The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion
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Dawn
Group Reads 2021
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Aug 2021 Group Read - "Dawn" by Octavia E. Butler
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I finished this one and enjoyed it. It should make for a good discussion.
I read this one recently, I came away thinking that it was a well-written book about things I didn't enjoy reading about.I've read four Butler novels- two I loved and two that I wish I hadn't read.
Mod
(I've also read the stand-alone "Kindred". All the books I've read from her have been good.)
I really liked Mind of My Mind, Clay's Ark, & Patternmaster, but never could get into any of her other books. I think I've tried this one a couple of times in print. I'd try it as an audiobook, but none of my libraries have it.
Started it today. So far quite interesting
I thought the set-up was interesting - the human race is destroying itself (a common Cold-War set-up, of course) and an alien race harvests some survivors to save the human race and allow them to re-populate the Earth. The aliens are well-thought out - some of the best and most-alien aliens I've read since some of Niven's Known Space books.
Available on Kindle free with Prime this month!
Mod
Those are books 2, 3 and 4 of a series. You skipped #1?
I have only read #4, so I skipped 1, 2 and 3. But I like it a lot so I want to read them someday.
They are very separate stories, though there is a connecting thread.
Ed wrote: "Those are books 2, 3 and 4 o..."IIRC, I actually read them in published order when they first came out when I was in the Army & I found the first two at the PX. I was out of the Army & married a while before "Clay's Ark" bridged the gap. I think I got it about the time my youngest boy was born. I was hitting the library a lot then since my wife was busy with the monsters. I found the first couple of Eddings' Belgariad about then, too.
I was surprised by how resistant to genetic manipulation the humans were. Despite all the wonderful enhancements that could be provided, such as increased strength and healing, everyone seemed to resist because they were afraid of no longer being "human." That is so opposite from most SF novels, especially in the cyberpunk genre where everyone is rushing to modify themselves in some fashion or another.
Mod
Well, the Oankali do not only give Lilith "superpowers", they also mess with her fertility and her sexual desires while holding her captive. I find it very comprehensible that she is horrified by the thought of having half-Oankali children and also possibly not having a choice in this.
The reaction to the Oankali by a majority of the awakened humans is strange. The world experienced "humanicide" and the Oankali are the ones who managed to keep humans alive, yet everyone wants to rebel and get back to mother earth, though, from the description, it may be barely habitable. Is that the true condition of Earth? Are the Oankali our only source of information about what has happened on the planet's surface? Been a year since I read this and I can't remember.
Ed wrote: "Surely nobody would resist having 5G network chips injected into them!"See? That's what I'm talking about! At least, until 6G comes out...
Rouven wrote: "Well, the Oankali do not only give Lilith "superpowers", they also mess with her fertility and her sexual desires while holding her captive. I find it very comprehensible that she is horrified by the thought of having half-Oankali children and also possibly not having a choice in this."
I agree with you, but strangely the humans seem to be kind of passive about the sexual experiences. Resistant to the idea of half-human children, yes, but still willing to have sexual experiences with the Oankali to the point of no longer wanting to touch their own human partners. Butler seems to be saying that ideas scare people more than experiences.
Dan wrote: "The reaction to the Oankali by a majority of the awakened humans is strange. ."I agree. Maybe it is the overly emotional writing style - like the first time the protagonist meets Oankali she fears them enough to cower in a corner, first time meeting a human she fears rape (reasonably it appears) - and others act highly emotionally, not rationally too
I haven't read beyond this first book. I wonder if, as Oleksandr describes them, these "overly emotional" reactions are, in fact, the result of genetic manipulation and not, as it appears, poor writing on the part of the author.
Mod
Ed wrote: "Maybe Butler was already trying out a version of that idea."There is a similar tout emotions in Kindred, so while I agree it is more 'plot based' in Parables, it is present in all her books I've read.
A side note, she uses 'it' for the third gender, while today most writers shifted to 'they'
I read the 3 books in a row recently but since I'm not sure what was mentioned in which book I won't bring on new items here :-).I was impressed with the writing of Octavia Butler and thought it was a very original series of books. What surprised me was that where I saw the aliens using earth and the people left on it only for their own goals, many readers also considered them as saviours of the human race, after humanity messed up.
As for the emotional writing style, I don't remember that specificly, but maybe conditions for the surviving people where that far from normal that emotional responses are all they can produce. I don't think I would act very rationally meeting an Oankali.
Dan wrote: "I wonder if, as Oleksandr describes them, these "overly emotional" reactions are, in fact, the result of genetic manipulation and not, as it appears, poor writing on the part of the author."I wouldn't call it "poor writing" exactly. But I was struck by how much Butler focused on the emotions of her characters. Most male-authored SF books (especially 34 years ago when this was published) tend to limit their characters' emotions to anger and joy whereas in this book Butler tried to show a much broader scope of emotions.
Is this focus on emotions a female characteristic? Maybe, maybe not. But it does remind me of a funny story from work. I was riding down the elevator with a friend to go to lunch. The doors opened and a female attorney got on as my friend said to me: "I don't think the Angels are going to make the playoffs this year." The attorney turned to us, exasperated, and said "why do men always talk about sports? Is it so you don't have to talk about your feelings?" There was an uncomfortable pause, then my friend turned to me again and said, "I FEEL like the Angels aren't going to make the playoffs this year."
RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Dan wrote: "I wouldn't call it "poor writing" exactly. ."Yes, I agree, it is not poor. On the contrary I think it is quite strong and I actually liked her style, here and elsewhere. It is just different from most SFF from 30 years ago, but it is good in its uniqueness
I'm not sure--I just don't see Butler's prose as exceptional in this particular work. And I admit "poor writing" for Butler is a standard many would hope to reach in their lifetime.
Mod
BTW does anyone wants to continue with the rest of the trilogy?
I read all 3 and liked it, it is certainly completing the story. But then again I allways do want to finish series.
So Leo: The overall arc of the trilogy makes for one complete story--it's not a case of two sequels riffing on the first. In other words, there's new territory and elements Butler reveals?
Yes Dan, it makes a complete story, book 2 and 3 shifting forward in time.
Chad wrote: "Sure."I may start somewhere in mid-September, after I finish all monthly reads in my groups
Mod
Well, it is a 3rd gender of an alien species, covered in tentacles. We often use 'it' to refer to some, but not all, non-humans. Some languages don't have a word for 'it', so I wonder how it is translated.
I found Lillith's emotional reaction to first seeing the alien to be rather extreme. If an alien simply appeared on earth, it would be understandable. But she'd been kept captive for a long time already. I'd think she might be numb to such surprises. Maybe not, though. Maybe she was afraid it would eat her, or something.
The in-fighting between people in part 3 feels, sadly, believable. I would think people would quickly believe her when she says they're captured by aliens. All the technology was so very alien, especially the plant pods that they all saw and touched. But I've been surprised by the way people are acting in the real world to the concept that an invisible virus might be worth avoiding.
I may continue the other books, but I have quite a few things planned for my next readings.
Mod
And why did they forbid Lilith to have pen and paper for a long time, and then later decide she could have them?
Ed wrote: "And why did they forbid Lilith to have pen and paper for a long time, and then later decide she could have them?"As I understood it they assumed that writing was a part of civilization path that led to the final demise of humanity, but later decided it isn't that important
Mod
From the beginning, I thought the use of the name Lilith was clever. In case you don't know, in some Jewish and other stories, Lilith was the first woman created, but she didn't give birth to humans. She would not submit to Adam. (There are other versions where she variously did birth humans and/or demons.) This kind-of mirrors the fact that the main character here (view spoiler).
Her last name, Iyapo, is also interesting. In Yoruba it means something like "many trials; many impediments".
Sometimes names with symbolic meaning annoy me, but it felt right in this story.
Ed wrote: "After part 3, I took a break. I recently read part 4 and may now continue to the next novel. Overall, it was very good, and unusual.From the beginning, I thought the use of the name Lilith was cl..."
That's interessting. I didn't know what Iyapo mean. Thanks for sharing!
Mod
Yeah, she didn't have much choice. There is a lot of stuff in the book where the aliens don't care much about the consent of the humans they are "trading" with.
I can't remember whether it is stated in this book, or only in the next one, but they impregnated her without asking or even telling her.
Also, thank you for being one of the 2 (out of 18) people who voted for the book and actually participated in the conversation!
Mod
One thing the humans don't seem to have is religion. That's odd. Surely some of them would keep that.
I'm glad I read book 2 without waiting long. The number of characters, and even types of characters, continues to be large. I find it easy to forget what some of the different types of aliens are.
I'm moving on to book 3, which is much shorter than 1 or 2.
For those who want to continue reading, should we start a separate thread?
Mod
I suppose Butler has been reading this thread because she does bring in some religion in the final section of part 3. Some of the humans think of the aliens as "devils", and one of the Spanish-speaking characters is named Jesusa.
Briefly, book 2 is the story of Lilith's first male son. Book 3 is the story of her first ooloi child. It deals with what it is like to go through alien-style puberty when you are ooloi.
When speaking of it in Spanish, the characters us the English word "it" since there is no gender-neutral Spanish pronoun.
I rated every book as a 4. Grand ideas, but I get tired with the large number of characters, and book 3 seems to run out a steam a bit. The main character faces a crisis, but the solution just falls into his lap too easily.
Overall, she's a great author.
Mod
That is only one of many Butler adaptations in the works.
The Evolution of Science Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
Kindred (other topics)Mind of My Mind (other topics)
Clay's Ark (other topics)
Patternmaster (other topics)
Mind of My Mind (other topics)
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The book blurb:
Lilith Iyapo has just lost her husband and son when atomic fire consumes Earth—the last stage of the planet’s final war. Hundreds of years later Lilith awakes, deep in the hold of a massive alien spacecraft piloted by the Oankali—who arrived just in time to save humanity from extinction. They have kept Lilith and other survivors asleep for centuries, as they learned whatever they could about Earth. Now it is time for Lilith to lead them back to her home world, but life among the Oankali on the newly resettled planet will be nothing like it was before.
The Oankali survive by genetically merging with primitive civilizations—whether their new hosts like it or not. For the first time since the nuclear holocaust, Earth will be inhabited. Grass will grow, animals will run, and people will learn to survive the planet’s untamed wilderness. But their children will not be human. Not exactly.