Dickensians! discussion
Buddy Reads
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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
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I don't know how to copy an illustration directly into our conversation, but here is a link to the Phiz illustration for this chapter "A Stranger Calls to see me". I think that is a portrait of Dora over the mantlepiece in David and Agnes's parlor. That surprised me, but also I thought it was kind of sweet. Shows there are no hard feelings toward the Blossom by either David or Agnes. https://victorianweb.org/art/illustra...
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Emily's pregnancy (she needed special clothes making, remember?) often makes readers wonder what happened. Charles Dickens did not mention a child, but if you remember he could only refer to her condition obliquely, because it was considered so sinful. The baby would always be victimised, unless they moved away and she pretended to be a widow. Emily's disgrace is, after all, the reason for the family's emigration!
So did she lose the baby on the journey? Sea journeys were terribly hard, even for healthy people, and Emily had suffered before she was found by Dan Peggotty. Or it could have died when it was small. Again, none of these emigrants would have found their first few years easy, in a new country. They would be quite poor. Nor would Emily have had anyone to help her develop mothering skills suitable for the climate, or know about infectious diseases and the like.
I find Emily's story quite sad, but as you say Lori, she has stayed true to her character. She is kind and helpful, but has lost that silly vanity and is now a wiser woman.
An addendum to my last note: the final chapter isn’t long. The estimated time in my copy includes excerpts from Forster’s biography.
Emily's story is so very sad, Jean. We mourn for what she could have had and for everything that occurred as a result of her choice. As no doubt she will spend the rest of her life thinking about. Her choice to not marry may be part of her penitence she has made for herself. Bridget, thanks for the link to the picture. I had not looked that closely at the picture on the mantel. I'm sure that's Dora like you say.
Chapter 64 The end! Like others, the last few chapters are an anticlimax but then I wonder how else Dickens could have finished except with a recap. I had forgotten all about Julia Mills so I was surprised to find her mentioned but it felt as if it was only so that Dickens could vent his feelings towards those with a certain lifestyle.
I can’t thank this group enough - each one of you equally. I’ve enjoyed the discipline of a chapter a day and the pleasure of sharing our thoughts afterwards. I’ve learned so much from you all.
So what’s next?!
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They have been brilliant, and all the threads are still open! Our Autumn read is to be one of Charles Dickens's own favourites (18th century), then short Christmas reads, followed by a full length Dickens novel in the new year.
I've deliberately not put titles, so as not to divert the thread, but everything is on our bookshelves with dates, or mentioned in a planning thread.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Fiona - hop on over to our summer reads! We are exactly half way through, and about to start a new one - the 4th - tomorrow YAY! It's led by Sara :)They have been brilliant, and all the threads a..."
Thanks Jean.
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I was unable to divulge then what would happened to Martha in the story, but I love that Charles Dickens has attempted a sort of restitution for what he considered a failure, and also alerted the world to the plight of these women.
A small part of the story perhaps, but to me it illustrates how perfect Charles Dickens's summings up are. He has a destiny in mind for all the characters, including Emily's penitence (yes exactly, thanks Lori) and new beginnings - or just deserts - for everyone.
Sue - great that you have parts of John Forster's biography! Now you can join in our current side read :)
I enjoyed this buddy read immensely and am so happy to have jumped in with everyone here! Having the original read to be able to follow, for me was a game changer. I waited to read the last chapter today and just feel happy for David. Dickens wrapping up some of the smallest characters is such in his style, after reading Dombey with the group. I will expect this in future reads.
I have forster’s biography and admittedly have stalled with so many books to read. Hopefully I can read a little here and there.
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I'm really pleased that several have kept pace - or dipped into - the original group read thread. It will be helpful to have a solid base for our future observations - such as your comment that having read two novels with us, you now know how Charles Dickens wraps thing up - the sort of thing to expect stylistically.
In reading the last chapter, I wondered if Dickens would have liked this ending for his own life. Perhaps if Catherine had died young and he had married her sister or someone we know nothing about,his life would have been happier. But then what would have happened with his writing? Dickens certainly left no stone unturned and definitely expressed his disdain for the idle rich.
Having just finished the last chapter, I find myself very sad to let the story go. I imagine that’s how Dickens felt too. I’m sad to let all you go to. This has been a fabulous Buddy Read! Thank you to everyone for all your wonderful thoughts and insights. You added so much to my reading, taking me down roads of thought I never would have traveled.
I can see now why Jean picked this as the first Dickensian group read. I feel I know Dickens much better having read so much of his own history in this tale. Plus, it’s a delightful story, that is also complex and multi layered.
Now that I finished it, I find myself looking back at the first sentence of the novel and trying to answer whether or not David Copperfield is the hero of his own story. Thoughts anyone?
Sue, I love wondering about “what ifs” like that too! It’s so true that hardship sparks creativity.
I’m so glad I read this with all of you and with the Dickensians. I had no idea beforehand that this story related in any way to Dickens’s own life. All of the added information made the reading so much richer.And this was a great group to read with. I agree with Bridget completely.
Bridget - to answer your question, I struggle to see David as the hero. There certainly are heroes in the story - Dan and Ham, for example - and heroines - Aunt Betsey, Agnes - but David is too reticent in his actions to be a hero, for me anyway.I’m going to miss you all. Until the next buddy read………
As to the hero of the story, no, David is more the observer of his own life, sometimes it seemed even as he was living it. But then he is the narrator. Ham is a hero, but is he also somewhat suicidal having nothing left to live for? Dan does seem heroic in a quiet way, with his travels searching for Emily and departure for a new world to help her.David observes, assists, and is a positive force for the most part but doesn’t seem heroic.
Maybe we’ll have to form another buddy read at some point. This has just been too good!
So sad to have finished the read! I very much enjoyed reading with you all :)The last couple of chapters were a bit of an anticlimax but Dickens loves his summing up. Fiona, I had a laugh too that he brought back Julia Mills.
I agree about David not being heroic but he doesn’t talk about his work except to say he’s become more successful.
Sue/Bridget - I see from the Buddy Read Requests thread that you both were interested in Little Dorrit. I think you had already started reading it, Bridget, when we started DC. Let me know if you go ahead with this in the future, please. I’d love to join in.
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A Last Retrospect - Fred Barnard
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But this has coincidentally finished at exactly the right time! All our friends are still here, and discussing in other threads, especially LINK HERE, A Message from the Sea, our group read which has started today. I see you're on to it Janelle, YAY :)
I'd love to see you all there! Our group reads, as several of you know, have exactly the same feel as this buddy read - only more so, if you see what I mean! There are more friends commenting, and since there is a leader (for this one it's Sara, who is brilliant, as all our leaders have been this summer :)) there is a lot more info and comment you can read if you wish to. Most find this adds depth and interest. I think you would love it Fiona; I know Bridget, Lori, Janelle, Sue and Cozy_Pug have got a lot out of a "Dickensians!" group read, and made fantastic contributions to them :) (Cozy_Pug made a point of saying she hopes to be back for Bleak House, so my fingers are firmly crossed for her.)
So Fiona - and everyone - can I encourage you all please to try to join in with our next big Charles Dickens novel when it's a group read? All being well it will be Bleak House in the New Year. This is the one everyone voted for immediately after Little Dorrit, (as some will remember). But in many ways it has a similar feel to that novel, so we went with the runner-up instead: Dombey and Son. Quite a lot of our friends have been keen and waiting to read Bleak House with us :) Even if you know the novel, I can guarantee it's a different experience reading it alongside our lovely Dickensian friends, with all their different viewpoints and expertise.
We read the first three novels pretty much on the trot, but I found that it was really intensive, and Charles Dickens only wrote c. 13 novels (it depends how you count them!) so spacing them out with shorter reads in between is far better; hopefully for everyone (and my energy levels!)
And something to look forward to, yes? There are other little Dickensian treats happening all the time - side reads and so on.
Sorry to semi-divert this thread, but perhaps it will help. The buddy read discussion thread is separate, as you say, Fiona. We've only ever had 2 - and if you read a Dickens novel on your own, after our group read of it, you can always comment as you go, at the end of each thread. It's not quite the same, but you can go at your own speed, and get a response. Angela and others did this for her first one, and really enjoyed it.
I've really enjoyed following this buddy read with you all. In a way, David Copperfield is better to read first, as Bridget picked up, because it makes us understand Charles Dickens the man, better, being far and away the one with the most autobiographical content. This stands us in good stead for the other reads by him we join in. You've all made some great observations, and I've tried to add bits when I've had time. And I truly think you'll find you enjoy our group reads even more, if that's possible. We do things a bit differently here. It doesn't suit every group, but we like it :)
Thanks, Jean, for your encouragement. I will join in Bleak House in January but I think the particular pleasure of this buddy read, for me, has been the size of the group. I’m not so sure I will enjoy a mega group but I’m willing to try anything once!!
I definitely plan to read Bleak House with the group. I enjoyed our read of Dombey & Son which was my first group experience.Fiona, I would enjoy doing another buddy read of Little Dorrit if we can find a good time for it.
Janelle wrote: "So sad to have finished the read! I very much enjoyed reading with you all :)The last couple of chapters were a bit of an anticlimax but Dickens loves his summing up. Fiona, I had a laugh too that..."
I think we are all in agreement on David not being the hero of this story, because that's how I feel too.
I would add Traddles to the list of heroes. From the moment he stands up to Creakle at The Salem House, to the way he helps Micawber bring Uriah Heep down he is a good guy through and through.
Fiona wrote: "Sue/Bridget - I see from the Buddy Read Requests thread that you both were interested in Little Dorrit. I think you had already started reading it, Bridget, when we started DC. Let me know if you g..."I would love to read Little Dorrit with you! That way we will be caught up with the Dickensians. I need to wait until August 16th to start. Next week I'm taking some vacation time with my family, and I'm not sure I will have time at the computer everyday.
Is anyone else interested??
Bionic Jean wrote: "Finishing a book we've really enjoyed is always sad. For me, the characters can seem more "real" than those I meet in real life! For a while, I'm still in the world of the book - "David's world" in..."Thanks for helping us wrap this up Jean. I'm headed over to the A Message from the Sea today (after I read the first chapter ;-) I'm looking forward to the September read even more now that I've read about all the books David Copperfield had in his youth. And I'll be joining in for Bleak House as well.
Bridget and Fiona, I just double checked and Little Dorrit is over 1000 pages long so we will have to come up with a plan. This will take a while and I don’t believe I can read more than one chapter a day given my other commitments, especially over August and September.
Bridget, I agree about Traddles. The way he took on Heep was heroic, indeed.
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I know exactly what you mean about a smaller group of friends to read with Fiona, but oddly, our group reads don't actually feel "mega", even though so many join in with them! I think it's because on any one day you might get half a dozen commenting - and reacting - so the interactions feel the same, except that there is more of it! Then the next day you get a slightly different group, overlapping, and some comment every day. This is probably because we take things a day at a time, rather than reading a chunk each week or fortnight, for instance, as many groups do.
My two heroes from this novel are Tommy Traddles and Betsey Trotwood. But every single character has entertainment value :)
Fiona, I want to second what Jean has said. My first experience with this group was reading Dombey & Son. It never felt overwhelming as I was responding and reading others’ responses. And the width and depth of responses added so much just as it did here. I would recommend you give it a try.
Oh, definitely Betsey Trotwood is a hero! Traddles as well. I think David was a hero when he was a child and found his way to Betsey's because he had to pursue a way out of his dire situation on his own. But after that, I think he fell back and allowed everyone he came in contact with to make a mark on his life without doing any real brave or noble acts that could be looked at with admiration. His passivity doesn't lend itself to being a hero, in my opinion.
Though I don’t consider David a hero, and he does seem very passive, I’m thinking aloud here and wondering how much of that may be attributed to the fact that he is the narrator of the story and not one to toot his own horn. Certainly his marriage with Dora was a mistake which he recognized and, to his honor, he tried to do right by. (Unlike Dickens himself)He stuck by Traddles through thick and thin. And did what he felt was his duty to the memory of Steerforth in the end though it was obviously extremely unpleasant.
So I guess I’m of two minds about David after all!
I will definitely read Bleak House with the group. I appreciate all the encouragement you’re all giving me. It all sounds positive.Bridget/Sue - Little Dorrit will probably take 3 months at a chapter a day based on the length of time it took us to read DC. If either or both of you think of fitting this in before the end of the year, please let me know. If not, I’ll look forward to meeting everyone again in the New Year.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Do you remember how I said that Martha Endell was based on an actual prostitute, Isabella Gordon, whom Charles Dickens gave a home to at Urania Cottage, and hoped to be able to pay ..."No just deserts for the Murdstones. I kept waiting for that to happen.
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Perhaps (let's imagine their future) they would end up in the next cell along from Lattimer and Uriah Heep! After all, the metallic Jane Murdstone was well prepared for prison, always jangling the keys and rivets in her jewellery ;)
Fiona wrote: "I will definitely read Bleak House with the group. I appreciate all the encouragement you’re all giving me. It all sounds positive.Bridget/Sue - Little Dorrit will probably take 3 months at a cha..."
I am down for Little Dorrit!
Same for me, the Murdstones really deserved a nastier end! In many ways I think they were the most evil characters. They drove a young woman to death and were beyond cruel to a small child and then they’re free to move on to the next young woman. And he married for money! Makes me angry again thinking about it!I’d be happy to join for Little Dorrit. I read it in the 90s. I’m very much enjoying reading Dickens with a group. I love all the extras!
Looks like Fiona, Bridget, Angela, Janelle and I are interested in reading Little Dorrit. I have multiple books going on in August and September but I don’t want to miss out on the opportunity to read this. Perhaps the beginning of September? I’m afraid I can’t organize it/lead it with my other obligations. I do have the book on my kindle already 💕
Little Dorrit Buddy Read - Fantastic! Sue - we don’t want to put you under too much pressure. How about starting early or mid September and finishing by Christmas?
That sounds good. I do want to read it and this is a great group to read with. I have a long time habit of reading multiple books at one time and probably wouldn’t know myself anymore if I didn’t!
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Please LINK HERE to discuss this.
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Sorry I was out of the loop on commenting for about the past month. I had some family matters and things in my personal life to deal with and I was reading but it was so hard to get on and post anything. I did finish awhile back and was trying to keep up with some of the posts and enjoyed them and the comments. I ended up liking this novel, not as much as Bleak House or Little Dorrit, but I always enjoy reading Dickens. I really liked how Dickens finishes up his longer novels with subplots all being explained and concluding the novel with a sense of completion. He can tie so many things together seemlessly. I felt like he did this with this novel, and loved how he and Agnes got together (I felt like she was the one he was going to marry, all along). David was sympathetic and I definitely can see so many of the ties to Dickens' own life in this novel. As far as other supporting characters, I loved David's aunt and Traddles, as I felt like they gave the novel and plot an added dimension. I look forward to watching the Radcliff miniseries for the book now. Thanks for the discussion and the buddy read. I had been meaning to read this one for quite some time. :)
Franky, I’m looking forward to reading both of the favorite Dickens books you mention. This was my first read of DC and I really enjoyed it. The further I go from finishing, the more I treasure Aunt Betsey and Traddles too. I agree with you about them and their importance though it didn’t impress me strongly immediately.
Franky, I agree with you about Aunt Betsy and Traddles, they were two of my favorite characters. I just watched the miniseries and was so disappointed to discover they completely cut Traddles from the story. On the bright side Maggie Smith was a brilliant Aunt Betsey and Ian McKellen did an equally great job as Creakle.
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I feel this too; it's always very satisfying, and most of the characters get their just deserts. Even very minor characters, who have not been mentioned for many chapters, sometimes have an end to their story. And the two you pick out are both "salt of the Earth", in my view :)
Thanks for returning to post, Franky, and I do hope your difficulties are now resolved. Looking forward to seeing you participate in the rest of the group :)
Bridget wrote: "Franky, I agree with you about Aunt Betsy and Traddles, they were two of my favorite characters. I just watched the miniseries and was so disappointed to discover they completely cut Traddles from ..."I just finished watching the miniseries and loved Maggie Smith as Betsey. I have to say it was an abridged version from the book and they changed a few things but overall, it was very good. I am glad to have read the book first, as always!
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Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
John Forster (other topics)
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The fact that Peggotty felt he needed to come back to England one last time before he got too old really brought home to me how permanent emigration was at that time. Its so easy for us to jet about the world now, I forget the world wasn't always like that.
Fiona, I'm with you on Mr. Micawber...I was shocked (and happy) he turned things around for himself and his family.
Lori, yes that was lovely how Emily never married and just helped others. A very honest ending for her. Martha had a great ending too, especially because her new husband knows all about her past, so she doesn't have to hide anything.
Sue, i agree there is definitely an anticlimactic feeling in these last couple chapters. I wonder if Dickens had a hard time wrapping up the story because he liked David Copperfield so much he didn't want it to end. He said later on that this was his favorite of his novels.