Dickensians! discussion
Buddy Reads
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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
It certainly does seem that Dickens came out of his education with a more progressive view toward some aspects of treating children, though he does also seem to have been pretty harsh with his own sons.Peggoty is an angel, and it was so nice to see Clara’s note in the bag with the coins and food. Clara cares though she can no longer openly show it.
This was a great little transition chapter. I loved Peggotty jumping out of the bushes! The scene with the waiter showed how much of a child Davy still is and how trusting. Being sent to the school during holidays is such nastiness by Murdstone. But the sign he has to wear on his back, even more cruelty!
I’m wondering about the school being called Salem house. I hear Salem and think witch trials, would Dickens readers have a similar reaction?
Janelle wrote: "I’m wondering about the school being called Salem house. I hear Salem and think witch trials, would Dickens readers have a similar reaction?"I was thinking the same thing and the name struck me. There is something very malevolent and cruel for making him still have that sign on and be the subject of the boy's "games" while they circle around him and act like he is a dog.
Off the topic quick question: Does anyone here have a favorite version of this film that they enjoy watching? I know there are so many, but maybe from the BBC or something? I would love to watch a good and fairly faithful film adaptation alongside while reading.
Janelle wrote: "This was a great little transition chapter. I loved Peggotty jumping out of the bushes! The scene with the waiter showed how much of a child Davy still is and how trusting. Being sent to the school..."I also loved the scene with Peggotty - but my favourite part was immediately afterwards when all the buttons were found! Such a clever detail in the story.
Did anyone else think it was strange that no one accompanied Davy to London? Maybe I’m placing my modern sensibilities on the situation? Was it common for an eight year boy to travel like that without a chaperone?Frank, I haven’t watched any of the David Copperfield movies yet. But I’m excited to see one when I’ve finished the book.
Bridget, I think sending David with the various drivers and coachmen would be the equivalent of sending a child unaccompanied by air under the care of the attendants as I know is done. Can’t imagine doing it but sometimes there is no other option. In this case, I would guess it’s another part of David’s punishment.Obviously his meals had been paid for and people were watching for him at each stop. But he is meant to suffer as much as possible I think Murdstone really is awful. If I were to be generous I could speculate on what might have been done to him when he was a child. But I prefer to despise him.
Chapter 6 - the rest of the school returns. Mr Creakle, a friend of Murdstone, is clearly of like mind. It seems that Davy is making friends with the other boys, although Steerforth takes advantage of him by having him pay for a midnight feast, using up all his money. Does this mean Davy won’t be able to write home because he won’t have any money to buy stamps? Is Steerforth friend or foe? The jury is out on that one but I wonder why he is the only ‘parlour-boarder’, eating his meals with the proprietor and staff. He is favoured somehow as Creakle never punishes him but why is he at such an awful school in the first place?I’m reluctant to have a day off tomorrow!
Mod
The BBC one is excellent. It is the 2-part miniseries from 1999, with a young Daniel Radcliffe:
This heads our first group read thread!
Please LINK HERE for my group read post with more pictures and the cast. We have talked about it quite a bit (you can use the search field to find more) and everyone likes it a lot! The next post is about the latest film Angela mentions - only loosely based on the book but apparently a lot of fun.
There are several other versions also discussed, but for authenticity, definitely go for the BBC one!
And while I'm linking, LINK HERE for the post about the real life "Salem House" - no spoilers :) Yes, Charles Dickens knew the connotations of the word "Salem". The building was a school he had attended.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Franky wrote: "there are so many, but maybe from the BBC or something? ..."The BBC one is excellent. It is the 2-part miniseries from 1999, with a young Daniel Radcliffe:
This heads our first ..."
Bionic Jean wrote: "Franky wrote: "there are so many, but maybe from the BBC or something? ..."
The BBC one is excellent. It is the 2-part miniseries from 1999, with a young Daniel Radcliffe:
This heads our first ..."
Thanks for the link, Jean. It’s a much larger building than I had envisaged from the description in the book.
Franky wrote: "Janelle wrote: "I’m wondering about the school being called Salem house. I hear Salem and think witch trials, would Dickens readers have a similar reaction?"
I was thinking the same thing and the ..."
I've not watched any DC adaptations yet, but the one I'll seek out as soon as we finish the book is the one with Daniel Radcliffe and Maggie Smith. It's got to be good with them! Ever since I saw in the other thread that Daniel Radcliffe played David Copperfield, he's who I see and hear in my mind while I'm reading :D
I was thinking the same thing and the ..."
I've not watched any DC adaptations yet, but the one I'll seek out as soon as we finish the book is the one with Daniel Radcliffe and Maggie Smith. It's got to be good with them! Ever since I saw in the other thread that Daniel Radcliffe played David Copperfield, he's who I see and hear in my mind while I'm reading :D
Mod
Backtracking to chapter 5 -
An illustration by Harold Copping, 1924 - "David and the Friendly Waiter"
Chapter 6 illustration -
"He knows me and I know him..." by Fred Barnard, 1872
An illustration by Harold Copping, 1924 - "David and the Friendly Waiter"
Chapter 6 illustration -
"He knows me and I know him..." by Fred Barnard, 1872
Franky wrote: Off the topic quick question: Does anyone here have a favorite version of this film that they enjoy watching? I know there are so many, but maybe from the BBC or something? I would love to watch a good and fairly faithful film adaptation alongside while reading. ."My favorite version (so far) was made in 1935 - I greatly enjoy old black and white films- some of the stars were: W. C. Fields
Freddie Bartholomew
Lionel Barrymore
Madge Evans
Maureen O'Sullivan
Here's a link to a small clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4wl2...
I very much like Traddles. Steerforth - I think you wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of him. He's good for David because David needs allies in this new place, but there's a price to pay - literally in this chapter. It almost felt like a kinder, gentler version of "protection money" in an old gangster movie. At least David's instincts were working - he has misgivings about Steerforth, but also values his assistance -
I smiled because he smiled, but I was a little troubled in my mind, too.
He was as good as his word, if that were all right which I had a secret misgiving was nearly all wrong—for I feared it was a waste of my mother’s two half-crowns....
Ugh Mr Creakle! This description of his hair cracks me up -
...had some thin wet-looking hair that was just turning grey, brushed across each temple, so that the two sides interlaced on his forehead.
What a bizarre thing that he whispers and has Tungay be his sort of megaphone. I get the same strange cultish feeling from Creakle that I did from Mr Murdstone when he says this, with that repetitive, liturgical sense again -
"I am a determined character," said Mr. Creakle. "That’s what I am. I do my duty. That’s what I do."
I wondered if Creakle and Mr Murdstone knew each other from business. I'm guessing Creakle having a business in hops was beer? Mr Murdstone does something with wine, maybe their paths crossed in business circumstances.
Interesting about Salem House - I forgot to read the original DC thread yesterday and missed that. It looks nicer on the outside than what I pictured, but not so great on the inside I'm sure.
Sue - too funny that you choose to despise Mr Murdstone at this point! I'm with you right now - even altering my perspective to account for the times, Mr Murdstone seemed to enjoy the opportunity to punish David. There's parental correction that comes from love, and parental correction that comes from anger. There was no feeling of love coming from Mr Murdstone in anything he did with David. Whether he's sadistic or not, I don't know but he did not act out of love. And David mentions the dark blood and dark religion of the Murdstones - there's something not right with them.
I smiled because he smiled, but I was a little troubled in my mind, too.
He was as good as his word, if that were all right which I had a secret misgiving was nearly all wrong—for I feared it was a waste of my mother’s two half-crowns....
Ugh Mr Creakle! This description of his hair cracks me up -
...had some thin wet-looking hair that was just turning grey, brushed across each temple, so that the two sides interlaced on his forehead.
What a bizarre thing that he whispers and has Tungay be his sort of megaphone. I get the same strange cultish feeling from Creakle that I did from Mr Murdstone when he says this, with that repetitive, liturgical sense again -
"I am a determined character," said Mr. Creakle. "That’s what I am. I do my duty. That’s what I do."
I wondered if Creakle and Mr Murdstone knew each other from business. I'm guessing Creakle having a business in hops was beer? Mr Murdstone does something with wine, maybe their paths crossed in business circumstances.
Interesting about Salem House - I forgot to read the original DC thread yesterday and missed that. It looks nicer on the outside than what I pictured, but not so great on the inside I'm sure.
Sue - too funny that you choose to despise Mr Murdstone at this point! I'm with you right now - even altering my perspective to account for the times, Mr Murdstone seemed to enjoy the opportunity to punish David. There's parental correction that comes from love, and parental correction that comes from anger. There was no feeling of love coming from Mr Murdstone in anything he did with David. Whether he's sadistic or not, I don't know but he did not act out of love. And David mentions the dark blood and dark religion of the Murdstones - there's something not right with them.
Mod
Just popped back to remind everyone that if you read one of our side reads The Life of Charles Dickens: The Illustrated Edition by John Forster it includes some of Charles Dickens's autobiographical notes (used for this novel). Both this book and our current side read The Victorian City: Everyday Life in Dickens' London make it clear that Charles Dickens lived on his own while his parents lived in the Marshalsea prison, and was responsible for himself, buying his own food, and paying his own bills, at a very young age.
So yes, Davy's journey is not unusual for this time.
So we're one week and 6 chapters into David Copperfield.
Is everyone still content with the pace of a chapter a day with a day off between the installments? Does anyone want to pick up the pace? If anyone wants to read ahead, that's perfectly fine. Whatever works so this is fun!
Is everyone still content with the pace of a chapter a day with a day off between the installments? Does anyone want to pick up the pace? If anyone wants to read ahead, that's perfectly fine. Whatever works so this is fun!
I am happy with one chapter a day. Keeps me.from stressing that I will fall behind.
I’d be happy not to have a day off but I don’t want to get ahead so I’ll stick with whatever we agree.
Ack, sorry everyone! I was planing to stay caught up, but wound up doing some heavy duty cleaning and home projects and going for shorter books! I'll try to catch up this week!
Bionic Jean wrote: "I'm loving all your comments and illustrations Cozy_Pug :)Just popped back to remind everyone that if you read one of our side reads [book:The Life of Charles Dickens: The Illustrated Edition|115..." WOW! Charles lived alone while his parents were in debtor's prison>!! I didn't know that.
About the name of the school, I was thinking of Salem as an abbreviation for Jerusalem as it sometimes is used. That way it gives the school quasi religious aires but also a hint of suffering for the students before they are “redeemed” or graduate, i e. their families stop paying.Cozy-Pug, I despised Murdstone earlier but the trip to school certainly cemented my dislike. The Murdstones really are hateful people in the most melodramatic way.
Cozy_Pug wrote: "So we're one week and 6 chapters into David Copperfield.Is everyone still content with the pace of a chapter a day with a day off between the installments? Does anyone want to pick up the pace? I..."
Looks like I need to start reading, to catch up.
Sue wrote: "About the name of the school, I was thinking of Salem as an abbreviation for Jerusalem as it sometimes is used. That way it gives the school quasi religious aires but also a hint of suffering for t..."That’s an interesting comment re Salem, Sue. It makes sense.
And it might fit with the religiosity we have seen. Bedlam was Bethlehem, I believe.
Cozy_Pug wrote: "So we're one week and 6 chapters into David Copperfield.Is everyone still content with the pace of a chapter a day with a day off between the installments? Does anyone want to pick up the pace? I..."
I'm happy without a day off, but. with that said, I've been busy this weekend and need to catch up with 5 & 6. Whatever everyone wants to do is good with me.
Interesting point about "Salem" Sue. Salem is related to shalom, meaning peace, but the actual Hebrew for Salem means complete or whole. Salem House doesn't seem to be a peaceful place, but I could see Creakle wanting to project the idea that his school developed the "whole" or "complete" man - as a selling point, only. I can't imagine his school developed complete men though. Completely lined Creakle's pockets, more likely. As you say, the name was probably chosen intentionally to give a particular impression to parents.
Nancy wrote: "Cozy_Pug wrote: "So we're one week and 6 chapters into David Copperfield.
Is everyone still content with the pace of a chapter a day with a day off between the installments? Does anyone want to pi..."
Tomorrow is a free day, Nancy - we start up again on Tuesday with chapter 7, if that helps you catch up. :)
Yes, Dickens was 12 when he went to work in the blacking factory. It's an event that affected and haunted him for the rest of his life. I'm reading a Dickens biography currently - such a fascinating man and life!
Is everyone still content with the pace of a chapter a day with a day off between the installments? Does anyone want to pi..."
Tomorrow is a free day, Nancy - we start up again on Tuesday with chapter 7, if that helps you catch up. :)
Yes, Dickens was 12 when he went to work in the blacking factory. It's an event that affected and haunted him for the rest of his life. I'm reading a Dickens biography currently - such a fascinating man and life!
If most are happy to continue on with a chapter a day and free days between installments, then let's carry on with that plan. :)
Edit to add - if some want to read ahead or need to delay then catch up with a bunch of chapters at once, that's fine, too. Whatever works and keeps the reading fun!
Edit to add - if some want to read ahead or need to delay then catch up with a bunch of chapters at once, that's fine, too. Whatever works and keeps the reading fun!
Cozy_Pug wrote: "Tomorrow is a free day, Nancy - we start up again on Tuesday with chapter 7, if that helps you catch up. :)Oh good. Thank you! I'm charging my Kindle right now, and reading a bit about it online. Fascinating story.
What's the name of the Dicken's biography?
Cozy_Pug wrote: "I could see Creakle wanting to project the idea that his school developed the "whole" or "complete" man - as a selling point, only. I can't imagine his school developed complete men though. Completely lined Creakle's pockets, more likely. As you say, the name was probably chosen intentionally to give a particular impression to parents. "Just for the fun of it, I looked up the definition of creak: a harsh scraping or squeaking sound.
"the creak of a floorboard broke the silence" and.....intransitive verb
: to make a prolonged grating or squeaking sound often as a result of being worn-out
I like these synonyms, given the description of Mr. Creakle: grind, jar, rasp, scrape, scratch, ooze and creep
That’s good, Nancy. Creakiest is something that needs to be fixed :-). I’m sure David would agree.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Franky wrote: "there are so many, but maybe from the BBC or something? ..."The BBC one is excellent. It is the 2-part miniseries from 1999, with a young Daniel Radcliffe:
This heads our first ..."
Thanks for the link and info. I think I do remember seeing that one when I was younger.
Mod
Nancy - that is absolutely spot-on! Charles Dickens's names are always significant, and he couldn't resist naming headmasters appropriately. So we have Wackford Squeers of "Dotheboys Hall" in Nicholas Nickleby, Thomas Gradgrind, the notorious school board Superintendent in Hard Times, a teacher in his model school Mr. M'Choakumchild and so on.
The sadistic Mr. Creakle was based on William Jones, the real life headmaster of Wellington Academy which Charles Dickens attended as a little boy from 1825 to 1827. There is quite a bit about this in The Life of Charles Dickens: The Illustrated Edition by John Forster.
I've been so busy this weekend, just sitting down to breakfast on Monday and catching up on the GR discussions.This pace works great for me CozyPug I like the day off to catch up on the discussions and the book if I need to. Also, I'm with you on not quite knowing what to make of Steerforth. He seems nice and villainous all at the same time. His name doesn't seem menacing though, and I think with Dickens that might indicate he will end up more good than bad.
Thank you to Sue and Jean with your thoughts about children traveling in Victorian times. I figured my modern brain was the problem and not Davy travelling alone :-)
I agree the Murdstones truly are awful. The placard Davy has to wear is over the top mean.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Thomas Gradgrind, the notorious school board Superintendent in Hard Times, a teacher in his model school Mr. M'Choakumchild and so on. ."That's almost funny, if it wasn't so sad, treating children so mercilessly. Choking children, oh my! Hoping to get a copy of Hard Times soon, too.
Bridget wrote: "the Murdstones truly are awful. The placard Davy has to wear"There are people just as predatory today, aren't there? The Murdstones were bad, yes.
I think I would have bitten that man too, if he'd been whipping me.
Nancy wrote: "Cozy_Pug wrote: "Tomorrow is a free day, Nancy - we start up again on Tuesday with chapter 7, if that helps you catch up. :)
Oh good. Thank you! I'm charging my Kindle right now, and reading a bit ..."
It's Dickens by Peter Ackroyd. Hard to find in the US - there's some used copies around but nothing on ebook. I need ebook so I can make the print huge. I just finished last night. The copy I read I found on internet archive - archive.org. It worked for me because you can zoom on that website.
There's 2 versions of the Ackroyd biography - a long one 1000+ pages, and an abridged one. I read the long one and highly recommend it. Fantastic biography.
Oh good. Thank you! I'm charging my Kindle right now, and reading a bit ..."
It's Dickens by Peter Ackroyd. Hard to find in the US - there's some used copies around but nothing on ebook. I need ebook so I can make the print huge. I just finished last night. The copy I read I found on internet archive - archive.org. It worked for me because you can zoom on that website.
There's 2 versions of the Ackroyd biography - a long one 1000+ pages, and an abridged one. I read the long one and highly recommend it. Fantastic biography.
Mod
Nancy - There are lots of recommendations of bios of Charles Dickens in this dedicated thread LINK HERE.
Nancy wrote: "Cozy_Pug wrote: "Tomorrow is a free day, Nancy - we start up again on Tuesday with chapter 7, if that helps you catch up. :)
Oh good. Thank you! I'm charging my Kindle right now, and reading a bit ..."
One other thing about the Dickens biography by Ackroyd - there are spoilers throughout. If you haven't read all the Dickens novels yet, something to consider.
I'm not bothered by the spoilers, so many were books I know very little about. By the time I read them, I'll have forgotten the spoilers so it'll still be new to me :D
But there are David Copperfield spoilers aplenty!
Oh good. Thank you! I'm charging my Kindle right now, and reading a bit ..."
One other thing about the Dickens biography by Ackroyd - there are spoilers throughout. If you haven't read all the Dickens novels yet, something to consider.
I'm not bothered by the spoilers, so many were books I know very little about. By the time I read them, I'll have forgotten the spoilers so it'll still be new to me :D
But there are David Copperfield spoilers aplenty!
Finally caught up with chapters 5 & 6. I've read through all of the comments and agree with the vile feeling we're all getting for Mr. Creaker. What an interesting choice of Dickens to give him a whispering but frightening voice. I can imagine him speaking in my mind and me trying hard not to chuckle! But then, with the description of him, seems rather clownish to me. I'm paraphrasing - red face, tiny eyes (beady eyes maybe), thick veins on his forehead that get thicker when he tries to talk because it takes so much energy, little nose and large chin. I mean, sounds and looks pretty comical in my imagination! Then he has a sidekick with a wooden leg, Tungay, who keeps repeating everything Creakle says! A very comic bit!And isn't it interesting how Creakle and Tungay were in the hops business (assuming this is alcohol) and bankrupted so why not go into education? Sure, great choice for a man who was at the lowest rank in school. (I think I've interpreted that correctly).
I like Tommy Traddles already. Steerforth, I am leary of. His name sort of gives an idea of steering clear of him. His special privileges seem suspicious and he has definitely not been quite kind to Davy by spending his money.
Lori wrote: "Finally caught up with chapters 5 & 6. I've read through all of the comments and agree with the vile feeling we're all getting for Mr. Creaker. What an interesting choice of Dickens to give him a w..."
That's too funny, we bankrupted our hops business, let's start a boys school! I'd not considered their ridiculous thought process :D
That's too funny, we bankrupted our hops business, let's start a boys school! I'd not considered their ridiculous thought process :D
Lori wrote: "Finally caught up with chapters 5 & 6. I've read through all of the comments and agree with the vile feeling we're all getting for Mr. Creaker. What an interesting choice of Dickens to give him a w..."I was thinking the exact same thing about Steerforth (Dickens is great with character names) and how it would be best to steer away from him. He seems like a manipulative little jerk hiding underneath his facade of good looks and being outspoken. I'm waiting for the other foot to fall in David's perception of him.
Mod
Steerforth is a beautifully ambiguous name. It can equally well indicate that he "steers forth" and see himself as a guide to Davy. His behaviour seems manipulative, in getting David's money out of him, and in today's chapter 7 we see what seems a shocking thing to do, in getting poor Mr. Mell dismissed. But "poor" is the operative word here.
Just to put things in context ...
A "gentleman" in English society at this time, would not work. He would have inherited his money. The exceptions were doctors, lawyers, clergymen, schoolmasters and financiers, all of whom were tolerated, although not to be respected quite as much. Tradesmen for instance, clerks and other working people, were looked down on.
It's hard to us to remember what a shameful thing "charity" was thought to be, in Victorian times. Poor people were often very proud. I can remember this from my own grandmother! They lived in fear of dying in the workhouse, and dreaded having to accept "charity".
The moneyed classes too, such as Steerforth, are conscious that they must never be tainted by charity. Steerforth is proud and vain, and cannot accept the position of having to learn from someone he despises. Kinder men in his position may not have mentioned it, but they would still feel it to be a slur. In Steerforth's case, he despises Mr. Mell, and this is the result.
With working men who keep to their proper status in society however, such as Dan Peggotty, Steerforth can afford to be all charm and charisma. He has:
"a kind of enchantment ... some inborn power of attraction besides (which I think a few people possess), to have carried a spell with him to which it was a natural weakness to yield, and which not many persons could withstand."
Steerforth views Mr. Mell as a kind of pretender. This is how Steerforth feels the world should be, with everyone in their proper place.
Do we believe that he intends to send any money to Mr Mell and his mother? Or is it that he feels he might lose his popularity with the boys, if he comes across as anything less than a generous benefactor.
"‘Shame, J. Steerforth! Too bad!’"
Bionic Jean wrote: "Franky wrote: "... Steerforth (Dickens is great with character names) and how it would be best to steer away from him..."Steerforth is a beautifully ambiguous name. It can equally well indicate t..."
I wondered about him taking the class when Mr Mell had left. Would he have been so much more advanced than the other pupils that he could do that? We don’t know what age he is but I imagine around 14 maybe?
Chapter 7 The older David speaks with such bitterness of his schooldays and particularly of that ‘incapable brute’ Mr Creakle, a sadist if ever there was one. He’s disgusted thinking back to how they were made to feel.Miserable little propitiators of a remorseless Idol, how abject we were to him! What a launch in life I think it now, on looking back, to be so mean and servile to a man of such parts and pretensions!
It’s sad to see Mr Mell leave but interesting to learn that he sees through Steerforth and worries about his influence over Davy. Steerforth is idolised by Davy and I still wonder how that will pan out. Certainly he’s outwardly charming to Mr Peggotty and Ham but I could sense his superiority and I imagine him mocking them inwardly. Their visit was wonderfully happy for Davy though.
So now he’s heading home for the holidays. I dread to think what awaits him there.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Franky wrote: "... Steerforth (Dickens is great with character names) and how it would be best to steer away from him..."Steerforth is a beautifully ambiguous name. It can equally well indicate t..."
Thank you for this, Jean. You have provided useful reminders that put the events in this chapter into context.
(I’m not commenting on Steerforth as I remember some of the events concerning him from when I read this before & don’t want to spoil this for others.)
Mod
Yes, its hard to imagine now but my aunt was appointed as what was called a "pupil-teacher" at 14, when she was still officially a pupil at the school. Steerforth is perhaps a little older that that at this point.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
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Agree about David's punishment and having to wear the placard as being especially very cruel and set up by Murdstone. Talk about psychological abuse. It reminds me of some of the public shaming stories I've seen.