Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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The Prophets
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Discussion: The Prophets
ColumbusReads wrote: "I was struck too about one of the Goodreads criticisms that the prose was too “flowery” and the author should’ve just stuck to plain writing. He felt the author was like showing off his writing ski..."Sorry not familiar with the term used: highfaultin?
Adrienna wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "Adrienna wrote: "Alisha wrote: "Read through to page 79 (chapter “Genesis”). What’s the next place we are to read to, and by when?I would love to hear input from those familiar ..."
The length of a prophet’s book (# of chapters) determines whether he is major or minor. Every book has at least 1 chapter. The book of Jonah has 4 chapters.
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-Judges through Amos - pages 1-79 til Aug 6th
-Genesis through Balm In Gilead - page 173 til Aug 11th
(we just gonna skip over Leviticus for obvious reasons..."
From the 1st to the 6th we’ll be discussing the text through Amos. So, beginning on the 7th, we’ll be discussing through Balm of Gilead.
Great, just picked up the book from the library today. I took a look at some of the comments thus far, can't wait to dive into it tonight!
Anyone else notice the first chapter is written in second person and the second chapter in first person and the third in third person...? I adore the book so far -- the creativity, the highfalutin language -- some would find it confusing, and I appreciate that. It makes you work to understand humans who are in an unfathomable position.
ColumbusReads wrote: "I was struck too about one of the Goodreads criticisms that the prose was too “flowery” and the author should’ve just stuck to plain writing. He felt the author was like showing off his writing ski..."I'm not sure I'm replying to a comment correctly (ha). Interesting that someone stated that a criticism was that the prose was too 'flowery'. That's really interesting and I would not at all use the term flowery to describe what I've read thus far. At all 60 pages in I appreciate the prose, the descriptions, the eloquence and thoughtful way this book is written. The descriptions and detail are vivid, and they evoke the emotion and stories of the characters in a way that allows me to feel and empathize with them...just my 2 cents! I'm enjoying this book, the love, the beauty, and the tragedies.
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Glad you got a copy of the book, Taylor. Jump in when you can.
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Yes, you are replying correctly.
I think the person or people who described the book as “flowery” were trying to imply that he could have made the writing more accessible to readers. That it was written in an unnecessarily poetic style that made for an unpleasant reading experience (for them). Read: pretentiously highbrow is what I got from the criticism.
Ah, understood. I’m not sure I agree but I can see where they might be coming from. Personally, I appreciate the author’s choice in creative expression.
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Totally agree.
I was glad to watch the video shared earlier this week. What are your thoughts on Amos? He is willing to do what the master expects of them, make children, where the master can use them as cattle, property, or profit from them. He thinks he is doing right by them; even after he realized he is not the pappy of Essie's baby. He seems mentally challenged at times, confused, wavered, and so harsh on Isaiah and Samuel as if they should mate too. He is definitely brainwashed, "be fruitful and multiply".
I started this book a weak ago. I'm at page 314. I have a like/ dislike feel for the book...more like though. Interested in the opinion of others.
Alisha, I have a quote that I noted but its beyond the 1st 79 pages.
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Also, as many books about the enslaved or the narratives I’ve read, I don’t ever recall hearing the term toubab before.
ColumbusReads wrote: "Adrienna asked about Amos and I’m curious as to what others thought of him. But also your thoughts on him and Essie and the circumstances as to how they got together.Also, as many books about the..."
In the Roots movie, Kizzie kept using the term toubab. From the way she said it, I figured out what it meant. When it was mentioned in the book, my memory said Aha !
ColumbusReads wrote: "Adrienna wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "Reading schedule:-Judges through Amos - pages 1-79 til Aug 6th
-Genesis through Balm In Gilead - page 173 til Aug 11th
(we just gonna skip over Leviticus fo..."
Why are we skipping Leviticus ?
Alisha wrote: "Read through to page 79 (chapter “Genesis”). What’s the next place we are to read to, and by when?I would love to hear input from those familiar with the Bible headings that serve as the chapters..."
I believe the true prophets are the ancestors(Black Elders). I believe their spirits hovering over S & I in the Essie chapter were there, because they approved of S & I’s relationship.
I was a bit confused the first 2-3 chapters in. I think some have said it was like poetry other like a dream. I suppose my reliance on linear storytelling makes the opaque story sometimes hard to decipher. But I think I've sussed out the authors rhythm and am now enjoying it more (about 150 pages in). But I think there was a missed opportunity with the Amos character. Amos was at least cordial with "The Two of Them" up until he asks Paul to teach him the Bible. Paul did so very reluctantly. I was waiting to see what it took to turn an uniformed slave into a Bible thumping preacher. How Paul could justify to Amos his slavery versus his "Christian" ideals. But suddenly with no explanation Amos is preaching to the rest of the slave about the abomination of the homosexuality of Isiah and Samuel. How and why did he get there? It didn't seem to me that his need for allies and the scapegoating of them was enough to set this nefarious plan of Amos in motion.
Adrienna wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "Adrienna wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "Some chapter names correspond to books of the bible. I am interested in knowing why. I've figured ou..."Maggie wasn’t my favorite character, but I understand her being selected as a favorite. She was a strong woman who stood up for her beliefs, a few times in the book, where others would have been too afraid. Her loyalty could not be swayed.
Maggie named her baby Solomon because “he half mine and half ain’t”Bible Reference:
King Solomon was a very wise king. When 2 women claimed to be the mother of the same baby, (after 1 of their babies died) King Solomon said he would settle the dispute, by cutting the living baby in half and giving each woman one of the halves. The real mother told the king to give the baby to the other woman. The king knew the real mother did not want her baby harmed, and he gave the real mother her child. I Kings 3:16-28
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-Judges through Amos - pages 1-79 til Aug 6th
-Genesis through Balm In Gilead - page 173 til Aug 11th
(we just gonna ..."
Was joking
ColumbusReads wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "Adrienna wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "Reading schedule:-Judges through Amos - pages 1-79 til Aug 6th
-Genesis through Balm In Gilead - page 173 til Aug 11..."
Oops, forgive me 😉
Adrienna wrote: "I was glad to watch the video shared earlier this week. What are your thoughts on Amos? He is willing to do what the master expects of them, make children, where the master can use them as cattle..."
I think Amos is bending over backwards and touching his toes for Paul, so Paul won’t ever lie with Essie again. He asked for the preaching gig, so he is going forward full throttle with it. Amos spends time with Paul and regurgitates what he is taught, with a better delivery.
I think Amos truly loves Essie, while she is kinda indifferent towards him. She appreciates his tenderness.
ColumbusReads wrote: "Adrienna asked about Amos and I’m curious as to what others thought of him. But also your thoughts on him and Essie and the circumstances as to how they got together.Also, as many books about the..."
I believe the term is in the book Roots. i read it a year or two ago and recall seein that term before.
BernieMck wrote: "ColumbusReads wrote: "Adrienna asked about Amos and I’m curious as to what others thought of him. But also your thoughts on him and Essie and the circumstances as to how they got together.Also, a..."
Exactly! I want to save it was another slavery book I read...I have to check my book list that I read about a year ago. It was about the woman slave, based on a true story, like Roots.
BernieMck wrote: "Maggie named her baby Solomon because “he half mine and half ain’t”Bible Reference:
King Solomon was a very wise king. When 2 women claimed to be the mother of the same baby, (after 1 of their b..."
Does this mean she wasn't the real mother like Be Auntie (Beluh) took children that were not hers like Puah? Or she felt she couldn't own her child since it could be sold off.
BernieMck wrote: "Adrienna wrote: "I was glad to watch the video shared earlier this week. What are your thoughts on Amos? He is willing to do what the master expects of them, make children, where the master can u..."
Thank you. Helped me see him in a different light. I thought he was like some would call an traitor and does what the master tells him. However, based on this comment, it was out of love and willing to do what it took for such. I guess when we read further, like Beluh, we will see something different or is it just getting it on.
Adrienna wrote: "BernieMck wrote: "Maggie named her baby Solomon because “he half mine and half ain’t”Bible Reference:
King Solomon was a very wise king. When 2 women claimed to be the mother of the same baby, (..."
Essie was the real mother and Paul was the father. The baby was half hers and half the master’s. Because of this Essie could not love the baby and she wanted it cut in half. Amos told her no.
true about Essie, for some reason, thought I read Maggie.
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-Discussing only through Amos (pg 79) til tomorrow
-Starting tomorrow, discussing through Balm In Gilead (pg 173) til 8/11
-Starting 8/12 we’ll be discussing through Bel…Dragon (pg 246) til 8/19
Entire book open 8/20
I saw Amos as a survivalist. He also love Essie and knew he was powerless to have her as his own. He figured he could protect her from Paul, by doing Paul's bidding as a preacher. It appears that Paul did stay away from her in that time. I see Amos as one track minded in his desire to protect Essie. He accused Zay and Samuel of sacrificing the whole for thier own selves, but in a way, he was sacrificing the whole (including Isaiah and Samuel) for the benefit of Essie and himself. These benefits stood on shaky ground.
I am enjoying the writing style of the book. I am listening to it as that's what I could get from the library in time to join in, but I may switch to print to get the full impact of the writing. I watched an interview with the author from the Hay Festival and he accentuated that he wanted to focus readers on the relationship of Isaiah and Samuel as a representation of LGBTQ+ people always existing. I appreciate the biblical references many of you are adding.
”Men and toubab shared far more than either would ever admit. Just ask anyone who had ever been at their mercy. They both took what they wanted; asking was never a courtesy. Both smiled first, but pain always followed. And, too, both claimed they had good reason for this absurd behavior”
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Yes, I like how he keeps referencing Toni Morrison when she said (paraphrasing): If there’s a book you really want to read, but it hasn’t been written yet, then you must write it. There were no black, gay men characters written about pre-Reconstruction so he wrote the dang thing himself. At least none that weren’t all tragic figures.
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Samuel had the kind of eyes that invited people over, greeted them, and then quietly shut the door in their faces. And for some reason, standing out there on the wrong side of it, people felt compelled to keep banging on the door until, by some mercy, he opened it.
Favorite character so far, is Maggie. Her grit, silent confidence, bitterness towards the youth, and small poisonous tactics of power that she holds dear to herself. She also quite judgmental towards the other slaves on that inhabit the Empty. Her quote about Amos, "...every glint in his eye and click of his tongue was deception. Yet he was so proud. People liked pride. Mistook it for purpose." She never lets herself get too close or take in any kindness too personally.
I'm envisioning the Other Puah and Sam-u-well dancing, in the arms of each other, as it closes there when the two of them call her name. She drifted off...imagining him wanting a woman--her. It is amazing where our imagination can take us.
Tricia wrote: "I saw Amos as a survivalist. He also love Essie and knew he was powerless to have her as his own. He figured he could protect her from Paul, by doing Paul's bidding as a preacher. It appears that P..."Yes, there were many during enslavement that were what we call 'survivalist' by doin whatever it took to live even hurting or being a traitor to their very own. Sad we still see this slavery mentality today.
Babel--wow, treating Samuel and Isaiah like animals, horses...is James the cousin of Paul, right?My favorite chapter so far is Balm of Gilead, the author did not fail on this.
Balm of Gilead, love how the women bond together whether they wanted to or not, each had a unique quality that meshed together. I love the sister hood which I wish we can get together even when the men have lost themselves as it was stated in this chapter. We have to keep them together, be their light, give them strength and build them up.
"I name him Solomon because he half mine and half ain't."Just started reading this today. Jones writing is wrought with emotion. This one sentence is just one piece of evidence of how he is able to express so much with just a few words
I’m curious about opinions of Be Auntie? Her take towards sexuality seems, to me, the textbook result of sexual abuse. Wisdom, but also misled ideas.She has insider knowledge of how men cannot understand intimacy. I love her analysis of Amos. In a conversation with him, she asks him why he doesn’t let Essie take the lead. Amos can’t understand that trying to have sex with Essie (in his words, he’s just trying to “make her forget” and show her she’s still beautiful) without Essie initiating it is tantamount to him continuing to degrade her after her rape.
But Be Auntie is also kinda the plantation’s “lady of the night”. But I guess she initially became that way not by choice, but because she couldn’t escape sex, so she decided to yield to it.
“Water done worn away her stone, and next thing she knew, she was a damn river when she could have sworn she was a mountain… Beulah was a mountain. Be Auntie was a river.”
She’s willing to sleep with men and be their doormat. She supposedly does this for altruistic reasons… for the benefit of other women on the plantation.
“… she made it so that there would be more grace waiting for them when they, too, made the decent.”
But she also likes to see the children of rape and sees sexual abuse as a “rite of passage”:
“Be Auntie (not Beulah) doted over every boy-child — especially the ones whose color had been meddled with. Every girl-child, particularly the ones whose skin was raven, she lorded over or left to fend for herself (as Beulah wept). Womens had to look after womens, yes. But first there had to be trial and she refused to interfere with that sacred passage for any woman.”
And she often scoffs at Puah, who continuously escapes any sexual abuse.
So there’s some internal conflict… two personalities. But overall, Be Auntie is who exists throughout the story. And I feel her ideas are disagreeable. So it’s hard to know how to feel towards her character.
Alisha wrote: "I’m curious about opinions of Be Auntie? Her take towards sexuality seems, to me, the textbook result of sexual abuse. Wisdom, but also misled ideas.She has insider knowledge of how men cannot un..."
The fact that Be Auntie is sleeping with Amos behind Essie’s back, and treating Puah harshly, is enough for me to know, that I do not like her.
Adrienna wrote: "Balm of Gilead, love how the women bond together whether they wanted to or not, each had a unique quality that meshed together. I love the sister hood which I wish we can get together even when the..."I concur
Can we take a moment and bow our heads at how he uses pronouns in I Kings.
Jedah wrote: "Can we take a moment and bow our heads at how he uses pronouns in I Kings."All the chapters that included the Africans, are phenomenal. I had to do some rereading, to understand that King Akusa was a woman, with male and female wives. My mind did not naturally, see that as a possibility.
Adrienna wrote: "Babel--wow, treating Samuel and Isaiah like animals, horses...is James the cousin of Paul, right?My favorite chapter so far is Balm of Gilead, the author did not fail on this."
Yes James is Paul’s cousin. James’ and Paul’s mother’s are sisters.
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http://www.largeheartedboy.com/blog/a...
I would love to hear input from those familiar with the Bible hea..."
So it is only length of chapters in the Bible is why they are Minor/Major, hm. If not mistaken, not all have a chapter in the Bible but are still a prophet? I may have to check my Bible, because I do not think Jonah has a chapter but was considered a prophet to go speak to those in Ninevah.