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Master and Apprentice
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April 2021 Canon Group Read: Master and Apprentice by Claudia Gray
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Read at your own pace. Post your thoughts in this thread. If you're ahead of the schedule bellow, USE SPOILER TAGS FOR MAJOR PLOT POINTS AND TWISTS. Have fun!
Week 1: April 15th - April 21st: Chapters 1-9
Week 2: April 22th - April 30th: Chapters 10-18
Week 3: May 1st - May 7th: Chapters 19-28
Week 4: May 8th - May 14th: Chapters 29 - end
For discussion within schedule you don't need to use spoiler tags.
How to use spoiler tags
<*spoiler>your spoilery text<*/spoiler> - without asterisk *
I may try to read it with the group.
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Here are two cover images to boost your interest.
regular edition with artwork by Alice X Zhang:
limited edition with artwork by Jama Jurabaev:
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You can check out her twitter for more: https://twitter.com/alicexz
Well, we can always end up comparing which version of Qui-gon is the better teacher between the two continuities.
On page 45, there is a reference to a 14 year old Queen of Naboo. It can't be Padme because this book is 8 years before The Phantom Menace. In both continuities, Padme is supposed to be the youngest Queen of Naboo elected as such at 14. Like, its clearly stated in the movies and reference books.
How did Claudia Gray miss that? And why do we keep getting children as politicians? At least in this book you are dealing with a hereditary monarchy. But why is a Jedi an active Regent on this planet? I read the book 2 years ago and loved it. I'm still enjoying it this time through, and it could be I'm just forgetting something that is explained later on in the book.
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So we're on Teth. It's the same planet Rotta the Huttlet was held captive in the Clone Wars movie.
What a coincidence. We read The Clone Wars novelization with Hailey and Rebecca this January.
There is also a reference to Ringo Vinda. That's a season 6 Clone Wars reference.
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I need to keep it in mind when I eventually get to season 6.
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Rebecca wrote: "But why is a Jedi an active Regent on this planet?"
I hope we'll get to know. Seems a bit strange to be honest. I thought Jedi tried not to entagle themselves in the planetary politics. Sent in on the behest of the Republic, solved the problem and moved out.
First impression of Rael Averross: He's kinda unorthodox for a Jedi.
BTW Varactyls are my favorite SW animals. Loved Boga in The Revenge of the Sith novelization. I hope that young Obi-Wan gets to ride one in this book.
What's up with the Czerca Corporation? Is it just a clone of the Legends Offworld?
I think so. Disney era has a habit of pulling in elements from the EU version of things and then changing the name for reasons that I could guess at but they'd only be guesses
I am still very unfamiliar with KOTOR. What is Czerka in KOTOR?
So not a rip off of Offworld then. Good to know. And at least recanonizing some part of the EU.
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Thanks, Hailey. They sound like potential trouble.
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After Chapter 4:
Why oh why? 13-14 year olds do not belong in government positions. Amidala was a fluke.
It's all the worse when the books let you get that person's point of view. The first time we meet Princess Fanry it's painfuly obvious she's both physically and mentally a child. It's nothing against her in general. What's wrong is that they're already planning her corronation - so this child is going to rule over the whole planet. *sigh*
If they really must use this trope, could we please have at least a 17 yo? That would make it more realistic. At 17 you can be mentally an adult, at 13-14 no way.
BTW Speaking of Padmé, this Pijali princess, Leia and other children holding political offices in SW, just take a second a think about what insane amount of privilege all these individuals had to have. All born royalty/aristocracy, with unlimited access to wealth and education - not to mention the nepotism that most probably had to play part in their assuming the kind of offices they hold at the very young age. Doesn't mean that they in time don't become worthy of those offices but their beginnings are at the very least questionable.
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I'm listening to the audiobook and it has an excellent narrator. I love the production. SW audiobooks are always top notch.
I find it fascinating that Qui-Gon states that it was wrong to accept a 5yo child to the Temple as the boy was way too old to be trained and what problems it caused later on. Everything he says about the consequences of that decision applies to Anakin as well.
What did you think about Qui-Gon's take on the Jedi prophecies? I enjoyed his conversation with Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon argued that he was not taking them literally - and yet we know from the movies that's not true at least in case of the Chosen One prophecy. He didn't seem to be lying so I'm looking forward to get to know what changed his mind.
BTW I'm with Yoda and the rest of the Order on this one. Beware of prophecies - they lie!
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My observation about the book called Master & Apprentice with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on the cover: Obi-Wan so far is more of a side character in the story where I expected him to be one of the leads. The book is much more about Qui-Gon himself and his relationships with Obi-Wan, Rael and Dooku. It doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the book and it might change later on. I just find it noteworthy.
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The lack of communication reminds me of the Jedi Apprentice series. ;)
This Qui-Gon is more thoughtful when it comes to teaching and very aware of his responsibility for his padawan's education and safety. I like that he questions himself.
To be fair to the Jedi Apprentice Qui-Gon, this Qui-Gon never had to overcome the trauma of losing his Padawan to the Dark side.
True. And timeline wise, this book would fall somewhere around the same time as I think book 17 of Jedi Apprentice. This version of Qui-gon seems less harsh. Though I wonder if he chose Obi-wan as his Padawan or not.
Do in this version it seems like Jedi are matched with their Padawans rather than them choosing their Padawans. Is it some sort of lottery? This also seems to contradict how Padawans are chosen in the Kanan comics. I'm kind of bummed out that Bant and Reeft didn't get brought into this timeline.
So, not do. Blasted phone app touchscreen keyboard.
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Zuzana wrote: "I'm worried that I will be like that grumpy old man standing on his porch screaming "get off my lawn!" everytime Claudia Gray contradicts something from Jude Watson's Jedi Apprentice series. *sigh*"Haha That's one of the reasons I wanted to read this book. When I was a kid I loved that series. It's been a while since I read that series, but I remember the YA series being more from Obi-Wan's perspective, and this seems to be more from Qui-Gon's perspective.
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I would say that the POV in JA is divided rather equally between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. I agree that M&A is more of a Qui-Gon's book.
M&A does a better job of having Qui-gon be more self-aware about his flaws and working on it than JA does. But JA also has more time to flesh characters out. Also JA has Tahl. I'd probably forgive this book any other differences with JA if Claudia Gray had brought a version of Tahl into this timeline.
One thing I do like about this book is that she exploring the dynamic of Qui-Gon being kind of a rebel, and how that would possibly have caused tension with Obi-Wan who was not a very controversial Jedi Knight. And she also opened up this fascination Qui-Gon had with prophecies which could explain why he was so drawn to Anakin.
Zuzana wrote: "Yeah, Peter. We've been buddyreading the JA series since January. So every single change really stands out. I'm trying to resist the urge to point out and whine about all of them. ;-)I would say t..."
I need to see if I still have those somewhere. I haven't read them since I was a kid. When Episode 1 came out, Obi-Wan was my favorite character, and I loved those books.
Claudia Gray, you state a tragic romance involving Qui-gon and yet you don't even name drop his one true love Tahl? For shame.
I understand why we got descriptions of architecture and fashion the first few times. But I don't need a description of every gown this bratty princess wears.
Rebecca wrote: "Claudia Gray, you state a tragic romance involving Qui-gon and yet you don't even name drop his one true love Tahl? For shame."Good point. That was a little not cool.
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At least, she let the door open. It's more than can be said for other characters and events in the EU as treated by Disney.
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I understand why it seemed that way. But I believe it's still essentially the Master's choice (the same as in the old EU). The level of prior "negotiations" so to speak is up to the Master. So in the Kanan comics there is a demonstration of lightsaber skills and Depa and Kanan talk to each other before Kanan (Caleb) is asked to be her Padawan. In Dooku: Jedi lost there is also a demonstration of Jedi skills and then some of the masters ask initiates. Yoda asks Dooku out of the blue, there is no previous understanding between them. Also Sifo-Dyas doesn't expect to be asked by the person that picks him (won't say who it is so I don't spoil the audio drama for you). There is this emphasis on these "exhibitions", and it makes sense. Lots of Jedi Knights don't hang around the Temple, they are on missions so they observe initiates only on these events, maybe ask around, consult the teachers (that would be benefitial) and then they take the plunge.
I believe that there are Masters who take picking of their Padawans more seriously and it's by their choice a longer process and then there are others who simply want a competent Initiate and take it from there. That's the impression I got from Dooku and Qui-Gon. Dooku I'm sure wanted an intelligent sharp and inquisitive Padawan, he didn't give a fig who it's going to be if he/she fit the bill. (When I listened to the audiobook I noted that Dooku picked Qui-Gon only 1 month after Rael was knighted. So he wasn't hung up on the process.)
I don't know if we're going to find out later how Qui-Gon picked Obi-Wan or not. But if there's no further information on that I'd hazzard a guess that he chose to do it the same way his own Master did. With no fuss.
Ah, thank you. Some of how she described it confused me. That clears up the confusion.
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Hailey, you need to tell me how you liked Shatterpoint. It's on my TBR for this year. Although that "*finally*" in your comment doesn't sound too positive. Or am I reading too much into it? :D
BTW I'm just about to start reading The Day of Reckoning. Xanatos is such a drama queen. *sigh*
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Glad I could help. My knowledge of new canon is limited but this is one of the very few things I know for certain. :)
BTW I listened to a couple of chapters of M&A, currently listening to chapter 12.
I've come across something that pisses me off. A lot. I'm going to sleep on it - because right now me commenting on it would devolve into a huge rambly rant. ;)
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- Death of Rael's Padawan - Isn't it odd that Qui-Gon doesn't know for certain what happened was Rael's fault and yet tells Obi-Wan as if it's a fact? Qui-Gon might as well be right. I just don't like that he doesn't make it clear to Obi-Wan that this accusation is based only on Qui-Gon's knowledge of Rael's character and nothing else.
- Back to Jedi prophesies - Rael makes it clear that Qui-Gon was obsessed with them when younger and at the time believed them verbatim. It contradicts what Qui-Gon told Obi-Wan earlier in the book. He might have changed his mind when older. It's just interesting.
The prophecy about the Council that Rael discusses with Qui-Gon just illustrates how unreliable, pointless and useless prophecies are. It's so vague and yet both Rael and Qui-Gon act like it surely relates to Qui-Gon and his invitation to the Council. *shakes head in disbelief* Only prophecies I'm willing to believe in are the self-fulfilling ones. And they almost always suck.
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I'll wait for your review then. :) I hope that Shatterpoint is much better than Wild Space - that was one of the worst published works I've ever read.
BTW "Apocalypse now" was inspired by Conrad's Heart of Darkness. You might have read the book, I believe it's required school reading.
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I can't believe they let Claudia Gray invent one more controversial aspect of Master/Padawan relationship that by itself is extremely problematic as it is.
I bet she thought that her introduction of the more "Squire-like" type of duties for Padawans was clever and neat ("See, they're more like the real knights and squires from our history"). I think it's total BS. Why would you add something so controversial when it's totally unsupported by anything we have had in the canon up to this point?
I first noticed when Obi-Wan thought something along the lines that Master's hobbies and preferences dictate what Padawan does in his free time. It instantly rubbed me the wrong way. It could well have been that Padawans naturally adopt their Master's hobbies (because they spend so much time together). But apparently not. The subsequent dialogue with Qui-Gon showed that Masters boss their Padawans around outside their teacher/student relationship and use them for personal errands and menial tasks they can't be bothered to do themselves. The fact that Obi-Wan is supposed to care for Qui-Gon's boots (and Qui-Gon is used to leaving them in the middle of the room?!) is just f-d up.
Claudia Gray was very obviously inspired by the medieval Knight/Squire relationship but she didn't think through the implications of applying it to the Jedi culture. These practices belong to the Middle Ages for a reason and in modern education would be seen as abusive*. So what were some other duties of medieval Squires? Maintaining the knight’s armour and looking after his horse. The squire was expected to be with his knight throughout the day, helping him to dress, serving him at table, running errands and messages and sleeping by his door at night, ready to help fight off any intruders. There was also (not always but often) a social and economical disparity between the parties involved. That's why some squires never became knights, because they were unable to afford the expense of maintaining a horse and armour. So should I expect to see Obi-Wan standing at the back of Qui-Gon's chair and wait on him while he eats and drinks? Or to scrub Qui-Gon's back while he bathes? Or young Depa to dress Mace Windu in his sleepwear (hopefully he doesn't sleep in the nude - now that would have been awkward)? Or Ahsoka to sleep in front of Anakin's door? It's ridiculous.
To my knowledge, padawans haven't been shown in any 1st level canon material (movies and TV shows) to act as servants, vallets, low ranking squires or call it whatever you like. As terrible as the Jedi were as an educational institution they were better than that.
*There's a lot of abusive elements in the Padawanship as shown in the movies. Let's not add more in the books, please.
RANT OVER
Sorry, I had to get it out. :D
BTW, I know it doesn't seem so but I'm quite enjoying the book (despite the above complaint).
I'd already forgotten she made it more like a knight and squire dynamic because later in the book she herself ignores it. I'm on chapter 22 and it seems like its mainly the early chapters that explore that concept. I don't get why she did that either.
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So why do it in the first place if she herself drops it later in the book?
BTW Back to our previous discussion. It ocurred to me that Dooku was depicted in the EU as extremely xenophobic. I wonder if he had a specific requirement for his Padawans to be human species. Would make sense.
Zuzana wrote: "Just a couple of other notes:- Death of Rael's Padawan - Isn't it odd that Qui-Gon doesn't know for certain what happened was Rael's fault and yet tells Obi-Wan as if it's a fact? Qui-Gon might a..."
In general, one of the things I do not enjoy about this book is how angsty some of the characters are. Especially the Jedi. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are ticked off at each other in an annoyingly passive aggressive way half the time. I know Jedi aren't supposed to be perfect, but they also shouldn't have the emotional intelligence of a seventh grader either.
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That's a great point, Peter. Unfortunately that's a flaw that many SW books have in common. The aforementioned frankly terrible Karen Miller's Wild Space, over the top characterization of Anakin in Karen Traviss's The Clone Wars, Master Comac in Claudia Gray's Into the Dark to name but few. And these are only the books I read this year.
BTW I can understand Obi-Wan acting in a passive agressive way - he's an adolescent, he's bound to be annoying and self-centered half the time. The fact that he's facing what he perceives as rejection from his Master /the only real parental figure in his life/ and said Master doesn't bother to explain his reasons properly to him makes his annoying reactions excusable in my view. The lack of communication from Qui-Gon who's supposed to be the adult in this relationship is more bothersome.
Zuzana wrote: "Peter wrote: "In general, one of the things I do not enjoy about this book is how angsty some of the characters are."That's a great point, Peter. Unfortunately that's a flaw that many SW books ha..."
That is a good point.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Into the Dark (other topics)Dooku: Jedi Lost (other topics)
Lost Stars (other topics)
Wild Space (other topics)
Into the Dark (other topics)
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April 2021 Canon Group Read
Master and Apprentice by Claudia Gray
Group Read starts on April 15th.
- Published in April 2019
- Set in 40 BBY
An unexpected offer threatens the bond between Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi as the two Jedi navigate a dangerous new planet and an uncertain future.
A Jedi must be a fearless warrior, a guardian of justice, and a scholar in the ways of the Force. But perhaps a Jedi’s most essential duty is to pass on what they have learned. Master Yoda trained Dooku; Dooku trained Qui-Gon Jinn; and now Qui-Gon has a Padawan of his own. But while Qui-Gon has faced all manner of threats and danger as a Jedi, nothing has ever scared him like the thought of failing his apprentice.
Obi-Wan Kenobi has deep respect for his Master, but struggles to understand him. Why must Qui-Gon so often disregard the laws that bind the Jedi? Why is Qui-Gon drawn to ancient Jedi prophecies instead of more practical concerns? And why wasn’t Obi-Wan told that Qui-Gon is considering an invitation to join the Jedi Council—knowing it would mean the end of their partnership? The simple answer scares him: Obi-Wan has failed his Master.
When Jedi Rael Averross, another former student of Dooku, requests their assistance with a political dispute, Jinn and Kenobi travel to the royal court of Pijal for what may be their final mission together. What should be a simple assignment quickly becomes clouded by deceit, and by visions of violent disaster that take hold in Qui-Gon’s mind. As Qui-Gon’s faith in prophecy grows, Obi-Wan’s faith in him is tested—just as a threat surfaces that will demand that Master and apprentice come together as never before, or be divided forever.
April 2021 Legends Group Read: Dark Force Rising by Timothy Zahn, starts on April 1st.
April 2021 Canon Group Read: Master and Apprentice by Claudia Gray, starts on April 15th.
Both reads run for a month. So if you're really interested in both books you can manage to join both discussions.