Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
Author Resource Round Table
>
Questions about editor notes
date
newest »
newest »
Way back when I was first learning to write fiction I wrote the usual Truly Awful Crap and submitted it proudly to magazines for publication. I was pretty certain that each one of those short stories was a masterpiece, and that the editors rejected them all because they didn't know talent when they saw it. Of course, I never told them that, I just kept writing bad stories and sending them out. I'd always get them back with a form letter.
But I did begin to improve. Finally, even though they rejected the stories, the editors occasionally scribbled encouraging comments in the margins of those letters. The first one was, "Not bad, try us again with something else." I never forgot it. Eventually they did begin to buy my stories and publish them. Throughout it all I never got a mean or discouraging comment. You hear a lot of bad things about editors, or gatekeepers, as they are sometimes called; but they were much nicer to me than I deserved.
But I did begin to improve. Finally, even though they rejected the stories, the editors occasionally scribbled encouraging comments in the margins of those letters. The first one was, "Not bad, try us again with something else." I never forgot it. Eventually they did begin to buy my stories and publish them. Throughout it all I never got a mean or discouraging comment. You hear a lot of bad things about editors, or gatekeepers, as they are sometimes called; but they were much nicer to me than I deserved.
Ken wrote: "Way back when I was first learning to write fiction I wrote the usual Truly Awful Crap and submitted it proudly to magazines for publication. I was pretty certain that each one of those short stor..."I wrote the truly awful crap.. :D same here.. the first time when you write.. its your masterpiece.. but for others.. its the worst piece of literature ever..
I think the humor part should be yours.. no matter how much criticism you face.. it should be your call on the humor and the story.. the other parts should be dealt as per the situation.. :)
Every editor isn't going to be a good fit for every writer. As has been said, editors have opinions, too, and they don't always agree with the vision the author has for their work. I have 'fired' a few editors because of this, one very recently in fact. I sent her the summaries for my books. Very simple. Should have come back with maybe 10-15 red marks at most. This isn't my first go, so I know about what to expect. Instead, I receive a completely rewritten summary. She'd removed and rewrote entire sentences so that they no longer sounded like my voice. I promptly told her this wasn't expectable and she re-edited the summaries for me without the extra commentary. Needless to say, I will not use her again and have now found an editor I enjoy working with and who leaves her non editing opinions at the door. In my opinion, your friend needs to find another editor.
I have seen too many editors, especially volunteers, who really have no idea what they are doing. They make changes to adjust the writing to reflect their own style. I read this article about editing and copied this excerpt for future reference:"Any editing method resulting in re-writes, rather than error corrections, is improper and not to be considered appropriate. Changes to restructure a sentence or paragraph can cause the pace and mood of the piece to change substantially. Style differences between writers are normal. How a writer structures sentences and paragraphs, and how they use simple punctuation, are all part of their personal writing style.
An edit should NEVER include overriding the voice or style of the writer. The edit should include corrections and overall comments should be noted separately (relating to plot, characters, POV, tone, pacing, dialogue, imagery, etc.).
Notations and re-writes that attack a writer’s individual style are very harsh criticism, and will cause many writers, justifiably, to be quite insulted and angry, rendering the edit in question, useless."
Yet, sometimes a writer's style HAS to be changed. For instance, if a writer habitually writes passive sentences with weak verbs, it's the job of a copy editor to at least TRY to get him/her to change that style. If the author REFUSES to change style, then we do the best we can and hope our name doesn't get associated with the finished product.I had an author at my old job that wrote dialog in very correct English. He grew up in a rare, small, Pacific NW community where everyone spoke that way and his "ear" was used to it. I tried to get him to change the "voice" of a few supporting characters, but he insisted on sticking to what he was used to. Needless to say, the book sold only a few copies and then died. Once in a blue moon, it will sell another copy, but that's it.
I have several editors, starting with a development editor. They read at the 30K foot level for story. I've changed significant things in my books as a result of this level of editing, unless the dev editor has completely missed my point and/or direction. (That's only happened once.) I typically accept between 50-75% of these edits.My primary beta reader reads for story - I don't want her in the weeds (sentence structure, typos, etc.) because I want her reaction to the plot and characters. This is more or less a "marketing" edit to determine if the story itself will sell/be of interest to the typical reader.
Then there's a content editor - now into the weeds on facts, grammar, structure, dialog, etc. Very helpful, and I accept nearly 90% of such edits.
Lastly, there's a proof edit and those I typically accept at a rate of 100% unless I've done something intentional (with story bearing) that does not conform.
During the publishing process, included among those assigned to help convert my manuscript into a commercially viable book, were a copy editor, conceptual (developmental) editor, and a layout design artist.The copy editor sought out and corrected technical writing errors. The conceptual editor targeted specific sentences, dialogue, and descriptive narration that he felt could be improved or eliminated altogether. It was entirely up to me which advice to heed and which to ignore. For the record, 76 suggestions were accepted and acted upon and 9 were respectfully declined. The layout design artist created the final physical presentation format for production. A prototype copy of the book was provided for a final review and sign-off by me before production could proceed.
The process produced a 111,000 word book in which the story flowed more smoothly and effectively than in the 126,000 word original manuscript.
Christine wrote: "I have seen too many editors, especially volunteers, who really have no idea what they are doing. They make changes to adjust the writing to reflect their own style. I read this article about editi..."I found this answer particularly interesting, though that doesn't mean the others didn't contain good points.
I've had two experiences of professional editing. One was to a chapter I was asked to write for a crowd-sourced novel so a lot of changes were expected, especially as the editor is American and I'm English. That said, he was good: even though the novel has to "flow" as a whole, he made no attempt to kill my "voice".
The second experience was from an editor who offered to do five pages for free, obviously in the hope I would pay him to do the whole book but why not? It gave me the chance to see if we could work together. I sent him the prologue of my next book. It's no secret: it's posted on our website if any of you have time to read it. Even better if you would leave an answer to the questions I've asked about it.
www.rebeccabrynandsarahstuart-novels....
The result was a disaster, or it would have been if I'd paid any attention. He corrected every word like "she'd" to "she had". It's not wrong, but it's not my writing style either.
One suggestion he made, he should have deleted before he returned the document: it looks fine, until you read on and discover the character simply wouldn't behave in the way he suggested, and it does become obvious. I was left wondering if he would have suggested changing her to match what he thought she should be like.
He was very polite. I have no complaints about that, but I had to say "thank you, but no, thank you".
Maya, I think you opinion of your friend's editor is correct: I hope, if she likes to use an editor, she looks for one who is both helpful and courteous.
Ken, remarks scribbled on returned material are gold-dust: luckily you realised that and used them. It shows your work is being read with interest and, as you found out, if you pay attention you do improve.
Maya:As you can see from the varied responses, all editors are not equal. Some think their corrections are equivalent to godly writ while others step easy and only suggest corrections to make a story better.
The freelance copy-editor who told me (in no uncertain terms) I had to chop 40,000 to 60,000 words from a novel she hadn't even looked at did not get hired. This would be an example of how to lose business both now and in the future.
I hope your friend finds a better editor.
Sarah wrote: "The result was a disaster, or it would have been if I'd paid any attention. He corrected every word like "she'd" to "she had". It's not wrong, but it's not my writing style either. ..."I wrote technical articles for a British computer publication a few decades ago. The editor would routinely replace all of my contractions. He even managed to make some "corrections" that altered what I was trying to convey and would never have worked on a computer.
He didn't bother to check back with me, just sent a copy of each publication after it was published.
After I finished the series, I found other work. Yes, they were paying the bills and it was their magazine, but MY NAME was on those articles and this was just a source of extra income. I did a lot of freelance work for various companies and always hoped that the persons who made the decision to engage my company had not read those botched articles.
I vowed then and there not to be that kind of editor if I ever got into the business. When I did join up with a publisher, that experience helped me to always consider the author's voice and to ask first.
Al,I wish I had a budget and could afford your time.
Actually, I'm not terribly expensive. I could charge $1000 for a full-sized novel, but I know that most self-published books will NEVER make that much money, so I can't, in good faith, demand that kind of money. Instead, I set my rates based on time at $10/hour. Much less than I used to charge when I was a mainframe computer geek. When I worked for the publisher, I was an owner, so I got my share of the profits, good or bad. Sometimes VERY bad.Really, I'm just supplementing my social security and retirement income. That's why I'm limiting it to one project per month. The rest of the time, I spend writing my own stuff or puttering around the house. With my wife gone, I have to do my own cooking and cleaning.
The problem for you is that you should also engage a good story editor first. That hikes the total bill. How much depends upon how well-written your ms is and how much time both editors have to spend on it.
For instance, I knocked out an author's second book at a rate that equated to less than $300 for 100,000 words (actually, it was less because his book wasn't that long). We'd worked together before and trusted each other, and his ms was fairly clean by the time I saw it.
I don't know how much his story editor charged him, nor what she did to it before I saw it. The story line was in good shape by the time it came to me.
I hope that gives you some kind of input to the costs you'll face. Add to that the cost of a good cover (yes, people DO judge a book by its cover, so it's very important). Then figure that you'll be lucky to sell a dozen copies in the first month and fewer after that. [I hate dashing people's dreams, but we authors should only go first class if we have a good outside income to finance our evil habit.]
And after that, some clown will come along with a half-assed poorly-edited story with a so-so cover and hit it big because s/he fell into an emerging fad. There's no justice. Witness Fifty Shades of Porn.
I hope that helps. I could blow sunshine up your behind, but I think brutal honesty is the best policy. Even though I lose a lot of business that way. Still, when I was working for the publisher, we rejected some authors who went on to do fairly well for themselves (judging by the number of titles they put out). The main rule is "nobody knows". No one!!! No one knows what will strike the public fancy. JK Rowlings was rejected by dozens of British publishers before someone took a chance on her and gave Harry Potter to the world. Star Wars was shopped all over Hollywood before someone took a chance on Lucas' baby.
Best of luck, RFG!!!
I'm a writer but also a reader obviously. My perspective is that there's a real push in the English section of the industry to encourage a written style which the industry believes is commercially viable, but which isn't at all what I like to read. In fact, it's one of the reasons I often get on better with (very successful) translated works. There's bits of advice you hear again and again, but if I start reading something that ticks all those boxes, I often put it down before I get very far with it. Good advice for editor selection might be:
1) Make sure they like books in the style the author loves and admires.
2) Send them a sample and try to decide if they're really working with that piece of writing itself, or with a set of check-boxes.
Anne wrote: "I'm a writer but also a reader obviously. My perspective is that there's a real push in the English section of the industry to encourage a written style which the industry believes is commercially ..."My experience with the editor who did five pages for free bears out your second point. He wanted to change my writing style from one that is right to another. which is equally grammatically correct. He offered no explanation, but I couldn't have worked with him: readers who enjoyed my first book would have wondered why the second was radically different.
Al, I still couldn't afford you, but thank you for making my day with "50 Shades of Porn" -)
Al,You and one other person (KP) have actually had a reasonable take on how to charge because expecting huge chunks of money merely reinforces the TAC (Truly Awful Crrap).
I learned from my experiences with my first two books, and the door-blocker (per alpha-readers of differing tastes) is good to go for copy-editing. Who knows, they may or may not be right.
The graphic artist who did my covers is pretty talented and you've probably heard of him.
As for me making it big, I think I'm better off without fame and fortune. Maybe after I'm gone my work will take off. Stranger things have happened.
For now "Mono-Earth: The War of the Egg" will wait until I can focus and muddle through the editing. Off to type by Columbus method -- find it and land on it.
Sarah wrote: "... Al, I still couldn't afford you, but thank you for making my day with "50 Shades of Porn" -) "The best advice I can give you is to have several other people look at your ms (one at a time) and try their best to SUGGEST fixes (or at least spot potential problems). Pick people who at least have a clue. Send it to people to comment on the story itself first, then to people to check for spelling, passive sentence, poor word choices, etc.
At the least, you'll fix some stuff you've missed because you're too close to your work.
If you belong to a peer-to-peer writing workshop or have a circle of writing friends, you can trade favors.
Editors, like writers and readers, in expressing their opinions can at times react in ways that are less than ideal, including their notes.
It sounds more like someone forgot where the line exists between their professional opinion (objective) and their personal opinion (subjective).