Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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The Prophets
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Discussion: The Prophets
BernieMck wrote: "Jedah wrote: "Can we take a moment and bow our heads at how he uses pronouns in I Kings."All the chapters that included the Africans, are phenomenal. I had to do some rereading, to understand tha..."
I wondered too. I know in some parts of Africa, women are the rulers and the males take on their last names for instance. But I cannot digest it either at this time. I am also trying to connect if they are the ancestors, or just another part of the story, and trying to figure how it all ties in.
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I assumed it was due to the fact that they refused to propagate to ensure the plantations future but I didn’t actually see that.
@ColumbusReads I'm pretty sure it was Ruth's doing. After feeling rejected by Samuel in the barn.
Hello All! I agree with Angelica that Ruth was behind the beating. I wonder who all rushed to stand on the wagon, so sad.
Julia wrote: "Hello All! I agree with Angelica that Ruth was behind the beating. I wonder who all rushed to stand on the wagon, so sad."Yeah that hurt my heart.
ColumbusReads wrote: "Ok, I have a friend who is reading the discussion but not part of the group. But she had the same question I had. Why was Samuel and Isaiah beaten? I’m on page 189 so I’m within the discussion para..."I'm here. Just a different name.
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Oh, hey Michelle. Lol
Adrienna wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "Jedah wrote: "Can we take a moment and bow our heads at how he uses pronouns in I Kings."All the chapters that included the Africans, are phenomenal. I had to do some rereading,..."
I think the ancestors go way back in time.
Ruth causing the beatin for me comes as no surprise. She wanted her some Samuel, but to also discover them in their realness, pissed her off.
ColumbusReads wrote: "Adrienna wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "Reading schedule:-Judges through Amos - pages 1-79 til Aug 6th
-Genesis through Balm In Gilead - page 173 til Aug 11th
(we just gonna skip over Leviticus fo..."
Why are we skilling Leviticus for obvious reasons? It looks like now we are past Balm in Gilead today. I am further along in the read, but only have like 3 days left from library loan for both audio/eBook
Adrienna wrote: "Ruth causing the beatin for me comes as no surprise. She wanted her some Samuel, but to also discover them in their realness, pissed her off."Ruth was pissed alright. When she mounted Samuel in the barn, he didn’t exactly rise to the occasion.
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-Judges through Amos - pages 1-79 til Aug 6th
-Genesis through Balm In Gilead - page 173 til Aug 11th
(we just gonna ..."
Adrienna, it was a joke.
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I love how we’re introduced to Timothy and the prose changes a bit. At least it does for me. It’s no longer the poetic, ornate, metaphorical language and a little more “plain.” What’s your thoughts on Timothy?
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Ruth was pissed alright. When she mo..."
Hahahaha
ColumbusReads wrote: "What’s your thoughts on King Akusa? I think someone brought up that she (was about to use he and caught myself) is the authors favorite character. Also, the land of Kosongo which is likely based on..."Timothy thought he was different. Better than the other slave holders. But he was still in the business of oppression and making people do things against their will. He just figured he try to serve it up with a side order of hope, promising them their freedom. Whether he honestly intended to do that or it was just a ploy to get Samuel to be submissive is up for interpretation.
ColumbusReads wrote: "I expressly made the comment about Leviticus as a joke. Many Christians in the past (and some currently) have used this book, particularly, to condemn gays with the quote from Leviticus 18:22 “You ..."I already knew you were joking but thank you for this background info. I’m not an avid Bible reader, so I went and looked up what you referenced. Interesting.
As for about King Akusa, I love her too. I’d say she’s my second favorite character behind Maggie. And lol, it also took me forever to get the pronouns straightened out in those chapters on the Kosovo tribe. Thank you for the real life information about Kosovo and the Ottoman Empire. That’s interesting to know.
I love the entire chapter of II Kings. The description of the marriage ceremony was beautiful. Then dialogue between King Akusa and the colorless man, Gabriel. I think King Akusa’s inner monologue describes the closed-mindedness of many Western ideals perfectly:“…this pale man…was evidently ignorant and knew nothing of the world as it actually existed. His vision was limited to this realm. ‘Two men?’ These colorless people had the strangest system of grouping things together by what they did not understand… he could see bodies, but it was clear he could not see spirits. It was humorous to observe someone who did not know the terrain but refused to admit it… bumping into trees then asking who put them in their path so suddenly.”
I love that whole paragraph. It speaks of spirituality and also the need to open your mind towards other lifestyles, even those which you may not understand.
I have currently been reading another book, which is on Eastern philosophy (“Become What You Are” by Alan Watts). I wanted to quote something I read in this book, which I think also explains the ignorance of the colorless colonizer whom King Akusa critiques:
“… a Catholic mystic was saying of God, ‘By love He may be gotten and holden, but by thought never,” and that God must be known through ‘unknowing’… and the love of which he spoke was not emotion. It was the general state of mind which exists when a man… is no longer trying to grasp himself, to order everything and be dictator of the universe.”
I think this ties in perfectly with the Western philosophy Gabriel (the colorless man) brings with him. He sees two men. He believes their union is “sodom” and would prevent them ever having access to Heaven. He believes this because he’s following the concrete word/rules written in his Bible. But Gabriel cannot understand living life by the guidance of what you cannot read/study. He cannot grasp living by not knowing and by following the unseen (i.e. ancestors).
A few times throughout the book, Maggie or Sarah, for example, have received insight from their ancestors that confuses them. They don’t know the reason behind their ancestors’s advice. But they follow it anyways. Such is something that white Americans cannot do. We see an example in the chapter Paul.
Paul sees the sun illuminate on S & I (a sign of that their union is favored, not a sin like he would like to believe). Then Paul sees the ghost of his mother warning him to back off, to leave S & I alone. All these signs from his ancestors, yet Paul continues to follow the empirical guidance of the Bible (and the rules of what he knows about being a slave owner), which tells him that he must break apart these two Black men who won’t give him more child slaves.
I thought Timothy was an interesting character. I'm ahead in my reading because of my library due date, so I want to be cautious about spoilers. I wonder if Timothy represents the inaccurate trope "there were good slave owners" as he talks about himself that way and talks about freeing the slaves, but is actually crafted to point out how far from "good" he was.
Michelle wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "What’s your thoughts on King Akusa? I think someone brought up that she (was about to use he and caught myself) is the authors favorite character. Also, the land of Kosongo wh..."Everything you wrote, Michelle! Timothy is no better than his father. He’s using his power and position to force his slaves to do what he wants.
And honestly, his fetishization makes him grosser. I didn’t see him act kindly towards any of the other slaves. We only see him offer some “kindness” to S & I, and he seems to do this only because he’s attracted to them. Not because he sees their humanity. He wants to invade their monogamous love/bond and make it a threesome. And he uses his power position to force them to let him in.
It also seems he finds white people inherently impure. When he describes the white people he met in the North, you can hear his contempt for them. He’s self-hating, and think that’s the only reason he wants to befriend Black people and their culture. Not for their benefit, but for his own.
Timothy pissed me off so much. I hate that white savior mentality. I never felt Timothy truly saw the slaves as humans, although he claimed he did.
One great example of his ignorance: when he made Isaiah sit down for a painting. Timothy finished and walked away without telling Isaiah he could get up and leave. When Timothy looked back and saw Isaiah still sitting, he thought it was because Isaiah enjoyed the comfort of the chair and liked sitting down/relaxing.
Omg. How out of touch. NO. Isaiah was afraid to move and break the order of his white master (Timothy) without being excused. Timothy is so disconnected from the reality of the psychological abuse and trauma of slaves, this doesn’t even cross his mind.
Since I’m venting about parts that pissed me off, let me also quickly throw in an example his mom’s (Ruth’s) disconnect. I started fuming at this part from her chapter, when she was enjoying her flower garden:
“She thought maybe wake Maggie and Essie. She wanted them to smell the garden as it was supposed to be smelled, too. And wouldn’t they want to be awakened? Surely after backbreaking work in the cotton field and in the kitchen… A tear dripped from…her eye. She had never before felt so generous… To have wanted to invite [them] meant her heart was big no matter what else it was also capable of.”
So many facepalms. Yes, instead of letting them rest after a whole day of your abuse, I’m sure they would love for you to order them (not invite them, because if they do not have the freedom to refuse, then it is not an invitation for them) to come indulge in what YOU think is beautiful.
I think these two instances of Timothy and Ruth believing in their “consideration/sympathy” towards slaves, believing they know what the slaves want/think must be the author’s way of trying to add some humor to the story, in an offhand way, for us readers. Because while it did make me mad, I also had to laugh at the white people’s ignorance.
Alisha wrote: "Michelle wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "What’s your thoughts on King Akusa? I think someone brought up that she (was about to use he and caught myself) is the authors favorite character. Also, the l..."I don’t recall any instances of Ruth having “consideration/sympathy” towards any of the slaves. She was always using and under minding them. She lied about Samuel and Isaiah looking at her; She lied about Maggie stealing her dress; She lied about Adam stealing the silverware.
Before Timothy (whom I didn’t like either) tried to have sex with S&I, he at least visited them and attempted some kindness.
Ruth also visited them in the barn. She went in mean and left the same way. In the end, you are right, they both used their positions to dominate. Although I didn’t like Timothy, I disliked Ruth more.
BernieMck wrote: "Alisha wrote: "Michelle wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "What’s your thoughts on King Akusa? I think someone brought up that she (was about to use he and caught myself) is the authors favorite charact..."I said Ruth BELIEVES she is considerate/sympathetic; I didn’t say Ruth is so. That’s why I included that quote. She thought that because Maggie and Essie crossed her mind while she was enjoying the flowers, that must mean she has a “big heart”. What seems delusional to us, she truly believed (i.e. that she’s a considerate person).
Karen Michele wrote: "I thought Timothy was an interesting character. I'm ahead in my reading because of my library due date, so I want to be cautious about spoilers. I wonder if Timothy represents the inaccurate trope ..."That term really annoys me(good slaveowner). It is an oxymoron. Timothy had some education and therefore a little more knowledge. It was clear that he was going to run Empty some day, and while he declared he would free slaves, in the next breath he said not all of them, because he would need some to work the land. This showed me his lack of humanity. Time for him to takeover, I think he would be a much better record keeper, Maybe he would even make everyone say negro instead of ni**er, but I also believe he would be just as much of a cruel slave owner as his dad.
Remember when Timothy went to school, he learned that the northerners did not know what to do, with the slaves after they were freed. He also wondered how the work on the plantation would continue.)
BernieMck wrote: "Karen Michele wrote: "I thought Timothy was an interesting character. I'm ahead in my reading because of my library due date, so I want to be cautious about spoilers. I wonder if Timothy represents..."Agreed 100%. He was willing to free them until he realized how it would inconvenience him.
I’m really glad the author included someone like Timothy in this novel. I think it’s important to highlight, because these same kind of people still exist today. E.g. closet racists. There is a gradient of racist behavior, but racism is still racism.
Unless Timothy completely unties himself (and ALL slaves) from his family’s legacy, he can never be any better than his father.
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You were reading my mind, Alisha. I was thinking the same thing about the author including a character like Timothy in this novel. We see here that racism appears in different forms and that they’re all rather ugly. Whether it’s structural, internalized, institutional, deep-seated or more covert, it’s all ugly. I could read right through Timothy from jump.
ColumbusReads wrote: "Alisha wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "Karen Michele wrote: "I thought Timothy was an interesting character. I'm ahead in my reading because of my library due date, so I want to be cautious about spoiler..."Timothy was attempting to be a member of the “I have a black friend” crew, until he got sidetracked by S&I’s shadows.
Alisha wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "Alisha wrote: "Michelle wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "What’s your thoughts on King Akusa? I think someone brought up that she (was about to use he and caught myself) is the author..."We will have to agree to disagree. I don’t think she believes any such thing. She has not done one thing, to even almost make me think she considers herself, to be anything more than the b**ch she is. She is loyal to the fact that “Ni**rs are way beneath her”, and she treats them as such. If she thought waking Maggie and Essie at night to look at a garden was so kind, why didn’t she actually do it. I don’t think Ruth cared much for anyone besides Timothy, never mind the slaves.
Alisha wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "Karen Michele wrote: "I thought Timothy was an interesting character. I'm ahead in my reading because of my library due date, so I want to be cautious about spoilers. I wonder if ..."👍🏾 You right
To survive in this place, you had to want to die. That was the way of the world as remade by toubab, and Samuel’s list of grievances was long: They pushed people into the mud and then called them filthy. They forbade people from accessing any knowledge of the world and then called them simple. They worked people until their empty hands were twisted, bleeding, and could do no more, then called them lazy. They forced people to eat innards from troughs and then called them uncivilized. They kidnapped babies and shattered families and then called them incapable of love. They raped and lynched and cut up people into parts, and then called the pieces savage. They stepped on people’s throats with all their might and asked why the people couldn’t breathe. And then, when people made an attempt to break the foot, or cut it off one, they screamed “CHAOS!” and claimed that mass murder was the only way to restore order.
BernieMck wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "Alisha wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "Karen Michele wrote: "I thought Timothy was an interesting character. I'm ahead in my reading because of my library due date, so I want to be ..."Yass!
BernieMck wrote: "To survive in this place, you had to want to die. That was the way of the world as remade by toubab, and Samuel’s list of grievances was long: They pushed people into the mud and then called them f...""They praised every daisy and then called every blackberry a stain. They bled the color from God's face, gave it a dangle between its legs, and called it holy. Then, when they were done breaking things, they pointed at the sky and called the color of the universe itself a sin."
BernieMck wrote: "Adrienna wrote: "Ruth causing the beatin for me comes as no surprise. She wanted her some Samuel, but to also discover them in their realness, pissed her off."Ruth was pissed alright. When she mo..."
ah ha! That right there.
ColumbusReads wrote: "What’s your thoughts on King Akusa? I think someone brought up that she (was about to use he and caught myself) is the authors favorite character. Also, the land of Kosongo which is likely based on..."Tim is a lost kid. He knows his parents mess with the slaves and have children, he is tryin to figure it out since he went up North for educational purposes and now Paul, his dad, wished he stayed in the South to know the ways. He is fascinated with Samuel and Zay, Isaiah, and really Zay--painting, really a window to his lust, and hm.
BernieMck wrote: "Alisha wrote: "Michelle wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "What’s your thoughts on King Akusa? I think someone brought up that she (was about to use he and caught myself) is the authors favorite charact..."dislike both equally but agree with your intake.
Alisha wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "Karen Michele wrote: "I thought Timothy was an interesting character. I'm ahead in my reading because of my library due date, so I want to be cautious about spoilers. I wonder if ..."yes they have nerve to call so called closet racists, unconscious bias like they do not know they are doin it. come on. I work with some too.
Think it was Melissa, my library copies are due in 2 days, both audio and eBook.was there cannibalism in Bel and the Dragon section?
who did in Tim?--Paul's section.
I’m curious , what page is everyone on? I’ve finished the book, but want to be careful about spoilers
Adrienna wrote: "who did in Tim?--Paul's section."Keep reading, it’s coming 😉
Alisha wrote: "I’m curious , what page is everyone on? I’ve finished the book, but want to be careful about spoilers"I’ve finished as well
Adrienna wrote: "Think it was Melissa, my library copies are due in 2 days, both audio and eBook.was there cannibalism in Bel and the Dragon section?"
I don’t recall any cannibalism
Alisha wrote: "I’m curious , what page is everyone on? I’ve finished the book, but want to be careful about spoilers"I'm finished.
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Entire book open August 20th
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Entire book open August 20th
I like the phrase: "never ask a man his thoughts before he has had an opportunity to come." The phrase before hand, speaks on "you are 'a people. Love is possible.'" Seems like Tim didn't believe that black folks can love, now he sees, it is possible.However, Tim is selling them a freedom that seems too good to be true. We have seen this time and time again, doesn't seem like we'll ever get the 40 acres and a mule, imagine how much this is worth today...a million, a billion even?
not finished yet, still have about 20% left.
Bel and Dragon: "they had skulls around their necks...humans. No bigger than your own." eBook p. 805 or 62%. I see they were captured, on ships, etc. and its brutality's of the pale or colorless men. I see other passages use metaphorically terms which can seem like cannibalisms characteristics while listening to audiobook while doin a puzzle at the time. Maybe these skulls were worn as symbols or like when people hunt and put the head of the animal in their homes on the wall usually above the fireplace.
p 809 in ebook, further states cannibals...king asuka to survive the cannibals, so I am not tripping....in the bel and dragon chapter or section. I had to go back since two said they do not recall or recollect.
She has insider knowledge of how men cannot un..."
Valid Points. There's a passage in the Bible, do not have it in front of me, "mountain be ye not moved" meaning this mountain cannot be moved. And we should not be moved since something so large like an obstacle steps in our way, we should not be moved by it. We can overcome it.
Interesting on the sexual abuse since many slaves were raped, taken, and used as property to make more babies to sell off and profit from, such as work the field, etc. Called 'chattel' yet treated like cattle.