What Are We Reading? 8 March 2021

[Anastasia]

@AB76 1906 was something that was boiling for years and in the end backfired pretty much for everyone involved. Even the supposedly socialist movement drowned in opportunism

[SydneyH]

Anastasia wrote: "@SydneyH re "possibly wasting your youth reading dusty old classics": I've been worried about the opposite ever since I joined TLS. Never read James, but the fact about Babel losing his edge in tra..."

Thank you, that's very comforting. I like about half of James, but when I consider how much of the other half I've gotten through I start to question my life choices :) Always great hearing from you.

[CCCubbon]

SydneyH wrote: "Anastasia wrote: "@SydneyH re "possibly wasting your youth reading dusty old classics": I've been worried about the opposite ever since I joined TLS. Never read James, but the fact about Babel losi..."

One of the few things that I have learned in my eighty odd years is to do what makes you happy and if that’s reading dusty old classics, that’s fine.

[scarletnoir]

Peace by Garry Disher

You know how when you try a bottle of wine for the first time, you like it (or think you do), so you buy a couple more to see if they confirm the first impression? (Or maybe it's just me who does that...)

Well, I do much the same with books, especially if they form part of a series... Having read and enjoyed the first 'Hirsch' novel - Bitter Wash Road - I decided to try another... in fact, the last to date. Another will be published in 2021.

'Peace' has many of the strengths of the first book - convincing descriptions of the small towns in South Australia, believable characters, interesting Aussie words... finding a tale set at Christmas time, where it is extremely hot, certainly emphasises the location for those of us in the N. hemisphere! For the most part, the plot works fine, but at the end it became rather unconvincing. Not quite as good as the first book, then, but still entertaining enough that I'll read more by Disher.

(One slightly odd point from the afterword - it appears that the novel was written as part of work for a Ph.D. - did Disher do this recently? Or has he resurrected an early work, and wrote a prequel in 'Bitter Wash Road'? I have no idea.)

[AB76]

Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Afternoon all, thanks LL for your hard work to get this new week up and running, Justine will be on all our minds i'm sure...

Late Imperial Russia: Problems and Prospects

In Dubious..."

Good stuff, i hope more of Pla's non-fiction gets translated into english too, he was prolific apparently in catalan, with a huge set of diary volumes covering his life

[AB76]

Anastasia wrote: "@AB76 1906 was something that was boiling for years and in the end backfired pretty much for everyone involved. Even the supposedly socialist movement drowned in opportunism"

i found a section of the 1897 Tsarist census translated into english based on the languages spoken(not always 100% reliable from an autocratic regime) but its a fascinating collection of data on the diversity within the Empire. It helped me research the various Finnish communities living within the Empire informing my reading of a Finnish WW2 novel, which was set in the Karelia region. All the Karelian Finns who were Orthodox on one side vs the Karelian Finns who were Lutheran on the western side. Likewise the Ukranian language situation in the west of Imperial Ukraine (obviously the Lvov area and the other far western regions were in Austro-Hungary at the time)

More documentation translated like this is useful to study the Empire. I did find an online copy of the entire 1897 census in Russian but i dont speak or read the wonderful lingo and it was embedded in a file, so google translate couldnt do an easy job for me

[Anastasia]

@AB76 it was quite a diverse empire, not in the least because of its size alone. I would suspect the census to be quite true to what was really going on at the time language-wise. This was well before the propaganda as we know it kicked in, so there was hardly any need to change the real figures at the time. I would suspect, however, that some of the nationalities or languages we're not captured or logged in under the same name.
You can send me a link here or in private messages and I could take a closer look (I'd love to, to be honest).

[AB76]

Anastasia wrote: "@AB76 it was quite a diverse empire, not in the least because of its size alone. I would suspect the census to be quite true to what was really going on at the time language-wise. This was well bef..."

Hi Anastasia

Here is the language census link, translated:
ttp://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_lan_9...

it starts on the Courland (aka a region of Latvia now) as i was looking into Baltic Germans originally a few years back.

This is European Russia minus the Polish regions(Partition of Poland) and Finland, which suprised me, as both were part of the European Russia

if you speak russian, there is a russian language link at the bottom, in fact i have just found i can translate with google.,..bingo...as the russian language bit includes all of the empire! ignore my comment about just european russia

[Lljones]

@Anastasia wrote & @AB76 wrote ..."

Ooh, that language census is fascinating! I look forward to your continued conversation about this.

[AB76]

Lljones wrote: "@Anastasia wrote & @AB76 wrote ..."

Ooh, that language census is fascinating! I look forward to your continued conversation about this."

i think its one of the important historical documents in Russian history and the most detailed late census of Empire from the 19th centur. Even if its based on extracts not the full text

The British Empire census of 1901 is a similar scale of record and i have that link in online book form(though the British Isles are not included)

British Empire Census 1901 (some of the island and nations have no data but the dominions(Can,NZ,AUS,SAF), India and others are superbly documented, with religion, population, employment,sex all included):
https://ia800208.us.archive.org/32/it...

[Bill]

scarletnoir wrote: "I don't see how anyone could disagree with this point."

Well, I disagree with it to the extent that “a publisher choosing not to reprint an unpopular and dated book” refers to the Dr Seuss controversy. As explained in this NY Times article, the books were removed by the estate of the author and they seem to be taking the position that the books will not be reprinted under any circumstances. This action has perversely – but predictably – had the effect of creating a huge after-market demand for used copies, which of course are now astronomically priced. So, with the exception of those who might have access to (likely) now-restricted library copies, the books are now out of the hands of the general public presumably until sometime in the future when they become public domain.

My own position is similar to that of the bookstore owner quoted in the article:

Regardless of the content, books go out of print every day if they don’t sell, and indeed, some of the Seuss books would likely be in that category if they had been written by another author. Valerie Lewis, a co-owner of Hicklebee’s bookstore in San Jose, Calif., said that sort of attrition is perfectly sensible, but pulling a book altogether for political reasons makes her uncomfortable.

“I think when there is something in a book that you find offensive, what a great teaching opportunity,” Ms. Lewis said.

“We all have a choice as to whether we buy it or not,” she added, “but removing it kind of makes me want to shake my head.”

[Bill]

Berkley wrote: "Does he mention another Sand novel, Consuelo, by any chance?"

Walker does mention Consuelo a few times, though makes no judgment on its literary quality (which is why I was struck by the exceptional nature of the passage I quoted). He cites it in a footnote as demonstrating Sand’s knowledge of music. He thinks some of the musical opinions expressed by the character maestro Nicola Antonio Porpora derive from Chopin, and says the title character is based on their mutual acquaintance, Pauline Viardot. For further Viardot literary connections, see Orlando Figes’ The Europeans: Three Lives and the Making of a Cosmopolitan Culture.

[Andy]

Undermajordomo Minor by Patrick deWitt
It was a long time ago when I read The Sisters Brothers, but I do remember really enjoying it (though finding the film hard work). I've left it a long time to get to this, knowing it would be good, I guess just saving it, like a last chocolate in the box.
Its a type of surreal fantasy, but its not long into the book when it becomes evident that though the plot is fun, it is not the main thing going on here. The most pleasure comes from DeWitt's use of language, especially the voice he gives to his narrator, Lucy. There is a formal tone to it, which plays to its seemingly European, historical setting.

May I admit to being disappointed in you, boy?” asks Olderglough. “You may write a lengthy treatise on the subject, sir, and I will read it with interest,” replies Lucy.

I've read a few reviews and seen it compared to many things, but with its darkly humorous and irreverent tone it reads to me like a Python film.
Though I described it as fantasy, and it has certain qualities of a fairy tale, it remains rooted in reality, and therefore its moments of tender humanity are that much better appreciated.

(Lucy)..."As it happens, I’m chasing after a girl, Father. For it has come to pass that I’ve fallen in love.” Father Raymond leaned in. “In love, you say?” “Just so.” “And what is that like? I’ve often wondered about it.” Lucy said, “It is a glory and a torment.” “Really? Would you not recommend it, then?” “I would recommend it highly. Just to say it’s not for the faint of heart."

DeWitt does something in his afterword that I wish other authors would do more often, quoting his influences for the book, and goes on to name Thomas Bernhard, Ivy Compton Burnett, Italo Calvino, Dennis Cooper, Robert Coover, Roakd Dahl, JP Donleavy, Knut Hamsun, Sammy Harkham, Werner Herzog, Bohumil Hrabal, Shirley Jackson, Par Lagerkvist, Harry Matthews, Steven Millhauser, Jean Rhys, Robert Walser and Eudora Welty - quite a list, not all of whom I am familiar with, so looks like some more added to the tbr list...

[Paul]

Andy wrote: "I've read a few reviews and seen it compared to many things, but with its darkly humorous and irreverent tone it reads to me like a Python film."

Ah, that is exactly what DeWitt feels like, one of the more anchored parts of a Python sketch. French Exit is similarly smartly funny and a bit out of whack. Glad you liked it.

[AB76]

Am enjoying "In Dubious Battle" by John Steinbeck much more the second time round, so far. Its a radical novel politically, looking at the small but fervent communist presence in the USA, among apple pickers in California...the party is never named, just called "the party", though the agitators are referred to as "reds"

interesting article on steinbeck and communism:

http://www.steinbecknow.com/2013/09/1...

[Lljones]

Paul wrote: "Andy wrote: "I've read a few reviews and seen it compared to many things, but with its darkly humorous and irreverent tone it reads to me like a Python film."

Ah, that is exactly what DeWitt feels..."

Patrick deWitt on how Monty Python influences his writing, and his belief in the supernatural

French Exit was published in 2018...new one on the horizon?

[MK]

Bill wrote: "The issue of censorship and enforcing political correctness in determining which books get published and are available to the general public gets seen differently, I think, when the subject is limi..."

Just a little off topic, but Donald Duck reminded me to post this - https://www.fantagraphics.com/

This shop is where I bought my biography of Little Lulu, the comic that was my first subscription at about age 7. Loved Little Lulu, a feisty girl who knew her own mind and said so!

Fantagraphics is having a big sale 25-27 March.

[Bill]

The problem for me is not the issue of individual expression – the liberties and limitations of that have to be fought out constantly in many contexts. With these books that are 70-80 years old, it’s more a matter of mis-representation or suppression of the past. “Maintaining the brand” on Dr Seuss isn’t, or shouldn’t be, like the corporate decisions surrounding the discontinuation of marketing Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben brand products. He was an artist and author whose work at any given moment had both personal and historical context.

There’s some value in showing how widely and casually held some attitudes were, even by individuals that might be considered the most enlightened of the times. Otherwise there’s an ahistorical sense created of them being “scandalous” beliefs for anyone to have held at any time in history. Instead of this contextualizing, the estate seems determined to keep the author current with the latest definition of “woke”.

How long can we allow Green Eggs and Ham to openly flaunt the dietary taboos of two of the three main Abrahamic religions, as well as popularizing the kind of material Vegan parents don’t want their children exposed to?

[[deleted user]]

Lljones wrote: "Patrick deWitt on how Monty Python influences his writing ..."

And a shout-out for Pym. Good man.

[Lljones]

Anne wrote: "Lljones wrote: "Patrick deWitt on how Monty Python influences his writing ..."

And a shout-out for Pym. Good man."

Yes, I actually was looking for his comments on Pym when I found the Python piece. He's spoken of her influence frequently.

From Barbara Pym to Barbara Comyns: Patrick DeWitt Picks His Favorites

[Boo]

I'm going to read a couple of chapters of the Phantom Tollbooth tonight. RIP Norton thanks for making me and my daughter smile.

[AB76]

Machenbach wrote: "Bill wrote: "pulling a book altogether for political reasons makes her uncomfortable.."
Yes, it ought to make us uncomfortable and, not having read the books myself, I'm in no position to make a pe..."

I suppose i see this in the idea of the "informed" reader, if i pick up Mein Kampf or as i did recently the unhinged diaries of the Romanian anti-semite Codreanu, i am reading them with a clear notion that these are obnoxious, ill-informed texts to be studied as warning signs of how lies and misinformation are spread. The flaw in my idea is that not every consumer of books or reading material(notice i didnt uses the term "reader"), reads for the pure enjoyment of ideas and theories.

I have long believed that demagogues and populists cherry pick from their favourite controversial texts and then twist them which makes me wonder, its not the actual texts that are the problem in many cases, its how they are "interpreted"

However controversial texts without suitable warning signs, conttextual essays and modern appreciations attached can be a real problem in a more tolerant world.

[Georg]

A tale from the other side of the pond (or the Channel).

It is only losely connected to the "banning" of books. It isn't even about the content, let alone the quality, of the book in question.

Which I find even more chilling in its implications.


But I'll leave you to make up your own mind:

https://blog.lrb.co.uk/blog/2019/sept...

[Veufveuve]

Smaller shops were allowed to reopen last week and we had realisation that the tiny secondhand book and record store up the street might be open - and it was! The English language selection is never large, but there's always something I'd read. Bought two books. "A Tale of Two Cities," which I've never read - indeed, I've not read a Dickens for two or three decades. And there was a Patrick White, "The Vivesector." I've never read him, but I know there are fans here, so I went for that. Has anyone read it?

[scarletnoir]

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "I don't see how anyone could disagree with this point."

Well, I disagree with it to the extent that “a publisher choosing not to reprint an unpopular and dated book” refers to ..."

I didn't mention Dr Seuss in my reference to MB's original post; nor does the word 'estate' appear anywhere in that paragraph.

[AB76]

Veufveuve wrote: "Smaller shops were allowed to reopen last week and we had realisation that the tiny secondhand book and record store up the street might be open - and it was! The English language selection is neve..."

I have long loathed Patrick White, disliking every book i read until i read his first novel "Happy Valley" in 2020 and loved it, set among the Snowy Mtns of NSW. I havent read "The Vivesector" but i think White is worth reading again, after loving "Happy Valley". He was an odd reticent figure in Australian literature,barely gave any interviews, a man who loathed the sporting culture that drove the country, a homosexual in a very masculine prejudiced world.

Denmark seems to opening quickly then, its not even full spring yet?

[SydneyH]

Veufveuve wrote: "And there was a Patrick White, "The Vivesector." I've never read him, but I know there are fans here, so I went for that. Has anyone read it?"

I'm surprised you have to ask. I think it's miraculous that The Vivisector is the one you found serendipitously - in my view it's the only novel where White got everything right. I think it's one of the greatest novels I've read, but I struggle to persuade people to read it, because it's long.

[SydneyH]

Lljones wrote: "Interesting links about books and reading

For the fans of Leonora Carrington...."

@LL, thanks for the link, I just haven't had time to read the article yet - I always appreciate your Carrington links when you come across them.

[AB76]

In Dubious Battle by John Steinbeck is flying along at a breakneck pace, 90 pages have flown by, the style is dialogue heavy with a brevity in the natural descriptions that works well.

As i have mentioned before, as a younger man, i disliked this novel and remember wishing i hadnt bothered, strange really as i was same age as Steinbeck when he wrote this, roughly

The deplorable conditions of migrant work in California mirrored the rest of the USA in these times of depression era scarcity,Steinbeck is alive with the youthful anger against exploitation of labour

So far the main character Jim seems totally naive, again something i dont remember from my first reading of it. The ubiquitous presence of cops and private cops harrassing migrants in streets and towns is the story of capitalism at its very worst, something the USA specialised in, even as FDR was doing some of the best work of any national leader to get the nation back on its feet

[Hushpuppy]

Andy wrote (#14): "My version [of Silence] had an introduction from Martin Scorsese..can anyone recommend the film?"

I've read the book first, with some caveats about the translation, and then I tried to watch the film, but couldn't go past the hour mark. It was not that it was a bad film, but it was relentlessly bleak and dour and didn't really captivate me, and since I knew where it was going, I was not interested - at this point in time - in continuing to watch it. The only other person - who is half-Japanese - I know who's seen it didn't particularly rate it, but again, not because of the direction, acting or cinematography, etc. but because they didn't really connect with the story. Sorry, this is not particularly helpful, but since nobody else has replied in the mean time on the film, I thought this might be better than nothing!

[Lljones]

SydneyH wrote: "Lljones wrote: "Interesting links about books and reading

For the fans of Leonora Carrington...."

@LL, thanks for the link, I just haven't had time to read the article yet - I always appreciate y..."

;) I should have posted the full name of the article, might be of interest to more than just Carrington fans... (Bill?)

How Leonora Carrington Used Tarot to Reach Self-Enlightenment

[Tam]

Bill wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Does he mention another Sand novel, Consuelo, by any chance?"

Walker does mention Consuelo a few times, though makes no judgment on its literary quality (which is why..."

quite a few years back I visited the apartment in Valldemossa, in Majorca, where George Sands and Chopin lived for a while. It is in a lovely ex-monastery with fantastic views across the south of the island. I would love to have spent time living there. She wrote a book about their sojourn, 'A winter in Majorca', which was, apparently very uncomplimentary about the locals, and, at the time, the Majorcan tourist board refused to endorse it!... Insults can last for a very long time it seems... Still I loved the place. It was well worth a visit.

[Hushpuppy]

AB76 wrote: "However controversial texts without suitable warning signs, conttextual essays and modern appreciations attached can be a real problem in a more tolerant world."

I entirely agree with that; and that's probably my biggest issue with what that bookshop owner has to say "when there is something in a book that you find offensive, what a great teaching opportunity". Yes, a teaching opportunity. So not something to put in any kid's hands, or to continue printing without accompanying it with some enlightening foreword aimed at its young audience, or an informed parent or teacher discussing it with the kids, at the very least. Now, in these particular cases, there are surely other, better books to educate at any rate; these were not even popular in the first place.

[Hushpuppy]

Tam wrote: "Still I loved the place. It was well worth a visit."

Yes, I've visited and loved it too. But then again I think everything about Mall/jorca is absolutely gorgeous (I have stayed well clear of Magaluf and Port de Pollença of course).

[SydneyH]

CCCubbon wrote: "One of the few things that I have learned in my eighty odd years is to do what makes you happy and if that’s reading dusty old classics, that’s fine."

Thanks :) I clearly need to indulge myself a bit more.

[Shelflife_wasBooklooker]

SydneyH wrote: "I’m incorrigible, there is clearly no hope for me."
Ah, I don't know. Like various other incorrigibles here, I find your approach full of hope (not least due to your valiant pursuing of a Henry James read)!

From one incorrigible to the other: I have not even finished my reread of Dostoevsky's The Gambler for my reading group yet. Still, I preferred reading about ten pages of The Elephant's Journey this morning, for Justine's thread. And then I was reluctant to start working. Of course, tonight am reluctant to continue the Dostoevsky.
Well done...

There are quite enough new reads and rereads here, as dusty as any lover of books might like them. (Hapchou.)
BUT, still, I have ordered Pat Barker's The Silence of the Girls, which tony2014 recommended in a recent G thread, as well as Kate Lister's A Curious History of Sex. And The Portable Paradise is due to arrive soon...

See? I stand, incorrected. And, most probably, incorrigible.

[Bill]

Tam wrote: "quite a few years back I visited the apartment in Valldemossa, in Majorca, where George Sands and Chopin lived for a while."


From one of Walker’s extensive footnotes, I’m led to believe that from 1932 – 2011 there were two cells in the Valldemosa monastery, numbers 2 and 4, which rival owners claimed as the one occupied by Sand and Chopin, until a court judgment in 2011 found that Cell 4 was the actual cell where the composer stayed. It also found that the piano in Cell 2, claimed to be the instrument on which the Preludes and Third Scherzo were composed, was a Spanish instrument built after Chopin’s death.

Walker quotes Sand in Un hiver à Majorque as calling the Majorcans a “stupid, thieving, and bigoted race.” From the point of view of the physical torments suffered by Chopin, the chapter on Majorca was the most harrowing so far, though I have yet to read of his last visit to Britain and death in Paris.

[AB76]

Hushpuppy wrote: "Tam wrote: "Still I loved the place. It was well worth a visit."

Yes, I've visited and loved it too. But then again I think everything about Mall/jorca is absolutely gorgeous (I have stayed well c..."

good idea to stay clear of Alcudia and Magaluf, i recommend the old town of Pollenca though, a few miles from the port, its wonderful

Two Majorcan novels i have on my list are:
The Sea by Blai Bonet (Catalan language, 1957)
The Island by Anna Maria Mutate (spanish language,1959)
Both available in translation from Dalkey and Penguin

[Anastasia]

@ΑΒ76 thank you! The English version of the page is somewhat harder to navigate and I surely didn't expect to find a Lithuanian city of Siauliai in the Kiev governorate. Its fascinating to see how back in 1897 it was largely populated by ethnic Ukrainians and Jews, knowing that just some 50-60 years later more Russians will come to stay.

The outliers are also quite intriguing: some Spanish/Portuguese family of six and 3 kalmyks. Greek doesn't seem to be that popular, which is expected, and is on the same level as Lithuanian, which is a language/nationality I would think to be more widespread in the central part of modern-day Ukraine.

Another curious thing is the demographic change between different (in some cases geographically close) regions of the same country and its relation to modern ratios. This.. is fascinating :)

[Tam]

Bill wrote: "Tam wrote: "quite a few years back I visited the apartment in Valldemossa, in Majorca, where George Sands and Chopin lived for a while."


From one of Walker’s extensive footnotes, I’m led to belie..."

Cell is not exactly the right word to conjure it up, this is a very large room with an upstairs room in the roof space, substantial windows onto a large terrace with fantastic views from the terrace. It was de-luxe 'holiday' accommodation to me. No sign of a piano though, from what I remember.

[Bill]

Lljones wrote: ";) I should have posted the full name of the article, might be of interest to more than just Carrington fans... (Bill?)"

Thanks, I find Tarot card designs fascinating - the artist has to find a balance between traditional iconography and individual expression. It's kind of like a composer using traditional formal structures: new wine in old bottles.

[Lljones]

Bill wrote: "Lljones wrote: ";) I should have posted the full name of the article, might be of interest to more than just Carrington fans... (Bill?)"

Thanks, I find Tarot card designs fascinating - the artist ..."

Just checked my brother's catalog, found:

[AB76]

Anastasia wrote: "@ΑΒ76 thank you! The English version of the page is somewhat harder to navigate and I surely didn't expect to find a Lithuanian city of Siauliai in the Kiev governorate. Its fascinating to see how ..."

that suprised me its in Kiev governate, that must be a mistake in the text, i cant see it in the english version and Kiev governate only seems to stretch as far North as Chernobyl on maps but interesting details you found there. (are you from that area? Lithuania?)


UPDATE: Think i solved the Kiev governate issue: the actual display is poorly done, Siualai is in Kovno governate but the dropdowns are all merged so it looks like its in Kiev governate

These sort of census records are incredible to study, i mentioned the British Empire 1901 census, plus many countries have more basic historical census info for free on state websites (except of course, the good ol UK, where you cannot get any good census info in aggregated tables on any state website. the private sector filched all the records to make you pay, usually on geneology sites) Suprisingly, another private sector vulture nation, the USA has all its censuses available for free back to the 1800s

The Imperial German census books are possibly the finest of all, alongside the British Indian gazeteers. I was drilling down within the Protestant population of Brandenburg, to search for Reformed not Lutheran adherents, thats some detail!

[Bill]

Lljones wrote: "Just checked my brother's catalog, found:"

The Waite and Crowley books, especially the former, were fairly popular Tarot guides back in the 70s, and may still be for all I know. I only have the Waite, but do own a copy of the Crowley deck. I find their designs particularly pleasing as pictures. (I remember overhearing someone in a New Age bookstore once explaining that the cards are beautiful, but “Crowley put so much evil into those images”.)

I’ve seen the games book (or perhaps something similar, I think it was actually Twelve Tarot Games), but I wasn’t aware, as Goodreads comments seem to indicate, that one of its purposes is to disassociate the deck from its mystical associations.

[Lljones]

AB76 wrote: "Surprisingly, another private sector vulture nation, the USA has all its censuses available for free back to the 1800s..."

True, but, other than aggregate population data for redistricting purposes, they are held from public for 72 years. Latest census data available with detail is 1940.

I'm something of a nut about census records, having spent about 20 years doing genealogical research on my various ancestral lines. Mine is an amazingly white, Anglo-Saxon, family tree (a niece did the DNA testing recently, and yes, we have a high hit on 'Neanderthal' genes!). So I'm most familiar with the US and UK census records. I'm very intrigued by these Russian records, and I'd love to see the British Empire ones too should they ever become available.

I had a whole 'nother set of tasks planned for today, but instead, I've spent a ridiculous amount of time converting the Russian data into an Access database so I can dive deeper into analyzing the language data. More on that later.

[Lljones]

Anastasia wrote: "This.. is fascinating :) ..."

Indeed.

As I just replied to AB76, I'm wasting my time building a database to do some other analysis. More on that later, but I do have a question for you: I'm curious about the listing of 'Jewish' as a language. Is that how it appears in the Russian data? And what language is that? Do you think that's accurate - was there a single language spoken by the entire Jewish population of Russia in 1897?

[Bill]

Machenbach wrote: "But I'm pretty sure that most children don't have the reading skills or the historical knowledge to do this, and I'm not convinced that many of these books have the kind of additional value or complexity that would make it perhaps worth reading them alongside a child with an accompanying meta-discourse about historical attitudes &c,"

I should say that I’m not really thinking about these as books for contemporary kids; not having read much of it myself as a child, I tend to think of children’s literature as primarily didactic and, for the most part, of its time and therefore disposable. Probably most children’s books are antiquated by the time they are only slightly older than their intended audience. I think many “classics” are books contemporary adults loved as children and therefore attempt to foist on subsequent generations; this is certainly true of the Dr Seuss books. Other than Lewis Carroll and maybe Treasure Island, I haven’t found any books specifically written for children that I consider, as literature or even entertainment, worth an adult’s attention.

To take 70 or 80 year old children’s books and expect them to perform as modern examples of the genre is a bit like taking an equally old automobile and expecting it to meet modern emission control standards. I tend to think of the Seuss books in the same category as old comic strips and comic books – they were intended to serve and entertain the time for which they were written, but can’t possibly be expected to conform to modern sensibilities; they are nevertheless worth preserving and are certainly of interest to some modern (mainly or perhaps exclusively adult) readers from a number of points-of-view. Should Windsor McCay’s Little Nemo in Slumberland be inaccessible to the general public because it contains ethnic stereotypes which we find offensive today?


"When I was a kid it was common (for boys at least) to read books and magazines in which Cowboys slaughtered Injuns or Anglo-American soldiers stuck it to 'the Hun'. I don't think many kids read them these days, not because the books are banned or have been suddenly withdrawn in the way those Seuss books have, but because over time parents just began to find them inappropriate until such point as they became merely a niche market - one that I suspect is largely made up of people of our age. "

Naw, the college kids today are wild about that stuff, as indicated by this book I picked up at a used book sale two years ago:

"... this edition makes frequently overlooked dime Westerns readily accessible for serious study, particularly in courses that emphasize a new historicist or cultural studies approach."

[Bill]

Lljones wrote: "Anastasia wrote: "I'm curious about the listing of 'Jewish' as a language. Is that how it appears in the Russian data? And what language is that? Do you think that's accurate - was there a single language spoken by the entire Jewish population of Russia in 1897?"

I haven't been following this, but I just had a look at the database. "Jewish" must certainly be Yiddish - I have a 1939 Russian novel from NYRB translated from the Yiddish: The Family Mashber.

[Magrat]

Hushpuppy wrote: "Andy wrote (#14): "My version [of Silence] had an introduction from Martin Scorsese..can anyone recommend the film?"

I've read the book first, with some caveats about the translation, and then I t..."

I have seen the film, and agree that it was relentlessly bleak, but compellingly beautiful to look at. Never read the book.

[Lljones]

Bill wrote: "I haven't been following this, but I just had a look at the database. "Jewish" must certainly be Yiddish..."

Maybe. Probably. I'm just asking whether it's likely that the entire Jewish ethnoreligious group in Russia at the time (1890s) spoke the same language.