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Winter Is Not Coming.....in 2015
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message 51:
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Nokomis.FL
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Feb 02, 2015 11:09AM
IIRC, Tom Clancy's ex only had rights for a period of time, like a decade. This is why he started writing Jack Ryan and Jack Ryan, Jr. books with Mark Greaney.
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At least the book isn't out because he's not done. This whole movie thing where they split up the last movie in a trilogy and then release it years apart is dumb. OK, split it up if you want more money, but don't make them so far apart in release date.
Eric wrote: "At least the book isn't out because he's not done. This whole movie thing where they split up the last movie in a trilogy and then release it years apart is dumb. OK, split it up if you want more m..."Making them closer means less profit they want to make as much profit off one sequel at a time.
Chakara wrote: "Eric wrote: "At least the book isn't out because he's not done. This whole movie thing where they split up the last movie in a trilogy and then release it years apart is dumb. OK, split it up if yo..."Why is that?
Eric wrote: "Chakara wrote: "Eric wrote: "At least the book isn't out because he's not done. This whole movie thing where they split up the last movie in a trilogy and then release it years apart is dumb. OK, s..."I don't know if this is for me or for Eric but think about it. If both movies came out at the same time for one it would defeat the purpose of having them split into two and another with the attention span of the public people would quickly watch one and then the other and quickly move on to the next thing profits would plummet fairly quick.
Eric wrote: "Chakara wrote: "Eric wrote: "At least the book isn't out because he's not done. This whole movie thing where they split up the last movie in a trilogy and then release it years apart is dumb. OK, s..."I just noticed that you are Eric so that first part makes no sense sorry trying to multi task I have writing due in my screenplay class.
Also, these moves can run 6 figures per minute making them separate movies is just all around more profitable.
Chakara wrote: "Eric wrote: "Chakara wrote: "Eric wrote: "At least the book isn't out because he's not done. This whole movie thing where they split up the last movie in a trilogy and then release it years apart i..."Right, but if I watch two - they've made 2xticket price from me. Who cares if they make it this year and next year or twice in this year?
Eric wrote: "Chakara wrote: "Eric wrote: "Chakara wrote: "Eric wrote: "At least the book isn't out because he's not done. This whole movie thing where they split up the last movie in a trilogy and then release ..."They care because they want to make as much money as possible and hopefully break even. It's just not worth it for the company to bring them out that close together and too pricey to make it one long movie. Could they make it one shorter movie? yes,but then it gets into the artistic vision being compromised and blah blah blah.
In short its good for us but they don't look at it the same way. Honestly as a viewer I wait until they are on dvd anyway so It makes no difference to me but to them it does other wise they'd just go straight to dvd or make it a tv movie or mini series.
This is a good talk but I think we might have hijacked this thread a lil lol.
The issue I have is that two big male characters who are popular have committed acts of rape now and it gets treated (within the context of the show) as though it has nary a tarnish on their heroic status.Yep. I felt like particularly in the second case they almost didn't realise what they had done (nb: not excusing it!) and now wish to pretend that it never happened.
Since he only spoke Dothraki, it's highly likely he thought from negotiations she was entering into this willingly.
Yeah, I just don't read it that way. The Dothraki are not exactly rape-averse in either the book or the series. They seem pretty clearly modelled on the Mongols and the Golden Horde, as Trike intimated above, and I really don't think active consent was big on their list of 'must-haves' when finding wives. But I don't want to push it - it just surprised me that this is clearly a common critique (the first person to mention it to me hasn't read the books or watched the series, and offered it up as reason not to watch) as it's not on the top of my personal list of flaws in the show!
I think you've convinced me. I hadn't put those two scenes together in that light before.
Martin's writing is a touch sexist. Either that or women actually do walk around thinking about their breast size and how said breasts move under the type of garment they're wearing.I'm not exactly sensitized to this sort of language as it's mostly background noise in our culture if you're a straight white male, but even I read that and went, "Wait a second..." He never talks about the men being cognizant of how their testicles are moving about in their pantaloons, but the breast thing is all over the text.
Well, now that you mention it.......yeah, no. Maybe in a locker room. Or when commiserating on finding the right bra or something. But not a regular thing by any stretch.
Rob wrote: "The idea of the books being spoiled by the TV show for me makes me pretty frustrated with Mr. Martin. Even if I avoid watching the show until (if?) the books come out, avoiding spoilers will be nearly impossible. ."Yeah. I get that he isn't our bitch and all that, but goodness. Every reader I know was careful not to spoil the twist of the first book for new readers, even when they'd read it over a decade ago. I log onto facebook the day after that episode airs, and it's everywhere. I'm not upset as much about the wait as I am the fact that I will not be able now to experience Martin's story the way he wants to tell it. The experience of fresh reading is now essentially impossible.
And damn, no new kingkiller either this year. I was hoping for at least word on one or the other.
I'm starting to think that Martin has already written Winds of Winter BUT is waiting until the last book is nearly done so he can bring them out like a year or two between them.
This is likely to be the last important thing he ever does, so it's not surprising he wants to get it right. It's just that fans don't have infinite patience.
Ben wrote: "Just found this. If you think Martin's taking too long for his next book..."This will forevermore be the go-to joke in response to "When is the next _____ coming out?!"
The reality seems a bit sadder: http://jezebel.com/be-suspicious-of-t...
I would rather a book was as good as it can be rather than released sooner. There are far too many examples of books being rushed to satisfy either publishers or public and I do not think anyone benefits in the end.I think Martin does well in that after 5 books many people still want to read the next volume whereas with many series' there has been such a marked quality shift that we are no longer interested in the next book in the series.
Also I do not think that the series finishing or not finishing takes away from the remarkable achievements and pleasures that can be found in the books and adaptations thereof. In TV we always have series' finish on cliffhangers for which there is no next season to resolve and more or less accept it. When and if the next books come out it will only be more great stuff to enjoy and there is no shortage of other great work to read in the meantime.
I disagree. Stories should have a beginning, middle and end, and leaving your devoted fans hanging is poor form.I also don't think viewers accept it when TV series are cancelled mid-story. There is often much gnashing of teeth and write-in campaigns to save cancelled shows, even to the point in recent years where we've had either TV movies or theatrical releases to tie up some of the loose ends. (Farscape, Firefly, Veronica Mars.)
It's also reflected in TV ratings in general. People have abandoned regular television in droves and one of the oft-cited quotes is, "Why should I bother when they're just going to cancel it anyway?"
If Martin doesn't finish (and that's how I'm betting, frankly), he will forever be tarred with that.
Also, rushing may hurt stories, but so does total lack of constraint. It's limitation that spurs creativity. Endless tinkering and rewriting is just as bad as no tinkering and rewriting.Martin needs to strive for Aristotelian virtue here.
Ben wrote: "I would rather a book was as good as it can be rather than released sooner. There are far too many examples of books being rushed to satisfy either publishers or public and I do not think anyone b..."I agree with you somewhat. But I find it interesting that the first three books were (I think we can all agree on this) the far superior ones in the series, and they were released only two years apart.
My guess is that Martin simply has lost motivation to write the series, and he has to force himself to continue.
Well said, Trike. I agree. If Martin doesn't finish and doesn't want anybody else to finish, that's the legacy he will be left with. He seems to have a general disdain for his fans which I don't like. He's not there to serve every whim of the fans but the bare minimum is finishing what yo I started and I think that's what the majority of his fans want.
Olivia wrote: "Alex wrote: "I'm starting to think that Martin has already written Winds of Winter BUT is waiting until the last book is nearly done so he can bring them out like a year or two between them."Oh A..."
Seriously?! Jesus...
There's an interesting bit of clarification in the comments of one of GRRM's recent posts. It's not much, but it means that 2015 isn't ruled out. At least, not by my reading.Also, I don't understand why people have to make judgment calls about Martin. The fact is we don't know why things are going the pace they are. To make claims that he's sick, or a sell-out, or hates fans, or whatever, is all speculation, and usually offensive.
There have been plenty of artists who leave unfinished work when they die, but I would be horrified if people claimed the deaths were malicious acts on their parts.
Buy the next book or don't. If enough people don't buy it, maybe he'll speed up or just stop writing. Somehow, I think things'll continue on much as they have.
As far as having a complete story in the end, I think Martin has been saying from the beginning that he not only intends to finish, but has an ending in mind.If something happens to keep him from finishing, it's like we have a handful of fascinating, intertwined Bildungsromans.
Ben wrote: "As far as having a complete story in the end, I think Martin has been saying from the beginning that he not only intends to finish, but has an ending in mind."
Dara wrote: "Well said, Trike. I agree. If Martin doesn't finish and doesn't want anybody else to finish, that's the legacy he will be left with. He seems to have a general disdain for his fans which I don't li..."General disdain for his fans? Really? I get being miffed at having to wait seemingly endless amounts of time for the next installment of a story (trust me I really do), but some people in this thread are projecting a lot of their negative emotions onto Martin. The things I have seen him being accused of in this thread are absurd. Especially because all of it is pulled out thin air.
I know for a fact that Martin is North Korean who hates bacon and once swatted a puppy with a rolled-up magazine.I wouldn't put anything past him.
I hate bacon. I hope you don't feel that bad about me. :)
Alice wrote: "My guess is that Martin simply has lost motivation to write the series, and he has to force himself to continue. "Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Or he has written himself into a corner, like David Gerrold did with the War Against the Cthorr series, and is having to do a massive rewrite.
In good news, on October 6, his Dunk & Egg stories will come as a part of a stand-alone illustrated book. http://grrm.livejournal.com/406858.html
After season 1 of the TV series I read book 1-3 and loved them and got bored early in book 4. I took two years off and just read 5 and loved it. The books are too long to read back to back to back. The pace slows dramatically from three to four so many readers fall off there.I think GRRM is amazing. I hate most scifi and fantasy but love the great stuff. Tolkien, Dune and Dark Tower. I may reread/finish Feast as my nextread, but regardless, I can't wait for book 6. I think he is on another level in this story, classic. Flawless, (although, it's aparent the Griff/connington story line was a late edition) He has world builders disease too. I am amazed people can read his books and not put him on a pedestal as I do. Im a fanboy apparently.
Scifi/fantasy fans love the genre so much they let a lot of poor writers off the hook. Not an insult. I think Star Wars is the greatest so I let Mark Hamil off the hook for his acting. But so much popular scifi is so bad to me.
If you love Star Wars, give Foundation and the Barsoom books a try. At the least you'll see where Lucas got the storyline.
Richardya wrote: "Scifi/fantasy fans love the genre so much they let a lot of poor writers off the hook. Not an insult. I think Star Wars is the greatest so I let Mark Hamil off the hook for his acting. But so much popular scifi is so bad to me. "You just said Hamill was a bad actor. Everything else you say is now suspect, because that is very, very wrong.
John (Taloni) wrote: "If you love Star Wars, give Foundation and the Barsoom books a try. At the least you'll see where Lucas got the storyline."Lucas got the basis for the story line from 'The Heroes Journey' ideology from his close friend Joseph Campbell.
So AndrewP, the fall of a galactic empire had nothing to do with it? The emperor's mind control powers have nothing to do with the Mule? Second Foundation and the Jedi have nothing in common? I tend to think that they do. I get the "hero's journey" thing, but that is generic. The setting and several major elements have significant similarities to Foundation.As for Barsoom I would think it obvious, but to take one clear example: Jabba's fort in ROTJ is straight out of a Jeddak's palace.
Trike wrote: "Richardya wrote: "Scifi/fantasy fans love the genre so much they let a lot of poor writers off the hook. Not an insult. I think Star Wars is the greatest so I let Mark Hamil off the hook for his ac..."When it comes to Star Wars I agree with Richardya. When it comes to Joker, I agree with Trike.
John (Taloni) wrote: "So AndrewP, the fall of a galactic empire had nothing to do with it? The emperor's mind control powers have nothing to do with the Mule? Second Foundation and the Jedi have nothing in common? I ten..."
Interesting, although I've read all the Foundation books by Asimov (not the sequels by others), I never put two and two together.
Although you forgot that, cinema-wise and over-arching story-wise, he's stealing from Akira Kurosawa. Both in the samurai inspired Vader and Storm Trooper designs, but also with the use of "Those Two Guys" - aka R2D2 and C3PO who are with a princess and don't even know it. Of course, "Those Two Guys" is at least as old as Shakespeare.
I want to offer this:Yoda is a fan favorite. People love him. Why? Because of Mark Hamill. Period.
Watch the Yoda scenes in Empire with the sound turned off. That puppet is HORRIBLE. You can see the limitations of its movements. In some shots you can actually see the armatures bending the cloth incorrectly, showing there's no arm in the sleeve.
Now listen just to what Yoda says. He's an idiot. All of his aphorisms are utter nonsense that only seem deep if you're 9 years old. Not to mention he has Fozzie Bear's voice.
He's a word salad-spouting muppet who is completely ridiculous on every level, but you believe that he is an actual creature.
And that's because Hamill freakin' COMMITS to those scenes. There's no one else on that set. Hamill believes that Yoda is a real creature and treats him as such, doing it so convincingly that audiences believe this gibberish-spouting lametastic collection of cloth and plastic is a real, sentient being.
Yes, Hamill is being a naive farmboy in Star Wars. Which is exactly what the script is calling for. He absolutely nails that part. And he does it again in Empire... until he has to experience failure and defeat. In fact, the only decent thing about Empire is Hamill's performance. You can tell Ford doesn't even want to be there and the rest of the script is just them winging it with horrendous dialogue throughout.
Hamill is the heart and soul of Empire. Without him there is no movie. There's certainly no Yoda Fan Club.
Trike wrote: "I want to offer this:Yoda is a fan favorite. People love him. Why? Because of Mark Hamill. Period.
Watch the Yoda scenes in Empire with the sound turned off. That puppet is HORRIBLE. You can see..."
Fozzie was my favorite muppet as a kid
It better be a great climax!
John (Taloni) wrote: "So AndrewP, the fall of a galactic empire had nothing to do with it? The emperor's mind control powers have nothing to do with the Mule? Second Foundation and the Jedi have nothing in common? I ten..."The Campbell reference is hardly generic. Star Wars follows the classic steps of The Hero With a Thousand Faces almost exactly. Incidentally, so does the Matrix.
See this table here:
http://www.moongadget.com/origins/myt...
I thought it was widely accepted that Lucas' primary sources were Hidden Fortress and Campbell? I've never heard a single other influence put forward, and, honestly, the only connections offered to Foundation in this thread seem to be pretty standard Generic Scifi Tropes
Rob S, you never heard of Barsoom in connection with Star Wars? As the story goes, Robert Zemeckis passed on doing a version of John Carter on the grounds that Lucas had already thoroughly mined the series.
As far as I know Lucas only brought Campbell up after the films became hits and he wanted justify himself as a serious filmmaker who was doing more than telling a silly story about disco-bots and magic powers. The idea that he was consciously modeling the first film on Campbell has as much basis in reality as the idea that he had the prequels planned out when he made the first film.In any case, Campbell's theories are reactionary, contain sexist assumptions, and are nowhere near as universal as he claimed.
I didn't hear anything about the Campbell-Lucas connection until after Jedi was released. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, just that no one was talking about it. It's possible Lucas had heard of it and then only retained the gist.When Lucas started specifically following the template of Campbell's monomyth, it ended up destroying the story. Making Anakin a virgin birth is straight out of Campbell, but it doesn't suit the Star Wars story. Everything that followed looks like Lucas used Campbell's work as a checklist. As we've seen, that's a really terrible idea.
Coruscant as city-planet is definitely based off Trantor-the-city-planet, but we don't see Coruscant on screen till Episode I (though the city-planet thing had shown up in the EU, of course).Wikipedia definitely talks about how Asimov in the '80s was claiming that his books had influenced Star Wars (dying Empire, mind powers, robots/droids), but I don't know if there's any acknowledgement from LucasFilm.
Wasn't Lucas originally interested in doing a Flash Gordon reboot?
Joseph wrote: "Wasn't Lucas originally interested in doing a Flash Gordon reboot?"That's what got him started. You can see it more in the first draft that was turned into a comic book last year.
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Hero With a Thousand Faces (other topics)Gardens of the Moon (other topics)
The Way of Kings (other topics)
