Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Austen, Pride and Prejudice
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Week 4, Vol. II, XI – XIX (34 – 42)
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Kerstin wrote: ". . .and Elizabeth is alarmed at the inappropriateness of it all. "I wasn't quite sure of the level of innapropriateness to apply to the situation myself when I read this information given in chapter 42:
. . .[Lydia's] letters to Kitty, though rather longer, were much too full of lines under the words to be made public.How far in "reading between the lines" is the reader expected to go with that? I had to laugh in recognition of the meta lines-under-the-words situation the reader is forced into here.
I think “lines under words” means these are parts that are not to be shared, the reader may strike them out so that the letter could be shared more widely.https://janeaustensworld.com/2012/05/...
David wrote: "How far in "reading between the lines" is the reader expected to go with that? I had to laugh in recognition of the meta lines-under-the-words situation the reader is forced into here.I had to laugh myself. These two very silly girls underlining, making even more visible what is meant to be kept private.
Mike wrote: "I think “lines under words” means these are parts that are not to be shared, the reader may strike them out so that the letter could be shared more widely.."Ah, so it was more of a literal reading the words above lines than than inferring figurative meanings between them. I get it now, but I do not understand calling attention to the inappropriate stuff by underlining them, as Kerstin confirms. Maybe they should have marked the envelope, NSFW* (not suitable for the well-behaved). Thanks Mike.
Darcy writes to Elizabeth that:The situation of your mother's family, though objectionable, was nothing in comparison of that total want of propriety so frequently, so almost uniformly betrayed by herself, by your three younger sisters, and occasionally even by your father.
But honestly, that's just in-laws. And it's not like he or Bingley have exemplary family members. If Jane and Bingley end up together, they've already got a family of 5, since the Hursts prefer to sponge off Charles, and Caroline lives with him. So what can she look forward to? None of them read. If Mr Hurst can't kill something or gamble, he goes to sleep. Louisa and Caroline will make constant snide remarks about her family, she'll have to deal with Caroline's heartbreak over Darcy.
Darcy himself has less objectionable family members, but only because there are fewer of them. Elizabeth would still have the mandatory visits to Rosings, where Lady Catherine will want to micromanage her life. Colonel Fitzwilliam is just as much of a gold-digger as Wickham, and we don't get enough of him to see if his seeming niceness is just a facade. We haven't met Georgiana yet, but even though she tried to elope with someone last summer, Darcy left for Hertfordshire with Bingley in September and has spent the autumn, winter and spring trying to control his friend's love life rather than tending to his sister. So either he's a crappy brother or she's awful to live with.
Kerstin wrote: "Kitty feels dejected, and Elizabeth is alarmed at the inappropriateness of it all."This sentence may not have been as precisely formulated as I intended.
Elizabeth has gained new insights on how her family is perceived by others through Mr. Darcy's letter. Now she sees Lydia's leaving with the Fosters as another occasion that could further this negative perception.
"In vain did Elizabeth attempt to make her reasonable, and Jane to make her resigned. As for Elizabeth herself, this invitation was so far from exciting in her the same feelings as in her mother and Lydia, that she considered it as the death warrant of all possibility of common sense for the latter; and detestable as such a step must make her were it known, she could not help secretly advising her father not to let her go. She represented to him all the improprieties of Lydia's general behaviour, the little advantage she could derive from the friendship of such a woman as Mrs. Forster, and the probability of her being yet more imprudent with such a companion at Brighton, where the temptations must be greater than at home. He heard her attentively, and then said:The exchange goes on. I am not so sure I agree with Mr. Bennet here. Willful Lydia is still young enough to have her father decide what is best for her. She has no clue (or doesn't want to know) what kinds of trouble she can get into and he lets her go anyway.
"Lydia will never be easy until she has exposed herself in some public place or other, and we can never expect her to do it with so little expense or inconvenience to her family as under the present circumstances."
Kerstin wrote: "She has no clue (or doesn't want to know) what kinds of trouble she can get into and he lets her go anyway."What could go wrong for a young, single, and naive woman following a bunch of soldiers in an Army camp around the countryside? How sill she avoid the appearance of a fire ship.
I am trying out the underlining of inappropriate words. I suppose back then they did not appear as they do to us today as simply links to other web pages.
(view spoiler)
Chapter 42 describes the Bennet's marriage as less than ideal due to Mr. Bennet's poor choice of beauty in spite of what is called a weak understanding and an illiberal mind. Mr. Bennet's continued fidelity is acknowledged but instead of being praised it is tempered by his turning to the country, and books, and grasping the folly and ignorance of his wife by the handle of an amusement. The paragraph ends,This is not the sort of happiness which a man would in general wish to owe to his wife; but where other powers of entertainment are wanting, the true philosopher will derive benefit from such as are given.(view spoiler)(not a spoiler, but a brief side note)
In the next paragraph we find are told that Elizabeth feels she and her sisters are victims, of her parents unsuitable marriage, despite the affectionate treatment. Why? Do the sister's really have it so bad or is just the typical young adults blaming their drama on their parents?
In the next paragraph we find are told that Elizabeth feels she and her sisters are victims, of her parents unsuitable marriage, despite the affectionate treatment. Why? Do the sister's really have it so bad or is just the typical young adults blaming their drama on their parents? When she meets Lady Catherine, Elizabeth says they didn't even have a governess as children, nor did their father take them into London to study with masters. He didn't even bother to save money for them so he might give them more choices than 40 pounds a year will offer them if they can't find husbands. So basically he's left his daughters without the accomplishments or fortune that make them marriageable.
Jane and Elizabeth have natural virtues that make up for their poor start in life: they're both pretty and amiable and they like to read, but not so much that they are pedantic. But poor Mary, the middle child is at once too nerdy and too much of an attention-seeker. At one party, she eagerly takes over the piano and plays in an embarrassingly affected way. She says nothing of interest and she mostly wants to hang out in her room. Lydia and Kitty are out of control and their parents can't be bothered to rein them in.
However most parents and parental figures in Austen come in for a lot of skewering. I think the only parent who gets a really positive edit is Mrs Dashwood.
David wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "She has no clue (or doesn't want to know) what kinds of trouble she can get into and he lets her go anyway."What could go wrong for a young, single, and naive woman following a bu..."
Ah, I missed the 'Tristram' read. I'll have to remember the 'fire ship' term, lol.
David wrote: "Bonus Question, Is Mr. Bennet better for enduring his wife?"Yes. He made his peace with the situation, and they do have a harmonious and stable family life. That I give him credit for. Even if the marriage isn't ideal, the daughters grow up in a sheltered home.
David wrote: "In the next paragraph we find are told that Elizabeth feels she and her sisters are victims, of her parents unsuitable marriage, despite the affectionate treatment. Why? Do the sister's really have it so bad or is just the typical young adults blaming their drama on their parents?"Elizabeth is getting a better understanding of what was amiss. Obviously they had some education, and it probably sufficed for their future needs, reading, writing, arithmetic, music and dance lessons, needlework. It looks like no further tutoring was done once they had the basics to get them to the next level, to make them "accomplished." Simply having the use of their father's library lacks structure.
I wonder whose responsibility it usually was to educate the children, the mother's or the father's, both? If it was the mother's or if Mr. Bennet simply let her handle it, then we know why it wasn't done well. Mrs. Bennet is as silly and lacking in decorum as her younger daughters.
Kerstin wrote: "I wonder whose responsibility it usually was to educate the children, the mother's or the father's, both? ."I don't think we can blame Mrs. Bennet in this case for the lack of education of her younger daughters. How can she be blamed when she hasn't had a proper education herself? Her education consists of gossiping, prattling nonsensically, and keeping an eye out for eligible bachelors as suitable mates for her daughters.
She is intent on securing financial stability for her daughters. I give her credit for showing concern about their future. The only way she knows how to do that is to encourage them to flaunt themselves in front of eligible bachelors. In one sense, she is correct. An educated woman was not guaranteed financial security. In fact, some would-be suitors might get thoroughly turned off by an intelligent, educated woman.
I blame Mr. Bennet for the way his younger daughters turn out. Unlike Mrs. Bennet, he is educated and knows better than to encourage them to be the flighty flibbertigibbets they are. He may have taken an active role in the education of Jane and Elizabeth. Or, it may be they had an aptitude and developed it with little guidance. Either way, I see Mr. Bennet as abdicating his responsibility toward his daughters. I see him as showing little concern about their financial security. He has left it entirely in the hands of his wife who tries to help them in the only way she knows how--by doing whatever it takes to secure husbands for them.
I blame Mr. Bennet for the way his younger daughters turn out. Unlike Mrs. Bennet, he is educated I don't know. Mr Collins is his cousin, meaning their fathers were brothers. However, Mr Collins' father is described as illiterate. If your younger son can't read, how good can your older son's education be, really? The literacy rate then is hard to estimate, between 30 and 60 percent for men, but presumably nearly universal in the upper classes.
I think in general, the boys' education was the responsibility of the father after they left the family schoolroom, and the girls' education was up to the mother. At least that's how it is in other Austen works.
Jen wrote: "If your younger son can't read, how good can your older son's education be, really?.."Actually, the older son's education can be quite good because the older son was always given priority.
We know Mr. Bennet has a library. It's his sanctuary. He likes to spend his time there to get away from his family and to read. So, unlike his wife, he reads, which means he is better equipped to rein in his younger daughters. Even Elizabeth feels he is culpable:
Her father, contented with laughing at them, would never exert himself to restrain the wild giddiness of his youngest daughters . . .
Alas, Mr. Bennet was my favorite character until Elizabeth expressed her concerns about his "behaviour as a husband. She had always seen it with pain..." That word "pain" set me straight. I was just enjoying the comedy, but we aren't, apparently, meant to take Mr. Bennet's retreat into his study and flippant comments lightly. [Sigh.]But, David, your underlining made me laugh: I am trying out the underlining of inappropriate words. I suppose back then they did not appear as they do to us today as simply links to other web pages.
Jen wrote: "But honestly, that's just in-laws. And it's not like he or Bingley have exemplary family members."Go get 'em, Jen! I'm less willing to forgive Darcy for his rude assessment of her family than Elizabeth is beginning to seem to be. I mean, I know where this is headed, but I am not on board yet. I suppose I shouldn't be, on page 232 of 367. Where would be the fun in that?
Tamara wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "I wonder whose responsibility it usually was to educate the children, the mother's or the father's, both? ."I don't think we can blame Mrs. Bennet in this case for the lack of edu..."
All good points Tamara!
I continue to be intrigued at comparing familial dysfunction here in P&P with what might be considered relatively parallel familial dysfunction in Demons, if it is fair to consider parallels/points of comparison as existing between these two reads. I am reminded of Tolstoy's (in)famous: “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way”
Jen wrote: "Mr Collins is his cousin, meaning their fathers were brothers. However, Mr Collins'..."I don't think they are first cousins, the term is "distant relation" in chapter 7. They are probably in the tier of second cousins, sharing a grandparent or even a grandparents' sibling. This also would make it more probable that they don't know one another.
Tamara wrote: ".I blame Mr. Bennet for the way his younger daughters turn out. Unlike Mrs. Bennet, he is educated and knows better than to encourage them to be the flighty flibbertigibbets they are."According to Lady Catherine, we have a sort of gender segregation within the family, so the father should not play an important role in his daughter's education:
“Oh! your father of course may spare you if your mother can. Daughters are never of so much consequence to a father.
He's way too passive, but maybe we're judging Mr Bennet using 21st century standards?
Do you think Elizabeth made the right decision in refusing Mr. Darcy's proposal?
Kerstin wrote: "Jen wrote: "Mr Collins is his cousin, meaning their fathers were brothers. However, Mr Collins'..."I don't think they are first cousins, the term is "distant relation" in chapter 7. They are prob..."
Mr Bennet and Mr Collins haven't met because Mr Bennet quarreled with Mr Collins Senior. Cousin and distant relation seem to be very broad terms in Jane Austen. All we can determine is that they were close enough to know each other and hold a grudge for over 20 years. This is yet another way that Mr Bennet has been a neglectful father. It must have been obvious for quite some time that Lydia was the last Bennet child, and Mr Collins is correct that the sensible thing to do would have been to marry one of his cousins. Had Mr Bennet reached out to him 10 years ago, perhaps he wouldn't be such an ass today.
Tamara wrote: "Jen wrote: "If your younger son can't read, how good can your older son's education be, really?.."Actually, the older son's education can be quite good because the older son was always given prio..."
Okay, but to be such a neglectful parent that you either don't care or don't notice that your second son can't read? Until the 20th century, around 46% of children died before they reached adulthood. Yes that would have been a bit lower among the upper classes, but you wouldn't put all your eggs in one basket and assume your oldest son is going to survive into adulthood so no point ensuring literacy in your other kids.
Colonel Fitzwilliam is a more typical example of what happened to younger sons: they became clergy or joined the military as officers. In both cases, you needed to be literate. Jane Austen is also littered with second sons doing both.
Kerstin wrote: "Do you think Elizabeth made the right decision in refusing Mr. Darcy's proposal?"Yes. Elizabeth clearly states her reasons; responding appropriately based on what little direct observations she has of him and the rest of what she thinks is the best available information, at the time.
Plus, the question is not if, but how many red flags need to be raised over a guy who rings a girl's doorbell late in the evening, paces around in an agitated manner, forces out a surprise marriage proposal, and offers the fact that he loves her despite her degrading inferiority relative to himself as proof of his overwhelming strong feelings for her?
Jen wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Jen wrote: "Mr Collins is his cousin, meaning their fathers were brothers. However, Mr Collins'..."I don't think they are first cousins, the term is "distant relation" in chapter ..."
Then why do they have two different last names? If Mr. Bennet's father's brother, his uncle Bennet, is the father of Mr. Collins, shouldn't he be another Bennet?
Last names could get complicated in eighteenth and early nineteenth-century England.Leaving aside outright changes of name -- which was thought a bizarre American practice by British travelers -- it was not unknown for someone to be required to adopt a new last name, or to hyphenate it, as a condition of an inheritance from a more distant relation; or for marrying an heiress.
The marriage-related requirement at least once the provided the plot of a novel, if I recall my reading on the subject correctly.
Either of which would explain the change of name in one branch of the family, despite the male lineage.
This happened in Jane Austen's own family (see the Austen-Leigh branch).
Contemporary readers might have filled in the gap for themselves, if not from their circle of acquaintances, than from general knowledge.
Jane Austen might once have made it explicit: we should remember that "Pride and Prejudice" was not only revised, but cut down, from her earlier "First Impressions" (which no publisher wanted to see). How much background explanation was discarded is anyone's guess.
(I have sometimes speculated that the original break between Mr. Bennett and the elder Mr. Collins was based on such a change of name, which was not always regarded with favor by other relations.)
Kerstin wrote: Then why do they have two different last names? If Mr. Bennet's father's brother, his uncle Bennet, is the father of Mr. Collins, shouldn't he be another Bennet? Austen doesn't explain it, but remember that in Emma Frank Churchill was originally Frank Weston and changed his name because his mother's family became his benefactors. This super-strict entail is only supposed to go down the male line, so whether it was the grandfather, the great-grandfather, or the great-great grandfather who set it up, they should all be called Bennets. It seems that in a culture that didn't have as much documentation as ours, names were also more fluid.
I read chapter 39 last night, where Lydia and Kitty come in the Bennet coach to meet their sisters and Maria Lucas. It's such a typical teenage scene! They meant to buy them lunch, but spent all their money at the hat store not because they liked the hats, but because they wanted more boxes; when they get back to the carriage, there's barely room to fit all the luggage, let alone the shopping; all they want to talk about is where there will be the maximum number of boys on vacation. I also like how the Bennets have an actual sisterly relationship. Lizzie is often mortified by her family's antics, but she's not above ripping on Lydia's ugly hat.
What is going on with this bit of superstitious nonsense?"But it is fortunate," thought she, "that I have something to wish for. Were the whole arrangement complete, my disappointment would be certain. But here, by carrying with me one ceaseless source of regret in my sister's absence, I may reasonably hope to have all my expectations of pleasure realised. A scheme of which every part promises delight can never be successful; and general disappointment is only warded off by the defence of some little peculiar vexation."Is this a joke? Is the intention of revealing these thoughts meant demonstrate Elizabeth's wanting to be hopeful or overly so even perhaps desperately so. Or is Elizabeth just being set up for the disappointment a few paragraphs later when the trip to the Lakes is revised to not include the Lakes?
David wrote: "What is going on with this bit of superstitious nonsense?"But it is fortunate," thought she, "that I have something to wish for. Were the whole arrangement complete, my disappointment would be c..."
I was a bit puzzled by this bit, too. However, in reflection of her latest disenchantment of the people around her (Charlotte, Wickham, even her loving family and herself), I think she was building up her preemtive defense against general disappointments in her life and becoming a somewhat cynical Eeyore. However, from her view toward SOME partial fulfillment of hope, we see the flip side of pessimism, which is actually lingering optimism with more practical risk evaluation. As she goes physically farther away from her own home, her mind and her regard of humanity/life seems to be moving away from regarding from the center of only herself and her close family to looking at them and herself from other people's point of view (such as Darcy and lady Catherine).
It sort of reminds me of a girl who was popular and center of attention at her local highschool and then realizes her own insignificance after going to college or abroad.
This contrasts with the ever hopeful Mrs. Bennet:
her mother, though often disheartened, had never yet despaired of succeeding at last.
It's also interesting how Mr. Darcy's voice is now read through his own words in the letter form. I know that some introverts are more comfortable with expressing themselves in written words than through the relatively awkward oral form. Has Elizabeth been misreading his words? Are we, too, looking at Darcy through the eyes of Elizabeth or hearing his words through her mind?I noticed how at different times the letters of Mr. Collins, Jane, Miss Bingley, Darcy and Lydia is received by Elizabeth. For example, the letter from Mr. Collins is perceived differently by Mr. and Mrs. Bennet, Mary, and Elizabeth. Pride and Prejudice was originally an epistolary novel. Could the lines under the words reflect how different interpretation (or omission) may be in the eye of the beholder(or reader)?
I was amused by how Elizabeth, on listening to Lydia's remark on Miss King as 'such a nasty little freckled thing', reflect on her own inner feelings:Elizabeth was shocked to think that, however incapable of such coarseness of EXPRESSION herself, the coarseness of the SENTIMENT was little other than her own breast had formerly harboured and fancied liberal!
We all prefer and tend to think of ourselves free from any coarse sentiment and prejudice, but are roughly shaken when we find the coarseness we found so natural in others reflected in our ownselves, but only with less exression.
A true 'know-thyself' moment for Elizabeth, as if she was exposed by some Borat movie. It only takes the most blatantly coarse brute to bring out the same brute in one's own self.
Borum wrote: ",,,It only takes the most blatantly coarse brute to bring out the same brute in one's own self. .."Well, the self recognition may not always be quite so forth coming, but I think you do hit on one of the examples where P&P is such a tight little essay on prejudice -- how it arises (in Elizabeth, by her initial sense of being insulted by Darcey?), why and when it intensifies, how one incident seems to lead to another, .... Misunderstanding, lack of familiarity with the culture and values of the other; separations caused by laws, relative wealth, family, values, and types of social interactions, ....
I am fascinated by what I sometimes consider labeling as "prejudices" the various judgements we as readers keep placing on Jane's characters, even as we sometimes surface the "prides" that oft alternatively make them admirable or troublesome. And when does pride become prejudice, and vice versa?
David wrote: "What Socrates did say about his marriage to Xanthippe was..."David, that's AWESOME. I've never read that before XD
David wrote: "Is this a joke? Is the intention of revealing these thoughts meant demonstrate Elizabeth's wanting to be hopeful or overly so even perhaps desperately so. "I think she's just being her usual humorous self -- thinking that it doesn't do to get your hopes up too high as you're sure to be disappointed because nothing is ever perfect.
As to the lines under the words, I always assumed that they mean exactly what they would in any other written work (emphasis) and that it reflects Lydia's excitable nature and tendency to (over)dramatize everything.
I think the reason Lydia underlines so many words is that she's telling Kitty she can't share that part of the letter even with the family. In Austen's world, they definitely take confidences to heart and it's dishonourable to share anyone's secrets. Hence Elizabeth considers telling people what she knows about Wickham, but is ultimately convinced not to by Jane, even when she feels it would be really helpful if her father knew his true nature. Lydia's letters to her mother are about shopping and which officers accompany her where. She's not exactly secretive. So clearly she's writing about more emotional subjects or plans even she knows will upset her family.
…so, off to Pemberly we go… but seriously didn’t y’all want to slap her for giving Mr. Darcy the ‘upbraiding’ she gave him as well as declining his proposal…man I was ready to write Jane Austen about her story line…I was distraught….
Both Elizabeth and Jane return home, and Elizabeth confides in her as soon as a suitable moment arises.
The Militia is to leave Meryton for Brighton. The impending departure results in much gloomy drama by Lydia, Kitty, and Mrs. Bennet. Lydia had befriended a young officer’s wife, Mrs. Foster, and she extends an invitation to her to accompany them to Brighton. Kitty feels dejected, and Elizabeth is alarmed at the inappropriateness of it all. She talks to her father, but to no avail.
Elizabeth’s summer trip with the Gardiner’s is fast approaching, though because of unforeseen time restrictions a shorter tour is now planned as initially envisioned. Their sightseeing has brought them to Derbyshire and they are about to visit Mr. Darcy’s Pemberly.