July 2021 - Robot Series #3: The Robots of Dawn

[Ryan]

Discussion topic for the book, as I don't think anyone has added it yet.

[Ryan]

I'm just starting the book.

A quick question:

Demachek says to Baley, near the beginning of the book - "On the occasion when you solved a problem concerning two mathematicians on board a Spacer ship?"

What is this referring to? I have read the first two books in the series, but I don't recall such an event.

[Brandon]

He appeared in a short story published between The Naked Sun and The Robots of Dawn called "Mirror Image":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_...

[Mickey]

Brandon wrote: "He appeared in a short story published between The Naked Sun and The Robots of Dawn called "Mirror Image":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_..."

Good catch, I sure missed that one.

I falsely assumed it was about the Spacers from Caves of Steel. I was thinking of “Dr. Sarton a Sociologist” and “Dr. Dr. Fastolfe a Robot specialist”. In which they all came to Earth on the same ship with the R. Daneel Olivaw. I thought it was a short way and the author called them both Mathematicians. How my sad mind works in my old and decrepit ways.

“Mirror Image” is not in the iRobot novel which is Book one of the robot stories. Caves of Steel is Book 3 of the robot series. However, Caves of Steel is the first robot novel. I Do not have the “The Rest of the Robots” book two of the robot stories. Unknown if the short story “Mirror Image” is in that book.

However, I do own Isaac Asimov’s “The Complete Robot” and read it many years ago as my memory fades. “Mirror Image” is in that book with two other humanoid robot stories. Which I failed to remember. I mostly remember the Susan Calvin stories as well as Powell and Donovan stories. It bothers me that their was an Lije Baley story in that book.

I will be rereading those three humanoid short stories shortly.

Thanks to Brandon and to Ryan for bringing this to light.

One more note: Robots of Dawn also references another short story that is in the iRobot book one of the series and in the Complete Robot book ——> “Liar!” About a mind reading robot.

[mark, personal space invader]

Hey thanks Ryan for starting the discussion thread, much appreciated! I hope to start this soon, maybe this weekend.

[Ryan]

Thanks Brandon!

Is it a good idea to read that story before reading this book? Or does it not really matter?

[Brandon]

Ryan,

I don't think it matters. The synopsis is there if you want to read it, but I just understood it as the characters having a life outside of the novels. Everything you need to understand the mystery in The Robots of Dawn is included in the book itself.

[Karin]

I have--I am 56% of the way through it.

I agree that you could read this without having read the first two, but I'd recommend read the synopsis of the first two books to give you a bit of a background.

[Karin]

I'm planning to finish this tonight.

[Mickey]

I am about halfway through the book and regarding the subject matter of this particular book. From my first statements on the topic of robots…

Where is my CHERRY 2000!
and my piña colada.

[Ryan]

I generally liked the book. Though some of the logical leaps by Baley were a little farfetched, it was entertaining throughout. (view spoiler)[I was unsatisfied by the ending, though. Giskard being the mastermind behind the whole thing, with a secret mind-reading/influencing ability? And that he can influence robots and humans both? That was way out of left field. We've not seen evidence before of robots having any kind of individual agency outside of straightforward applications of the three laws, so for Giskard to do so so spectacularly seems like it undermines the world-building. And the explanation given for the mind-reading ability - some unwitting modifications by a roboticist intending no such thing - is also wildly implausible. (hide spoiler)]

[Maggie, space cruisin' for a bruisin']

Mark your spoilers, please, Ryan!

[Mickey]

This was a reread for me here so I was somewhat familiar with the book. I did provide a tiny hint about the short story Liar from Asimov’s iRobot novel.

However, if one is using the Goodreads app, adding the spoiler attributes do not work. One has to use the website to incorporate those spoiler attachments. I suspect most people here are using the app and not the website.

One more book left to go… seems like perfect timing to me.

And…..
I am ready for the September 24 Premiere of the new tv series Foundation by Isaac Asimov.

[Mickey]

Ryan wrote: "I generally liked the book. Though some of the logical leaps by Baley were a little farfetched, it was entertaining throughout. I was unsatisfied by the ending, though. Giskard being the mastermind..."

From the Foundation novels, the other twenty thousand year old Humanoid robot, whom we shall not name, also has similar mind reading mind altering capabilities.

So what character from Isaac Asimov’s novels really created psychohistory ?????

[Ryan]

Yeah, that was another thing I noticed. It was interesting how this novel gave nods to the psychohistory of the Foundation series, putting it as sort of a loose prequel. I've heard that Asimov attempted to unify some of his series (mostly sort of shoehorned in) in later works, but this is the first I've seen of it. It did have that shoehorn-y feel to it.

[Karin]

I had to read Robots and Empire as well, since it is now officially late for my library (but no fines until September, thankfully).

For those who have read the Foundation series, I want to know what other novels R Daneel is in--I know there are more, but lists didn't quite agree.

[Mickey]

Karin wrote: "I had to read Robots and Empire as well, since it is now officially late for my library (but no fines until September, thankfully).

For those who have read the Foundation series, I want to know wh..."

From the seven foundation novels, it would be the last three books.
Foundation and Earth
Prelude to Foundation
Forward the Foundation

However, after reading the later books. The character R. Daneel could play the part of a human and few could tell. If R. Daneel was in the earlier books, he played the part of a human that help guided the foundation unbeknownst to the other characters around him. One will not know until the latter novel’s.

I am not an expert on Isacc Asimov’s works. I believe towards the end of his life he wanted to merge all of his fictional books into one universe. He lived long enough to do just that. In Asimov’s universe, only humans are the only intelligent life form that exists in our galaxy. However through human evolution there are some differences between some humans.

[mark, personal space invader]

Got a late start on this, but finished it today. My favorite so far of the Robot novels, with one more and the story collection to go. This is up there with the last two of the classic Foundation novels. Just excellent, loved the interrogations and the in-depth details of Aurora. All of the banal yet alien details of bathrooms and sex and food were fascinating to me. And Giskard! What a fantastic character. Loved the quiet conversation between Baley & him at the end. An infodump, but also moving because Giskard is so disrespected by Baley throughout the novel (the "boy" moments really grated). Also really loved the storm scene. Unlike Ryan, I wasn't surprised at the revelation, but that's only because I read Prelude to Foundation right before reading this. It probably would have come way out of left-field for me I hadn't read that first. All in all, a rich & rewarding read. Those stupid Aurorans are almost as bad as the Solarians, but at least they like sex.

[Mickey]

mark wrote: "Got a late start on this, but finished it today. My favorite so far of the Robot novels, with one more and the story collection to go. This is up there with the last two of the classic Foundation n..."

I totally agree with everything you said. The last two foundation books are the best ones. I agree with you about the Robot Giskard and the world build of Aurora and their hygienic attitudes.

One other thing of interest is on the crime solutions itself. The plainclothesman Baley in all three robot novels, the actual criminals was never punished for the crimes committed. In Caves of Steel, Baleys boss, no punishment. In the Naked Sun, Gladia got off free from getting rid of her husband. And finally no harm done, machines can’t commit a crime, only as an industrial accident.

Also the ones that wanted to harm Earth, was actually pinned for each crime in the novels. However, it was Baleys main focus for what is best for Earth and who really cares what happens to spacers ( I know I am probably pushing that point too far).

Also WHERE IS MY CHERRY 2000! and my piña colada. After all it is 2021 after all :)
Also where is my flying car.

Robots don’t we really really love them… especially after reading this book :)

[Karin]

Mickey wrote: "Karin wrote: "I had to read Robots and Empire as well, since it is now officially late for my library (but no fines until September, thankfully).

For those who have read the Foundation series, I w..."

Thanks! I think he had a couple of pseudonyms, but these books are probably the only other ones; I am sure I'll like the later Foundation books better than the earlier books as this was also the case with the Robot books.

[Phil]

Mickey wrote: "I am not an expert on Isacc Asimov’s works. I believe towards the end of his life he wanted to merge all of his fictional books into one universe. He lived long enough to do just that. In Asimov’s universe, only humans are the only intelligent life form that exists in our galaxy."

Yeah, in some of the later paperbacks, he talked about it in the introduction and included an internal chronology.

I'm pretty sure there are intelligent non-humans in Foundation's Edge.

[Mickey]

Phil wrote: "I'm pretty sure there are intelligent non-humans in Foundation's Edge."

Are you referring to “Gaia”? (view spoiler)[I believe that world and inhabitants was a genetic engineering creation from that 20,000 year old robot, whom I shall not name. Where all living creatures and humans are embedded with the three laws and all have that mind reading, mind bending attributes just like its creator. That world was a backup in case the “Foundation” turned out to be a failure. (hide spoiler)]

However, in my old decrepit age, my mind is not what it use to be and I am often not sure of my facts. Like from message #4, that still bothers me.

[Phil]

Mickey wrote: "Phil wrote: "I'm pretty sure there are intelligent non-humans in Foundation's Edge."

Are you referring to “Gaia”? [spoilers removed]

However, in my old decrepit age, my mind is not what it use to..."

Oh, yeah, that's right. It seemed like an intelligent non-human race until the last book.

[Maggie, space cruisin' for a bruisin']

this was so enjoyable. I was thrown at first when Baley kept getting baited with fake bathrooms and altered outdoor scenes.....At first I assumed they were clues, lol, but realized that the good doctor wouldnt be able to help himself to 'test' a human brain!