosevelt and the Fire that Saved America. To think we used to call this time summer and now we also talk instead about fire season.

[Georg]

Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

Hmmm...

Edna O'Brien. Who dared to write about how women were treated in a fundamentally misogynistic society, ruled by the Catholic church. Whose books were burned for that offense, iirc.

Well, if you cannot relate to that you just can't.

I was lucky enough to grow up in a place where religion had lost its power to cower women for some decades. Where misogyny was "only" secular.

If I changed some words in your statement I could say:

As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Thrity Umrigar for example. I am not Indian and I don't care.

Only I am. Interested, that is. Why shouldn't I? How couldn't I?

[MK]

Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

Hmmm...

Edna O'Brien. Who dared to write about how women ..."

Georg - For me - it has nothing to do with relating. I just don't care to read books where women are - at best - marginalized. I have had that happen to me too often, I don't want or need to be reminded.

[AB76]

MK wrote: "Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

Hmmm...

Edna O'Brien. Who dared to write ab..."

I can see what you mean MK, as a white middle class man, i know nothing of being marginalised but if it was happening to me in my own life it would be hard to read about so often. (The only situation i can equate with me personally would be reading a memoir about loss as a family member was fading away or had died. I wouldnt choose to do that)

I also agree with Georg and the idea of relating to a situation and an author who faced censorship and adversity.

[Georg]

Bill wrote:The position of the young woman at the end of Part One did not seem to me such that any Englishman would make his fortune or even much improve his economic or social status by marrying her, thus the lack of justification for the marriage

But Rochester, as the second son, would not have inherited a farthing from his father.
And Antoinette's inheritance, that was made over to him with the marriage, was 30,000 pounds. That must have been a sizeable, even large, fortune in those days.

Agree with you on Jake. The "Alice in Wonderland" comments, then the "Ulysses" comment (Frank McCourt, FFS). Have to think about the Austen/Bronte one....

[Georg]

Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Re "tandem books": Jane Eyre and WSS would seem to make the most natural tandem. Having read Jane Eyre many years ago I am not sure at all whether that tandem would be good or should ..."

Just read your review (after posting). Will have to think about the last 2 paragraphs.

[Georg]

MK wrote: "Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

Hmmm...

Edna O'Brien. Who dared to write ab..."

Point taken.

[Bill]

Georg wrote: "Antoinette's inheritance, that was made over to him with the marriage, was 30,000 pounds."

I don't recall the figure, which I assume must be mentioned somewhere in Part Two. Where do you understand that this inheritance came from? Antoinette's step-father Mason? If so, why would it not have gone to his biological son Richard?

[Sandya]

MK wrote: "A huge 'thank you' to whomever recommended The Grand Sophy. She accompanied me to my work in the yard yesterday. Lovely listen, but then I have done my share of conniving, so Sophy wa..."

I did!

[Sandya]

Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

Hmmm...

Edna O'Brien. Who dared to write about how women ..."


Her books had no relevance to my life. I tried one and I found it boring. I am not a Catholic. Why are white authors always stuffed down our throats as having global relevance when the majority of the earth's population isn't even white?

[Tam]

Georg wrote: "Bill wrote:The position of the young woman at the end of Part One did not seem to me such that any Englishman would make his fortune or even much improve his economic or social status by marrying h..."

I have a friend who had an English ancestor who married a 'plantation' heiress. I do not know about this from her however, as none of the family ever mention it. I read about it on-line... ! Another, or maybe the same one, 'lost' ownership of 2/3rds of the small village that they lived beside, to gambling debts, I believe, so I could see how there were many impoverished minor aristocrats who would have a 'plantation' heiress lined up to repeal their fortunes, if they were available...

I too like the Wide Sargasso Sea. Jean Rhys has an interesting history herself, in her own life and background. I think she could quite confidently be described as a member of the 'awkward squad' herself... though

[Sandya]

Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Re "tandem books": Jane Eyre and WSS would seem to make the most natural tandem. Having read Jane Eyre many years ago I am not sure at all whether that tandem would be good or should ..."

I am a great fan of Jane Eyre, which quite literally saved my sanity in grammar school, and has given me much since then. I read Wide Sargasso Sea as a postdoc in Strasbourg, 1980-81. I hated it. It didn't help that I read it at a time of great personal hardship but it put me off Jean Rhys for life and I have never desired to reread it. I did not find its evocation of the madwoman's life either interesting or compelling-she was a weak person incapable to standing up for herself-a total loser in fact. Having actually had to spend several years focused on avoiding an arranged marriage, I didn't think it was dealt with convincingly. What on earth could Jean Rhys possibly know about it? She was very little better than a courtesan.

I love the Gothic atmosphere of JE, which is the novel that has everything-it is also a detective story "avant la lettre". I much prefer the Brontes to Jane Austen because of the arranged marriage issue. CB's heroines have their own money, however little it might be, and do not have to marry for a living. Further, CB very cleverly turns the consequences of the Law of Entail around. While Austen focuses on its effects on women's lives, in JE it is Rochester, a younger son, whose life is ruined by it. I am not aware of any other contemporary author who did this. JE is innovative in so many ways it would be ruined if Jane Austen had written it.

I thought 100 Years of Solitude, stuffed down my throat by a friend-was garbage. This crap got a Nobel Prize?

[AB76]

Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

Hmmm...

Edna O'Brien. Who dared to write ab..."

But race vs shared human experience would suggest to me that the latter unites, the former divides. So i would say read O'Brien as an example of common human experiences being expressed and ignore the race of the writer, however there should be no place for race still being regarded as based on superiority as opposed to it all being more a case of biological adaption to the environment over thousands of years

[AB76]

Sandya wrote: "Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Re "tandem books": Jane Eyre and WSS would seem to make the most natural tandem. Having read Jane Eyre many years ago I am not sure at all whether that tandem would be go..."

i loathe Marquez and every book he wrote, hopelessly overrated, the level of dissapointment when i first read him was huge, i was like, this is supposed to be good? Horrible magic realist mush which i found almost like wading through treacle......as a big fan of latin american fiction, he finishes last in every category for me....

[Georg]

Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Antoinette's inheritance, that was made over to him with the marriage, was 30,000 pounds."

I don't recall the figure, which I assume must be mentioned somewhere in Part Two. Where do..."

And the woman is a stranger. Her pleading expression annoys me. I have not bought her, she has bought me, or so she thinks.
...Dear Father. The thirty thousand pounds have been paid to me without question or condition...I have a modest competence now. I will never be a disgrace to you or to my dear brother the son you love. No begging letters, no mean requests. None of the furtive shabby manoeuvres of a younger son. I have sold my soul or you have sold it, and after all is it such a bad bargain? (page 49/151 in my edition)

Ah, well, it was. But only for Antoinette. His "soul" wasn't worth three pennies.

[Sandya]

AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Re "tandem books": Jane Eyre and WSS would seem to make the most natural tandem. Having read Jane Eyre many years ago I am not sure at all whether that tan..."

Lol. I had the same reaction. Isn't 100 Years the one with the ridiculous family tree of 500 people with the same name? I can't stand magical realism anyway and this put me off finally and forever.

[Sandya]

AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

Hmmm...

Edna O'Brien. Who da..."

What shared human experiences? I shared nothing with Edna O'Brien's "Girls".

[Georg]

Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Antoinette's inheritance, that was made over to him with the marriage, was 30,000 pounds."

I don't recall the figure, which I assume must be mentioned somewhere in Part Two. Where do..."

Sorry, forgot: it did come from her stepfather Mason. he split his inheritance 50:50 between her and his son Richard. Who then procured (Rochester) as a groom for his stepsister.

[Tam]

Sandya wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

Hmmm...

Edna O'..."

I think perhaps it is the scale of perception from which you are looking at a particular plot. O'Brians 'girls' were setting off into a new adult life, trying to be free of the parental expectations that had been assumed of them, but also the expectations of an overarching, and dominating, religious social context, within which their own culture, was set.

I can see some similarities at least, from what you have said about yourself, about your own struggles to determine your own freedom to become what you wanted to be, and being free of those oppressive assumptions.

It doesn't mean you have to like the books though!...

[Greenfairy]

Russell wrote: "“Possession”– A.S. Byatt (1990)

Capacious, intricate and inventive, a portrait of two Victorian poets immersed in the high culture of their age, the woman reclusive but with a soul that is harsh a..."

It is on my shelves among the classics, I am certain that it wil stand the test of time

[Greenfairy]

CCCubbon wrote: "Some may be interested to spend a few minutes over on A place for a Poem reading Robert Frost’s monologue poem called A servant to Servants.
It is fairly long , a woman talking about her life, hous..."

I liked this CC, The part about the Men discussing Very Important things while completely ignoring her as though she was a part of the furniture as she fetched and carried ...

[Bill]

Georg wrote: "Dear Father. The thirty thousand pounds have been paid to me without question or condition...I have a modest competence now."

Thanks. Page 41 in the Norton Critical Edition. Glancing through this section, it seems like the arrangement was made through Richard Mason, Antoinette's step-brother, after his father's death.

Perhaps my objections to Part 2, in fact, somewhat cancel each other out in the plotting of the story. I can’t quite see why Mason should settle part of his own inheritance on Antoinette, and perhaps (Rochester) has the same uncertainty; this uncertainty, in turn, fuels his own tendency to be suspicious of Antoinette’s background (Why was her step-brother so eager to get her off his hands as to pay a substantial sum?), suspicions I found poorly motivated on my first reading.

[AB76]

Sandya wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

Hmmm...

Edna O'..."

am yet to read "Girls" but as a fan of O'Brien, i think women can always find a lot of shared experiences reading her novels

[Fuzzywuzz]

MK wrote: "Fuzzywuzz wrote: "Billy Summers by Stephen King is out now. I'm very tempted. I've got 4 days off work and a bit of time on my hands. The lure of the bookshop is very hard to ignore.

I'm also goi..."

I've not read the book, but the film in on my watchlist. I'd love to hear what you make of the book.

[Bill]

Georg wrote: "Sorry, forgot: it did come from her stepfather Mason. he split his inheritance 50:50 between her and his son Richard. Who then procured (Rochester) as a groom for his stepsister."

Ah, our posts crossed each other. So the money didn't come out of Richard's pocket, which nullifies the thrust of my comments.

Do you know where the 50:50 split is mentioned in the text? I don’t recall it and it seems unusual in the context, where a younger son gets nothing but a younger step-daughter inherits an equal share. But, as Bumble observed, “The law is a ass.”

[Fuzzywuzz]

giveusaclue wrote: "Fuzzywuzz wrote: "Billy Summers by Stephen King is out now. I'm very tempted. I've got 4 days off work and a bit of time on my hands. The lure of the bookshop is very hard to ignore.

I'm also goi..."

Thanks giveusaclue. Everything is crossed :)

[Georg]

Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Dear Father. The thirty thousand pounds have been paid to me without question or condition...I have a modest competence now."

Thanks. Page 41 in the Norton Critical Edition. Glancing..."

" I can’t quite see why Mason should settle part of his own inheritance on Antoinette"

Nor can I.

"Why was her step-brother so eager to get her off his hands as to pay a substantial sum?"

But he didn't pay anything at all! It was her inheritance, nothing to do with him.

And thats where it gets interesting:
Did he want to do an old friend a favour? Did he think a woman should not be in charge of such a large sum of money? Or did he want to take revenge for having lost such a substantial sum? If he did: did he deliberately choose (Rochester) as his instrument, because he knew him well?

[[deleted user]]

Picking up on the comments about my reading of The Secret Place.

The book group is organised by my local library and we (the group) don't choose the books. Some institution or national part of the library service provides my town's library service with random book group stock, and we work our way through the stock. That's why we've got the fifth book in the series. Declaring a book unreadable and not reading it is, I think, as per CCC's suggestion, a perfectly valid decision. However, I'm quite sniffy about some of the books we have to read so I'm reluctant to do anything which makes me look even sniffier. I consider it a point of honour to finish the damn things. I do allow myself to skim, though, when all I'm feeling is a silent shriek of agony. I have indeed been skimming since page 50, but have only arrived at p 138 thus far. I cannot believe the writer thinks she's going to get another 385 pages out of this hogwash, but the evidence is here in my hand and so another 385 pages to go.

[[deleted user]]

MK wrote: "A huge 'thank you' to whomever recommended The Grand Sophy. She accompanied me to my work in the yard yesterday. Lovely listen, but then I have done my share of conniving, so Sophy wa..."

I'm always happy to hear the love for The Grand Sophy.

[Slawkenbergius]

AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.

H..."

Oh man, the last time I saw someone praise Aunt Edna's prose it generated a sharp-tongued debate back on TLS. I remember a particular passage someone quoted from her first novel that was dripping with Irish clichés: multiple references to bogs and something about the wind on the moors sounding like uillean pipes...

Nothing sounds like uillean pipes, and surely not wind, in Ireland or anywhere else.

[Tam]

Anne wrote: "Picking up on the comments about my reading of The Secret Place.

The book group is organised by my local library and we (the group) don't choose the books. Some institution or nati..."

I think Anne that this shows your inherent truthfulness... which is a good thing on the whole, but can give one a harder life in the long run. I think I, personally, if I was in your position would read a few reviews of the book, and make comments from the reviews. Odds on no one will notice you haven't read the whole book, but if I was challenged about it I would just say no I can't stand the book, I read some of it, but it was just too awful to continue, but I wanted to still be part of a the book club, so I have read the reviews instead...

That way you still demonstrate your interest in the group, which is all that is required really. Its also part of the reason I have never been in a book group though. A way forward might be to have more control over the books you read, as a group?... perhaps...

[[deleted user]]

MK wrote: "Who will be upset if another group member trashes the book? And will it matter to the group?..."

Ah, I missed this question. No-one is upset if the book is trashed by one member and loved by another. We've been together for years and there's real respect and trust between us in the group.

[Sandya]

Georg wrote: "Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Dear Father. The thirty thousand pounds have been paid to me without question or condition...I have a modest competence now."

Thanks. Page 41 in the Norton Critical Edit..."

More reasons I hated this book-the confused approach to inheritance and a law that had been on the books in England since the medieval period, and which wasn't removed until 1925. Rhys was not strong on research and that gave the book its weak foundation.

[[deleted user]]

Hushpuppy wrote: "And if that was not bad enough, it apparently takes a nosedive halfway through with some ill choice from the writer.

I am not encouraging you much, am I?."

It's a book that should be rewritten by Barbara Vine.

[AB76]

Slawkenbergius wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I d..."

hahahahaha

[Slawkenbergius]

Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Dear Father. The thirty thousand pounds have been paid to me without question or condition...I have a modest competence now."

Thanks. Page 41 in the Norton..."

There must have been more to that law than meets the eye; after all, Lady Catherine de Bourgh in Pride and Prejudice was an immensely rich widow and her nephew Darcy was meant to wait for her to be dead before getting his hands on the inheritance. Or perhaps that sort of thing was reserved to aristocratic women only.

[giveusaclue]

AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Re "tandem books": Jane Eyre and WSS would seem to make the most natural tandem. Having read Jane Eyre many years ago I am not sure at all whether that tan..."

Well that is something we can agree on. I started reading Love in the Time of Cholera .I thought it was going to be ok to start with then gave up in great disappointment.

[giveusaclue]

Slawkenbergius wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Dear Father. The thirty thousand pounds have been paid to me without question or condition...I have a modest competence now."

Thanks. Page 4..."

A little off topicish, but if I remember rightly (I wasn't there!) one of the clauses in the Magna Carta was that widows should not be forced to marry again against their will. I believe in France in the Middle Ages it was not entirely unknown for a rich heiress to be kidnapped and raped then forced to marry her attacker to "avoid the shame!" It is possible that Eleanor of Aquitaine narrowly escaped this fate.

[AB76]

giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Re "tandem books": Jane Eyre and WSS would seem to make the most natural tandem. Having read Jane Eyre many years ago I am not sure at all whe..."

he is easily the most overrated author i have come accross, painful to read...

[giveusaclue]

I am currently read Mystery at the Old Mill by Clare Chase. It is really silly but I just fancied something very light and nontaxing. Must get back to some proper history next!

[Miri]

I agree that a lot of Americans have a misty-eyed view of Ireland (and love to call themselves "Irish" which I imagine annoys some Irish Irish people), but I'm not sure they or anyone else is claiming Ireland is "more important" than other countries. It's an interesting country with an interesting history and a strong tradition of producing very talented poets/authors/playwrights. I say this as someone who is also very interested in and enjoys reading Indian/Chinese/African literature, is not Irish, is not Irish-American, and is not descended from anyone from Ireland in any way.

Is Edna O'Brien really stuffed down everyone's throats as having global relevance?

I agree that there is a problem that white authors often get more exposure or respect compared to writers who are not white. But I think it also depends on the country. I specialised in modern Japanese literature as part of my Japanese degree, and loved to read novels when I was working there. In Japan, the "canon" is very Japanese, abd while (surprise, surprise) male writers often get more exposure than female ones, of the three authors that I know to have been on Japanese money, two were women!

Maybe that's a bad example, and I'm probably misinterpreting your point. Ultimately I agree that I want more diversity in the writing that is pushed. But... I do identify with characters in and love books from countries I have no particular connection with. Ireland, Nigeria, Italy, South Korea, Russia... I remember crying reading about Colm Toibin's Eilis Lacey because I identified with her dilemma in that novel so much. I'm not Irish, I'm not being wooed by a handsome Italian and a handsome Irishman, I've never been to Brooklyn, I'm not Catholic etc etc etc ...sorry I don't know where I'm going this and this is becoming increasingly twee so I'll stop. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me personally even if I don't superficially identify with a character (nationality, age, gender, whatever), I can still identify with aspects of their emotional lives.

[SydneyH]

Slawkenbergius wrote: "the last time I saw someone praise Aunt Edna's prose it generated a sharp-tongued debate back on TLS."

Yes, I remember a few of those, though her politics I think are the bigger source of conflict.

[SydneyH]

AB76 wrote: "Horrible magic realist mush."

I think that most of Gabo's work can't really be described as Magic Realism. Certainly One Hundred Years of Solitude.

[SydneyH]

Russell wrote: "a good option for scenes of opulence is one of the earlier novels in the sequence, “La Curée” (The Kill)."

Thanks. I have The Masterpiece and The Debacle lined up as my next two, but I may read further.

[Sandya]

Slawkenbergius wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Dear Father. The thirty thousand pounds have been paid to me without question or condition...I have a modest competence now."

Thanks. Page 4..."

Lady Catherine de Bourgh would undoubtedly have had a rich jointure in proportion to any dowry she brought into her marriage, and may well have been an heiress, in which case her marriage settlement would have stipulated funds be reserved for her. As a widow she was a "feme sole" and could hold funds in her own right. Sarah, Duchess of Marlborough, probably the richest widow in Europe at that time, refused to marry again after the Duke's death for the reason that as a widow she retained control over her own money. She was pursued by "The Proud Duke" of Somerset but turned him down. He was in any case a bag of hot air.

[SydneyH]

Sandya wrote: "Interesting. I don't read much modern fiction other than thrillers and SciFi."

I also value escapism highly, and I think it is probably hard to get that experience from some contemporary fiction.