Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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The Prophets
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Discussion: The Prophets
Alisha wrote: "I’m curious , what page is everyone on? I’ve finished the book, but want to be careful about spoilers"90% in, finished James. ebook and audio.
I find James to also be a good archetype to add. He is lower-class and not as respected as he would like to be. He’s white, but lives in quarters similar to the slaves. That seems to make him more hateful towards the slaves (more hateful than Paul is, for example). Because although his skin should afford him privilege and prestige, he’s just as much Paul’s lackey as the slaves are. He’s pathetic. Funnily, I don’t think I dislike him as much as I dislike Timothy, for example. Timothy is really naive and that annoys me. But James doesn’t have his head in the clouds to the same degree; he’s very aware that his skin is the only token he has. He knows he’s not respected or treated much better than slaves.
The description of the rape scene was hard to read, but I loved reading about the effect on James afterwards. Maggie’s strong spiritual presence and her ability to strike such fear in him is another reason why she’s my favorite character.
I’d like to hear thoughts on Adam. I understand he was an important archetype to add, to show the emotional struggle of biracial kids born to white slave masters. I think the central question with him was: do his ties lie more with his father (whom he physically sees so much of himself in) or with those who face the same daily oppression as him (i.e. other slaves)?
An important archetype to add, but I feel I didn’t gain too much from his chapter/story.
Also, I have a question about the last chapter that mentions Kosii. Is that too far ahead for anyone?
Alisha wrote: "I’d like to hear thoughts on Adam. I understand he was an important archetype to add, to show the emotional struggle of biracial kids born to white slave masters. I think the central question wit..."
I feel sorry for Adam, he is between a rock and a hard place. On one hand he is ostracized by most of the slaves, because he has a better position and they just don’t trust him. He looks too much like toubab. On the other hand the whites don’t treat him any better. Ruth despises him, and gives him a hard time. Although Paul is his biological father, he definitely does not treat him, like a son. I think his life, has to be harder than the rest of the slaves. There no one for him to truly bond with.
Alisha wrote: "Also, I have a question about the last chapter that mentions Kosii. Is that too far ahead for anyone?"not I
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Yes, if you could just hold off until the 20th Alisha that would be great.
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ColumbusReads wrote: "Any thoughts on this book cover? I’ll just say this; here’s hoping the paperback will be changed."I see the light bright and damn near white person, on the top, once again.
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“If the south had taught him anything, it taught him how to hide his flaws, flatter his audience, feign deference even when he was clearly superior in every conceivable way, and be quintessential in the art of courtesy. This while holding vile and impure thoughts, while even suppressing the girth of his manhood behind britches that threatened to burst at the seams. A raindrop at the tip of his being that would never reach fertile ground. Yes, he was a gentleman’s gentlemen and they were completely taken with him.”
Alisha wrote: "I find James to also be a good archetype to add. He is lower-class and not as respected as he would like to be. He’s white, but lives in quarters similar to the slaves. That seems to make him more ..."I was saving my notes on James since I thought that section was too far ahead as well as Samuel. So I took precarious notes yesterday. Yet, I agree James knows that he is a lower class white man and feels at times that the slaves has better shacks than his. He is disgusted with his life; he had to feed the slaves on ships and witness their anguish such as vomiting's, feces, etc. He had only to rely on his mother's sister's son, and didn't get the inheritance or promises of Paul in his mind as far as wealth, land or such.
I guess I do not have a strong dislike against Tim. He seems to be the normal white man during this time to act like they are helping slavery but still need the slaves. I have seen this character in slave-like movies in the past. they are either harsh and brutal w/o remorse like James, or the other extreme where they seem naive and helpful like offer to let the slaves read, play w them as kids, then when its their turn, they grow to be as harsh or not sticking to their promises to help or free the slave.
Alisha wrote: "I’d like to hear thoughts on Adam. I understand he was an important archetype to add, to show the emotional struggle of biracial kids born to white slave masters. I think the central question wit..."
What I took is that he feels confused since he can pass for white man except his full lips. He admits he cannot hide or hold them tight since eventually he'll have to speak and gives him away. He would like acceptance of Pa, as he called him, but how. He was still property. I felt he did not really relate to other slaves since he was his coach for master, not working necessarily around them. HIs part was just another reflection. I get it since I am multi-racial (more than one race or ethnic group) and how people have tried to place me, but when it is all said and done, society due to slavery in America, will see you as black. However, when I visited other countries, they saw me as other or of my Spanish decent, or mixed race. Yet I do not really speak Spanish.
BernieMck wrote: "Alisha wrote: "I’d like to hear thoughts on Adam. I understand he was an important archetype to add, to show the emotional struggle of biracial kids born to white slave masters. I think the centr..."
agree.
ColumbusReads wrote: "Any thoughts on this book cover? I’ll just say this; here’s hoping the paperback will be changed."No. Are we all seeing the same one? I have the same for both eBook and audio though?
My concern with this reading, why is it only about 10 or less of us participating? I know there was much more who selected this read. Is it hard to get a copy?
Yes, it’s pretty hard to get a copy all of a sudden. My library just released one & I‘ll read it next.
TIFFANY wrote: "Yes, it’s pretty hard to get a copy all of a sudden. My library just released one & I‘ll read it next."Good to know. I know a colleague had a copy, didn't read it and chosen this read for the month...then time expired from the library copy and now unable to get one. I have only until tomorrow, so trying to finish tonight.
Bernie and Adrienna, I agree with both of you on your thoughts about Adam. I think the life of mixed-race slaves is a whole book on its own. That Adam was mostly confined to one chapter is probably why I felt I didn’t get a lot from his narrative. So much more could’ve been said. Adam seemed to really appreciate and respect S & I’s bond more than the rest, just due to the fact that he was so alone. He was in awe that two people could be so close and didn’t want to upset that in any way. He enjoyed spending time with them, but at the same time didn’t hesitate to leave them alone if they were spending time together.
He reacted to the relationship in the opposite way that his half-brother (Timothy) did; Timothy, who was also in awe of S&I’s bond, but instead of respecting their boundaries, tried to infiltrate it.
ColumbusReads wrote: "Couldn’t recall if this was posted. Apologies if it has…“If the south had taught him anything, it taught him how to hide his flaws, flatter his audience, feign deference even when he was clearly ..."
I love Jones’ writing. A very eloquent way to describe being closeted, and the fragile, feigned masculinity of southern white men.
Adrienna wrote: "My concern with this reading, why is it only about 10 or less of us participating? I know there was much more who selected this read. Is it hard to get a copy?"I still feel as if it has been a great discussion. Thought provoking. Waiting until the 20th to say more as I couldn't stop myself from finishing early.
I also couldnt stop reading. I got the book from my library, and then a third of the way thro, I bought a copy. This is a book that deserves space on my bookshelf.
Alisha wrote: "I’m curious about opinions of Be Auntie? Her take towards sexuality seems, to me, the textbook result of sexual abuse. Wisdom, but also misled ideas.She has insider knowledge of how men cannot un..."
Definitely agree this is a pretty common survival tactic for survivors of sexual abuse. I'm not a doctor, but it does have similarities to Stockholm syndrome, but where the abused survives not only by elevating the abuser but demonizing the abused. I think it's also very human when we are treated low, to find someone "lower on the totem pole" than we are to mistreat, to reclaim some sort of power.
That note also leads me to the character of Ruth, and really, all white women whose husbands owned slaves. Fredrick Douglass said in his narrative that they could be the most ruthless. Perhaps to reclaim their power that has been taken by the men in their lives? Any thoughts on that?
Jedah wrote: "Can we take a moment and bow our heads at how he uses pronouns in I Kings."I've tried to talk about this with friends before, about how the gendering of words is a very Western/European thing, and I was pretty surprised at how offended they were by the concept, like it was blasphemous to consider it strange that certain languages have feminine and masculine articles. For instance, I act, and I prefer to be called an actor rather than an actress, because what does my gender have to do with my profession? Why does a king have to be a man, and a queen a woman? These words should only denote title, not gender. I love that the author reinforces the concept that gender fluidity is our natural state, and that we were basically brainwashed by Western religion to reject this concept.
Anna wrote: "Alisha wrote: "I’m curious about opinions of Be Auntie? Her take towards sexuality seems, to me, the textbook result of sexual abuse. Wisdom, but also misled ideas.She has insider knowledge of ho..."
I initially couldn’t decide how I feel about her. But I know now that Be Auntie (not Beulah) is definitely a traitor. She finds pride in being used for sex (by either white or Black men). I think she’s the female equivalent of Amos.
My ebook loan expired, so I’m going based off memory right now. But I do remember Ruth’s chapter describing her animosity towards male supremacy/patriarchy.
Yet she also didn’t seem to mind playing her role of being “weak”. I remember one part saying that she loved (or didn’t mind) when she felt faint because it reinforced her femininity.
So yeah. I can agree with that idea, that the white mistresses were more ruthless because of their powerlessness. Yet, they never did anything to try and rebel against the stereotypes that they were weak/helpless/etc. I don’t get it.
Anna wrote: "Jedah wrote: "Can we take a moment and bow our heads at how he uses pronouns in I Kings."I've tried to talk about this with friends before, about how the gendering of words is a very Western/Euro..."
I absolutely loved that the author showed us pronouns denoting title and not gender, as you said. It took me a while to grasp the pattern, but I when I did, I was thoroughly pleased.
Alisha wrote: "Anna wrote: "Alisha wrote: "I’m curious about opinions of Be Auntie? Her take towards sexuality seems, to me, the textbook result of sexual abuse. Wisdom, but also misled ideas.She has insider kn..."
Really good points here, and your memory is correct regarding the "Ruth" chapter. It does seem like she harbored a lot of animosity toward men (which seems to be a reoccurring theme throughout the women in the novel), but she absolutely used this weakness to her advantage in ways Maggie or Essie, for instance, would not be able to manipulate. She also used her "weakness" to target Isaiah and Samuel, and she chose to take this avenue of manipulation over another human being to gain a sick sense of power rather than other forms of rebellion, which speaks a lot to her character.
Alisha wrote: "Bernie and Adrienna, I agree with both of you on your thoughts about Adam. I think the life of mixed-race slaves is a whole book on its own. That Adam was mostly confined to one chapter is probably..."Agreed. When I got to Adam's chapter, I felt like I had missed out on something crucial. I wanted to know more about his friendship with Samuel and Isaiah, but I guess I really just wanted to more know about Samuel and Isaiah in general. I really enjoyed the glimpses of themselves when they weren't around each other (for instance, Samuel with Puah and Isaiah with Sarah).
Knowing Adam chilled with them as The Two of Them, which it doesn't seem anyone else did but Maggie, was intriguing, and I wish I could know more. As much as our Other Person may complete us, there are always parts of ourselves we hide from one another. I'm curious what shared parts of them Adam may have found.
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Anna wrote: "Alisha wrote: "Anna wrote: "Alisha wrote: "I’m curious about opinions of Be Auntie? Her take towards sexuality seems, to me, the textbook result of sexual abuse. Wisdom, but also misled ideas.She..."
Despicable. Ruth’s chapter was one of my least favorites. Her background story was the least memorable of all the white characters.
Anna wrote: "Alisha wrote: "Bernie and Adrienna, I agree with both of you on your thoughts about Adam. I think the life of mixed-race slaves is a whole book on its own. That Adam was mostly confined to one chap..."I agree 100%! I loved seeing S & I’s personalities when they weren’t together. Because they balance each other out, I feel like we missed out on seeing who they were without each other.
For example, Samuel was constantly described by others as “angry”. And while his anger did come out sometimes while he was with Isaiah, it was always immediately tapered off, because Isaiah was able to calm him down. So I wanted to see who they were as individuals more.
There’s not much action or interaction in Adam’s chapter. Mostly just a lot of reverie. I’m guessing this was done on purpose to highlight how much of a loner he is. But then he really came to life during the revolt. I’m guessing this was also done on purpose. The moment he shows the most life/action throughout the entire book is also the moment he defends/fights with his Black friends. When he attacks James (?), he finally (publicly) proclaims which side he aligns with (i.e. his Black side).
I can’t recall the chapter name. But the final chapter when Kosii is mentioned, he kills a boy. Again, I’m going off memory and the highlights I made. This is one highlight from that chapter:“Maybe that was the sin his father left out of the story, the part about how, in order to survive the mountain people, they had come down from a mountain of their own, had to wear the remains of some other people’s children around their own necks.”
Was it a white boy, or a mixed boy? And I was the boy described as being sad… as almost asking for death? I couldn’t tell if Kosii was killing the boy out of revenge (i.e. revenge against his captors) or out of pity for the boy.
Any thoughts/clarifications about that whole scene is greatly appreciated.
Kosii .... shot up and roped his chains around the skinless boy’s neck, then snatched his wrists apart. The boy kicked and struggled and thrashed. Kosii didn’t let go. The others began to charge him, but Kosii had already managed to pull himself back, up against the half wall of the deck. He took a deep breath and shouted. “This triumph is for Elewa in the name of King Akusa!” Then he fell backward, over the wall of the ship, the boy in his grasp. With them, the two other people chained to Kosii crashed down into the waves, shocked then comforted by the cold embrace of the water, soothed by the sea-foam and then absorbed. Kosii wouldn’t swim. He held on to the skinless boy until his body was still then he let out his own breath and together they began to sink. Such a shame, but he had to do it. Had to. Pressed into this corner, there was no way he was going to die alone. It had already been determined: they shall die together. For this was glory. Elewa. As they descended, Kosii prayed for forgiveness from the woman and the man who were chained to him. He didn’t ask them if they had wanted to drown but took it upon himself to drag them into the deep. I feel like Kosii pulled a Nino Brown, from New Jack City, or Cleo from Set it Off. When he went down he took that white boy with him for revenge.
Alisha wrote: "Anna wrote: "Alisha wrote: "Anna wrote: "Alisha wrote: "I’m curious about opinions of Be Auntie? Her take towards sexuality seems, to me, the textbook result of sexual abuse. Wisdom, but also misle..."Maybe Ruth's chapter was the least memorable of the whites, but Ruth's story was also interesting. she was raped by her father, which kind of explained her sexual appetite. She attempted to rape Samuel and his reaction, or lack of one, was the cause of a severe punishment. During those times, thats white women did, run the household and cause trouble.
I kept hoping that Puah and Isaiah would meet up and travel onto freedom together.Timothy was disgraced. No eyes, just like the ni**ers in his dream.
I guess Samuel lost it, and instead of getting away, his fury took over and he got caught up in desecrating Timothy's body.
At first I wanted to parallel Kosii and Samuel. They both took lives to seek revenge for the atrocities, that they and their loved ones, suffered through. Then I realized the same could be said for Maggie and Adam.
Now we know, who Samuel's mother is...... MIC DROP !
Thank you for those clarifications, Bernie!I thought Kosii’s murder-suicide scene was really powerful. Really all those chapters storytelling of the pre-slavery African heritage were some of the best chapters of the book.
I completely missed Ruth’s rape! My mouth dropped. Goes to show how un-intrigued I was by that chapter lmao. I’m going to borrow the book again just to re-read that chapter.
I didn’t get a hyper-sexual vibe from her, but I can see that. In addition to what she did to Samuel, I believe she flirted with James? At least that’s what I picked up.
Not gonna lie, I did not enjoy the ending. Like at all. I understand there was always an undertone of magic realism throughout the book… the constant consultation with African ancestors. But the ending overdid it for me. I wasn’t satisfied with how Isaiah found out his name.I also felt there were some loose ends about what happened to Puah and Sarah. I can’t recall Maggie’s final scene too well, but I believe it wrapped up well enough (last I remember she was burning the fields and watching Ruth in the burning house). I enjoyed the final scenes of Essie and Beulah the best.
Essie finally felt free enough to kill her biggest weight, her child of rape. Sad, but poignant that the child had to suffer that way. And Beulah finally wised up about how men (even the ones she raised) will leave her in the dust to save their own butts. She put men on a pedestal throughout the entire book and it bit her in the butt in the end.
Alisha wrote: "Not gonna lie, I did not enjoy the ending. Like at all. I understand there was always an undertone of magic realism throughout the book… the constant consultation with African ancestors. But the en..."I agree with your points about the ending. My dislike of magic realism, is the reason I rated the book 4 stars instead of 5.
Innocent baby Solomon’s death, was sad, but was great story telling. I really liked Puah, so in my head, she made it to freedom. Beulah deserved a bad ending.
Sarah’s end was complete. She attacked a posse she ran across in the woods, with the razor blade she kept in her mouth, as a weapon. She went out knowing, she would be killed. She also knew that she was gonna take at least 2 lives, with her.
Just as she got to a clear spot, there they were, standing in her way: a posse. Some of them ragged and toothless. Some of them tall and thin. All of them lined up like spikes on a pitchfork, waiting to make their jaggedness known. When they approached, she had figured out something that had been like a splinter in her foot: the easy thing to believe was that toubab were monsters, their crimes exceptional. Harder, however, and even more frightening was the truth: there was no such thing as monsters. Every travesty that had ever been committed had been committed by plain people and every person had it in them, that fetching, bejeweled thing just beneath the breast that could be removed at will and smashed over another’s head before it was returned to its beating place. The splinter pushed out, she could walk evenly, though cautiously, whether the ground was level or not.
She smirked at them…….
She balled her right hand into a fist and with her left, she reached into her jaw and pulled her weapon from where it rested against the interior of her cheek. It didn’t matter what fires were started or how much timber had fueled them. Nah. She wasn’t going to be anyone’s sacrifice but her own.
She swayed with the cotton plants in the distance behind her. The wind danced between her legs. She held a fist out in front of her and her other hand pulled back like a viper before the strike, a fang glistening in its mouth. Delighted by the potential shock that would overcome their faces as she took at least two of them down with her into the places her people thrived—hot places, thick with ruin—she braced herself: “Come on with it, then!”
BernieMck wrote: "Just as she got to a clear spot, there they were, standing in her way: a posse. Some of them ragged and toothless. Some of them tall and thin. All of them lined up like spikes on a pitchfork, waiti..."Thank you again for the clarification! So was the “posse” a Native American tribe? Or was it white people?
I initially understood it to be that she was (purposely) entering/seeking Native American tribal territory. Because, right before the posse came up, I believe she was recalling the horror stories about cannibalistic Indians (stories she heard from white people), and I thought her whole mission was to see the truth with her own eyes. Not sure.
Either way, Sarah’s ending still feels random and quickly thrown together, to me. Essie’s, Maggie’s, Beulah’s, even Amos’s endings all made sense to me. Sarah and Puah and Isaiah… I left unsatisfied.
I’m leaning towards giving this book 3.5 stars, because even the final final chapter (with the Ancestors speaking) went over my head. Seemed rambling to me. But perhaps 4 stars is more fair. I can’t decide!
It was a white posse. I don’t think they were ever in danger, of any Native Americans. I believe the whites told the slaves they were in danger, to deter them from running away.
I'm only just getting to read this now and I'm finding it so interesting that the book is dedicated to 'Mother Morrison and Father Baldwin'. The writing reminded me so much of Morrison's in particular, especially in the ways the ancestral spirit was mentioned and how each character was born with a fragment of ancestral trauma buried in them. I also really love how Jones jr. manages to convey women's feelings incredibly accurately despite not being a woman himself. The part in Puah's chapter where she mentioned that no matter how much care Be Auntie gave Dug, his hands would still grow large enough to wrap around her throat really resonated with me, as did most of her perspective. Can't wait to keep reading and see what else the book has in store.
Jones mentions in his YouTube videos, that whenever he got stuck, he would read Toni Morrison’s work, to see how she handled certain situations.
BernieMck wrote: "I kept hoping that Puah and Isaiah would meet up and travel onto freedom together.Timothy was disgraced. No eyes, just like the ni**ers in his dream.
I guess Samuel lost it, and instead of gett..."
Yes...finally know who's Sam's mom.
BernieMck wrote: "Alisha wrote: "Not gonna lie, I did not enjoy the ending. Like at all. I understand there was always an undertone of magic realism throughout the book… the constant consultation with African ancest..."Wow I missed those points somehow at the end. Solomon died? But the midend was a lot after Samuel's death. The last chapter was a bit confusing.
I finished the book today & I am still reeling from the last few chapters. The riot after Samuel’s death was by far the best series of chapters. It was fast paced, loads of discoveries were being uncovered and revealed. I will say the gate of Puah, Sarah, Maggie, and Isaiah, we’re a bit unsatisfying. All in all, I gave the book a 4 star rating. Robert’s descriptions & character development were among his strong suits.
BernieMck wrote: "I kept hoping that Puah and Isaiah would meet up and travel onto freedom together."Me too Bernie!!!! When that someone grabbed his ankle, I thought for sure that it was going to be Puah.
I finished the book over the weekend and still need time to fully digest it. I have not been very active on the discussion board but I've been keeping up with all the great points made! I will more than likely read this book again at some point. It's very well written but I was not feeling the ending. The ancestors speaking in the final chapter was wasted on me because I was so let down by the ending. The magical realism was always present and I appreciate the ancestors voice but it was not my fav. LOL! I wanted more for Maggie, Sarah, Puah and Isaiah and Samuel. Idk maybe a little bit of "...and we watched Ruth burn as the flames engulfed the big house. Hooray!" Just kidding...but I would not have been sad.
What struck me to my core in this book was the tenderness of black men. The tenderness between Isaiah and Samuel was so beautifully written. The tenderness and intimacy between Elewa and Kosii was so beautiful to me. Even Amos, in his twisted mind carrying Isaiah's birth name at the request of his dying mother and planning on telling him when he became a man almost like a rite of passage, only to leverage it against him (he started right and then went completely left). It made me think about the aggression (and sometimes violence) that black men face when trying to be vulnerable/intimate (not in the sexual way) within platonic friendships that black women do not face. It's encouraged for black women to have that sister circle, that safe space where as black men are not. I don't know, I was feeling everything reading this. LOL! I gave it 4 stars. Okay, that's the end of my rambling.
Julia wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "I kept hoping that Puah and Isaiah would meet up and travel onto freedom together."Me too Bernie!!!! When that someone grabbed his ankle, I thought for sure that it was going to..."
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Keep reading, it’s coming 😉"
yep got it now. :)