Horror Aficionados discussion
Off Topic
>
Using public figures / pop culture references in fiction
I think one should write for the here and now and not worry about fifteen+ years into the future. People still enjoy movies about the future that have titles with dates long past. And in my library there are shelves of a once popular author of her day that now just sit in the stacks because her big group of readers have died off; but her books were enjoyed at that specific time in history. I would make the Ellen reference but be vague about it. I wouldn't be put off if I read an older book and it made a reference to Johnny Carson. However, some teen may read the same book and not know who he is, but he/she understands the world of talk shows.
Here is a wise quote from my favorite horror writer:
“I am a commercial writer and I'm proud of that. I am writing things to be put in the bookstore next month. I think it is a mistake to try to write for the ages.”
― Michael McDowell
Tressa well played. :) I love the quote!I have run into instances where it feels like someone is trying too hard to reach a certain generation and when that generation isn't mine it is slightly (and sometimes tremendously) off putting because it interrupts the flow. It can take away from the enjoyment of the story for me. However, when the references are subtle enough or broad enough that it doesn't detract from the story it is nice to be able to get the atmosphere of the time period being written about. It's like with anything a writer wants to throw in to jazz up the writing - unless it's really important to telling the story it should not be the focus. Case and point period pieces / historical novels that spend too much time describing what is seen on and around the characters and too little time spent building the characters. I can people watch in real life. When I read I want the inside scoop of what is happening that I would not otherwise know through another medium. The fly on the wall and in your head view so to speak.
I think to make the book more real and more authentic it's good to use actual shows or people. However as Tressa said, keep it brief and don't worry about the later but the now. In my upcoming book that's set in the 20s I make a reference to John D Rockefeller and Henry Ford and they are still widely known today so I think it does your book some justice by throwing in some names.
Michael McDowell was genius that way. :-)Stephen King is king of dropping pop references into his books, but the hordes of new generations of readers don't mind if they're outdated.
Mod
Ah to be one of the greats who is remembered forever. Even better if it is for a good reason versus being a terrible monster. That's why monsters can be so scary, humans can let their emotions turn them into monsters. Sure they might not crawl out from under the bed or from the closet. But they could be next to you in traffic, on a bus, in the library, or at your dinner table. ((Shudders))
I am having this trouble in my writing, too! I want to have my character listen to Christian talk radio. Do I name names, like Dr. Charles Stanley? Can I put words in his mouth? Is that legal?
Mod
The media whores, like today's celebrities, may be remembered, but they aren't worth the mental space they occupy in the group consciousness.
I love pop-culture references in books. It can humanize a whole story in the simplest way by allowing me to feel like I maybe have something in common with a character.I feel the same way about stories that take place in a location I am familiar with. Even if a story isn't the greatest, I'll stick with it because there is a commonality between my life and the fiction I am reading.
Mod
Culture references are fine. House of Leaves makes excellent use of them.
The "pop" part is what I have a problem with.
About a Boy centers around the nineties and Curt Cobain (or "Kirk O'bain" as Marcus thinks they're saying), but I think this book will be enjoyed and connect with readers for decades to come. Maybe in 50 or 100 years it'll be stuck as a stacks copy in a library's non-public area, but for now it's safe.
I don't like it, it categorizes that book (at least for me) into the hipster genre and ugh, I want none of that.
Mod
Hell, hipsters don't even read.....
I thought Nirvana was grunge, not hipster. However, for me the Nirvana thing was just a minor plot that served to show how out-of-touch the geeky kid was compared to his peers, and I really enjoyed the budding relationship between Will and Marcus. Every story resonates differently.
I wasn't getting into your conversation Jon and Tressa, I was just saying how i felt about pop culture references. I don't like them, I cringe when an author does that. not my thing.Nirvana, hipster? *gasp* that's blasphemy! :) I wasn't calling them hipster, they're the kings of grunge, do not argue with me on that because on that issue there is no debate. :D
I dislike the use of pop culture references, of any kind. that's all. product placements though THAT is like the worst! one of the reasons I hated "American psycho" so much! :P
Hipsters walk around with an esoteric book in public wanting you to think they read.
Mod
That's the key, right there.
Reference points in a story, not product placement to be trendy.
Delmy, you are welcome to get into our conversation. I thought you were commenting on About a Boy. I was wondering why I knew Nirvan's genre and not someone so much younger didn't. :-)I guess I have enjoyed enough books with and without cultural/pop references that it's not a big deal to me. Didn't Stephen King dress one of his 'Salem's Lot baby vampires in Dr. Denton PJs? That one detail makes it all the more chilling, IMO.
ha! see I'm so not a brands girl, I didn't even know who Dr. Denton was, I'm like why is he lending his PJs? I had to look it up! :P
Mod
Dr. Dentons are more timely than what was on the radio at the time.
Mod
I have to look up pop stars and movie references.
Not sure how popular or known Dr. Dentons are these days. I can't imagine dressing my kid in those things. Maybe they're more popular in colder climates.
Mod
My sisters and I wore them, growing up.
They fell out of vogue for kids because they outgrow the leg length pretty fast.
I had a pair with the feet cut off.
Footie pajamas are still around for adults.
The thought of being encased in a onesie with feet just makes me want to hyperventilate from the claustrophobia!
I can't lie I love knowing a book is written about or around somewhere I've been. It adds an added interest factor.I hate when audio book readers completely massacre the way to say street names, cities or towns (and names, but that is another subject all together).
However it's really subjective what is the "right way" to say those things. Basically it tips off locals that the person talking "ain't from round these parts." :)
Tressa wrote: "I think one should write for the here and now and not worry about fifteen+ years into the future. People still enjoy movies about the future that have titles with dates long past. And in my library..."I love Michael McDowell! That is all. :)
K4tie wrote: "I can't lie I love knowing a book is written about or around somewhere I've been. It adds an added interest factor.I hate when audio book readers completely massacre the way to say street names, ..."
There are a lot of mispronounced locations in my neck of the woods. Ypsilanti (ip-see-lan-tee), Gratiot (gra-shut), Charlevoix (shar-lee-voy), Schoenner (shay-ner). The list goes on and on.
Jon Recluse wrote: "You can have cultural references without being hipster.Hell, hipsters don't even read....."
Nirvana were more than hipsters or grunge. They changed the face of rock n roll.
Last comment on other comments, I love when I am familiar with a town or location in a book. Part of Stephen King's Big Driver was set in the nearby town of Chicopee. They kept it in Chicopee in the Lifetime movie too. Well, they called it Chicopee and then showed a picture of a much nicer town. :)I don't mind pop culture references in books at all. The only time I have trouble with them is when the author is from the UK. I'm familiar with boots instead of trunks on cars, but some of the other things sometimes referenced just leave me scratching my head.
Charlene wrote: "Jon Recluse wrote: "You can have cultural references without being hipster.Hell, hipsters don't even read....."
Nirvana were more than hipsters or grunge. They changed the face of rock n roll."
well, obviously and i never called them hipsters, no one did.
Charlene wrote: "Last comment on other comments, I love when I am familiar with a town or location in a book. Part of Stephen King's Big Driver was set in the nearby town of Chicopee. They kept it in Chicopee in th..."i think locations is one thing but product placements drive me mental! :) and not in a good way! :D
Delmy =^.^= wrote: "Charlene wrote: "Jon Recluse wrote: "You can have cultural references without being hipster.Hell, hipsters don't even read....."
Nirvana were more than hipsters or grunge. They changed the face ..."
I was mostly speaking to Tressa and Jon, Delmy. We go back a ways. :)
Charlene wrote: "Delmy =^.^= wrote: "Charlene wrote: "Jon Recluse wrote: "You can have cultural references without being hipster.Hell, hipsters don't even read....."
Nirvana were more than hipsters or grunge. T..."
fair enough.
Thanks for the comments thus far, everyone!The point that Tressa and others have made about writing for "now" and not worrying about longevity is a good one, of course, but I might have given the impression that I'm more concerned about that than I really am. I just wasn't necessarily planning to specify when the story was taking place -- there would be obvious clues that it was a "modern-era" story, such as the prevalence of smart phones and social media, but I hadn't really thought yet about doing anything to indicate that "modern-era" means 2015. I could. I'm not opposed to it. I just hadn't really considered it yet.
My bigger concern is just about how to handle a fictional talk show appearance on a real talk show without crossing that line I talked about earlier. I don't really care which talk show the character goes on (as long as it's a sufficiently well-known one in context), but I'm going to want to describe what happens during the appearance, and that means I'm going to have to write about things like the questions the host asks the character during their interview. As I see it, I have a few options:
- make up a talk show and a host and establish that both are extremely popular and well known;
- specify a real talk show, such as The Today Show, but not the host(s) of that talk show;
- specify a real talk show and use the real host of that talk show.
The first option would be fine with me, but this happens early in the story, so my main concern then would be that establishing that appearing on this talk show is a really big deal would require too much info-dumping.
The second option would also be fine with me, and seems like the safest option, but my main concern then would be keeping the narrative from sounding awkward with clunky descriptions like "the host asked..." and "he answered the host..." (or whatever) instead of just coming right out and naming the host.
The third option would certainly be the easiest option, and I would obviously be fine with that, but is it okay to actually put words in the host's mouth? I obviously wouldn't have them say anything controversial, and I would try to properly capture their real voice, but that still seems like pretty dangerous territory to me. Maybe it's not, and I'm just worrying too much about it, but there's a difference between just saying a character appeared on The Today Show and delving into the actual exchange that took place between that character and Matt Lauer during their interview. Even if I just make Matt stick to asking questions instead of sharing any candid moments with the character (such as making a joke in response to an answer or doing any of the other common things that make such an appearance seem more like a casual conversation than a stiff question-answer-next-question session), I'm still ultimately putting words -- of one sort or another -- in his mouth.
I have a question,I know its ok to use the name of a TV show or a show like you mentioned but I don't know if you can use the actual host and like you said put words in their mouth. Of course,i don't know if there is anyone actually policing this, so i don't know, I'd be curious to find out.For my two cents, i like it when an author makes up their own fictional TV show and personality. To me, it shows creativity and ingenuity BUT this is just me. So i definitely like option one.
Delmy =^.^= wrote: "For my two cents, i like it when an author makes up their own fictional TV show and personality. To me, it shows creativity and ingenuity BUT this is just me. So i definitely like option one. ..."
I agree. I know this isn't a great example, but I love the flamboyant host of The Hunger Games show. Just trying to make a point that you have a clean slate if you make up your own; the sky's the limit.
I also like when a writer is good enough to make me understand that his made up host of a made up show is as popular as our own real shows. The movie with Jerry Lewis and Robert DeNiro called King of Comedy makes you so aware that the Jerry Lewis character is as big with the TV viewing audience as Johnny Carson was during the same time period. So you understand the DeNiro's desperation at kick starting his career trying to get on his show.
Tressa wrote: "Delmy =^.^= wrote: "For my two cents, i like it when an author makes up their own fictional TV show and personality. To me, it shows creativity and ingenuity BUT this is just me. So i definitely l..."Stanley Tucci is great in that role in The Hunger Games.
He is. I love every moment he's on the screen.
Tressa wrote: "He is. I love every moment he's on the screen."Stanley Tucci is fantastic,he really could be a talk show host! I'd watch that show! :)
Mod
He turns every sinner near him into a minor demon when he gives God the finger......
Jon - wish you had made that a link... Want to read it!!
Mod
You can find it here:
The Skin Trade
Prayers to Broken Stones
Tressa wrote: "I know this isn't a great example, but I love the flamboyant host of The Hunger Games show. Just trying to make a point that you have a clean slate if you make up your own; the sky's the limit."That's basically what I have in mind, as far as description goes -- I plan to write about the whole experience, from before the character goes onstage to the actual interview and even audience reactions and what happens afterward. That's why it will be hard not to name a host and put words in that host's mouth.
As I said before, I was concerned about having to do too much info-dumping to establish a fictional show's popularity, since this is likely going to happen right at the very beginning of the story. If it were happening somewhere later in the story, I could see how I could sprinkle in some seemingly minor details here and there about the show before anyone ever realizes the character will eventually be appearing on it, so that when he does, it will be obvious that it's a big deal. But I'm thinking this might be the way I open the story, so that won't be possible. However, I guess I could get this point across quickly and easily through dialogue -- even just a brief exchange between the character and one of the producers backstage would probably be sufficient:
"Nervous?"
"You could say that."
"Don't be. We're only the second most popular syndicated show in the world."
"That's...comforting."
Or something similar, like an exchange afterward about how many views a clip of the interview has received in a relatively short amount of time.
Mikebfd wrote: "Tressa wrote: "I know this isn't a great example, but I love the flamboyant host of The Hunger Games show. Just trying to make a point that you have a clean slate if you make up your own; the sky'..."I like the first part, is the second part really necessary, is it important that we know how popular this show is? this explains it enough:
"Don't be. We're only the second most popular syndicated show in the world."
or you could add:
"Just behind Fallon with about 2.5 million viewers."
Mikebfd wrote: ""Nervous?""You could say that."
"Don't be. We're only the second most popular syndicated show in the world."
"That's...comforting."..."
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Very good. Little drops like this throughout a story make it seem like it's real life and it's a real show. It can be woven into the story in an unforced way.
Horror Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
The Skin Trade (other topics)Prayers to Broken Stones (other topics)
About a Boy (other topics)
House of Leaves (other topics)
How does everyone feel about using public figures in fiction or making references to well-known, modern-day television shows? Just for the sake of clarity, let's use Ellen DeGeneres and her talk show as examples, although this could apply to other examples, as well. Obviously, I'm not talking about making Ellen a character in a story or writing anything about her specifically, but where should the line be drawn? I know it's okay to acknowledge that such people exist -- I've certainly seen plenty of references to famous people in fiction in the past -- but it's clearly something one needs to be careful with.
I'm planning a story now that would involve a character going on a talk show. I think it would be okay to specify that the talk show was The Ellen DeGeneres Show (or whatever -- I'm not really tied to that, it's just the example I'm sticking to). Actually getting into details about the interview, especially to the point of putting words in Ellen's mouth, seems like more dangerous territory (even if they're words she is known for saying). There's also the issue of making the work feel unnecessarily dated in the future -- after all, Ellen's show won't always be on the air, so inserting it into a novel written in 2015 would make it feel, in 2030, like a novel written in 2015, when it might not feel that way otherwise.
On the other hand, if the story is meant to be taking place in the "real" world -- our world -- and a character is being featured on talk shows, I'm concerned that leaving out the details would seem weird, possibly to the point of taking a reader out of the story. Saying a character went on The Ellen DeGeneres Show is, after all, much easier than saying a character went on some unnamed (or made-up) talk show that's extremely popular and garnered the character an insane level of worldwide exposure, and then there's the whole "show, don't tell" adage. Using a talk show with more longevity -- perhaps The Today Show, for instance, where hosts can more easily be replaced as time goes on -- seems like a nice middle ground, but there's still the matter of whether to describe the host(s) or anything about the interview itself (and I do want to describe at least the latter, because what happens during the appearance is important).
Anyway, I know there are some writers in this group, so I figured it would be a good place to find out what the general consensus is on this matter. Of course, I'd welcome thoughts from anyone, not just writers.