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Duplicate Death
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Duplicate Death March 2021 Chapters 11-20
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I enjoyed this one - Cynthia the spoiled daughter is truly awful, her mother isn’t much better, and the religious, self-righteous aunt completes the horrible trio poor Hemingway has to deal with. Quite entertaining!
Susan in NC wrote: "I enjoyed this one - Cynthia the spoiled daughter is truly awful, her mother isn’t much better, and the religious, self-righteous aunt completes the horrible trio poor Hemingway has to deal with. Q..."Yes, some seriously unlikeable characters in this one. I was relieved when Timothy, Jim Kane, Hemingway and Grant came along to balance it out a bit!
I like Jim Kane very much, but I didn't think there was any reason for him to be in this book. Jim and Pat getting the whole first chapter of the book made it seem like they were going to be important characters, but actually she's not in it at all, and he just tags along in Timothy's scenes.It seemed like a bit of awkward fan-service for people who remembered the characters from the first book.
Nick wrote: "I like Jim Kane very much, but I didn't think there was any reason for him to be in this book. Jim and Pat getting the whole first chapter of the book made it seem like they were going to be import..."True, I hadn’t thought of it that way...well, in Heyer’s defense, Jim’s dry and laconic humor is a good match for Hemingway’s banter, so gave an excuse to plug in some fun to some rather overwrought scenes (view spoiler)
sorry, thought we were in spoiler thread then saw chapters 11-20, plugged in spoiler tags...not sure if those are spoilers, but better to be on the safe side! Oh, nuts, just saw my first comment where I called C spoiled - oh, well.
Yes we have changed to the two thread format now, so everyone reads the second thread at their own risk!I finished last night, but will wait a couple of days to give the rest of you a chance to catch up.
when I first started liking Heyer's mysteries this one was one of my least favorites, because I found the characters mostly unlikeable. but it grew on me and on this reading I absolutely loved the skill with which she wrote. Those unlikeable people really came to life for me! the description of the card party and how Mrs. Haddinton "drove her guests upstairs" - what a great visual. and the juxtaposition of Timothy, nothing but amiable/polite/smart with Lord Guisborough, what a contrast. I didn't think bookending the novel with Jim Kane's family was superfluous as we need to understand Timothy's background and how they just want the best for him. It's understandable they are worried about his girlfriend as she is presented. the sulky heroine!
Jackie wrote: "when I first started liking Heyer's mysteries this one was one of my least favorites, because I found the characters mostly unlikeable. but it grew on me and on this reading I absolutely loved the ..."Great points, Jackie, I agree - these unlikeable characters really are skillfully drawn by Heyer. Mrs. H. “driving her guests upstairs”is very evocative- she’s like a very cranky and exacting sheepdog! She never misses anything, keeping an eye on everyone, biting at ankles (and throats) as needed...you can really sense the tension in her, this woman who (view spoiler)
Yes, amazing characters, the narrator really does them justice, from Cynthia’s flat, affected, sulky voice, to the sharp, steely edges of Mrs. H, and the strident tones of Mrs. Pickhill — even Nest, you can picture this bird like, restless little lady, exquisitely dressed in her expensive drawing room, hands fluttering endlessly as she fields Hemingway’s respectful, yet probing questions. Very skilled writing.
Even knowing who really did the murders doesn't mean I didn't suspect the others, like Lady Nest's husband - he really looked guilty! I will be interesting to hear if anyone who was a first time reader guessed "who dun it".
Susan in NC wrote: "See what I did there? Terrible Timothy to Spoiled Cynthia! Ah, alliteration!"😂 😂 😂
Jackie wrote: "Even knowing who really did the murders doesn't mean I didn't suspect the others, like Lady Nest's husband - he really looked guilty! I will be interesting to hear if anyone who was a first time r..."
Yes, he seemed like a daring, cool customer who would do it to protect his wife without turning a hair, then wing it off to France!
Jackie wrote: "I will be interesting to hear if anyone who was a first time reader guessed "who dun it"."First time reader, I did not guess "who dun it" until very near the end when the lovely seamstress lady (I forget her name) was babbling about how she knew the killers mother back in the day and as soon as she spelled out their marital status I put two and two together. Up until that point, he hadn't much figured as a suspect for me.
Nick wrote: "Jackie wrote: "I will be interesting to hear if anyone who was a first time reader guessed "who dun it"."First time reader, I did not guess "who dun it" until very near the end when the lovely se..."
That’s when I twigged too. I did wonder earlier (view spoiler)if she was up to her old tricks again. I should have realised then! I’d narrowed it down to (view spoiler)
Just finished. I enjoyed it, though it will never be one of my favorites.I recognized the seamstress's big clue when she first dropped it, as I had read another mystery which hinged on that drawback to being 'legitimated'. I just wasn't sure how many murders that character committed!
I thought GH handled the drug bits very realistically--an improvement over some of her earlier mysteries that featured that plot line. I cringed over all the 'pansy boy' comments. Typical for when the book was written, but not easy to read now.
One last thought--I hope Beulah abandons her middle name and reverts to being Francesca.
I agree, Barb in Maryland, it's hard to read the homosexual stereotypes and insults that didn't bother me at all decades ago. to a lesser extent, the politics and classism expressed bothered me as well. I remember in another Heyer someone was said to be "not out of the top drawer" and in this one, when Jim is talking about Timothy's intended Jim says his wife's family are "out of the right drawer". but, of course, Tim responds his intended is a lady/gentlewoman. Since he knows that instinctively (or because of her voice/manners/whatever) the fact that she has been in jail is just a detail. He can tell she isn't actually a criminal.
there are so many secondary characters is this book that are fun and memorable. Poor Miss Spennymoor and her facination with "celebrities" has some great lines:"more like a beanfest than a funeral" and
"because a horse DOES give a man tone, doesn't it?"
and Inspector Cathercott, who can't be bothered with Hemmingway's murder case when he has drug dealers to find.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "It is a fun story. The thing that most bothered me was that [spoilers removed]"Probably because she was dead and no prosecution was possible. It's done all the time I believe. Pick your battles. Don't risk a defamation lawsuit by the heirs "Can you prove it? She isn't here to defend herself!"
So I just bumped into Inspector Hemingway complaining about having a "homosexual" involved in the case. Took me out of enjoying the story much more than the 'pansy' remarks. I did not know that pansy was used as an insult for sexual preference, I thought it was saying a person was not brave in a mean way. I like Beulah, she has spirit. And Timothy seems to have turned out very much like his big brother!
The way the house is described, I am imaging a tall, skinny town type house with one room on each floor. Like this one for sale in London. jk
MaryL wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "It is a fun story. The thing that most bothered me was that [spoilers removed]"Probably because she was dead and no prosecution was possible. It's done all the time..."
I agree with Mary- not speaking ill of the dead and all, but mainly can’t definitely prove it, and sure not getting a confession!
Critterbee❇ wrote: "So I just bumped into Inspector Hemingway complaining about having a "homosexual" involved in the case. Took me out of enjoying the story much more than the 'pansy' remarks. I did not know that pan..."Yikes, makes me claustrophobic just looking at it! Talk about a decorating challenge! Can’t imagine how small the rooms must feel...
As for “pansy” - yes, that’s about the only slang term I can remember hearing old people using when I was a kid (1970s) to describe homosexuals. I didn’t know what it meant at the time, but remember the term - I thought it odd, because they were such beautiful, delicate-looking, yet resilient flowers, and old people seemed to roll their eyes in disgust when they said it...
MaryL wrote: "Probably because she was dead and no prosecution was possible. It's done all the time..."
That means that all the other suspects will remain under suspicion for the rest of their life though.
Critterbee❇ wrote: "So I just bumped into Inspector Hemingway complaining about having a "homosexual" involved in the case. Took me out of enjoying the story much more than the 'pansy' remarks. I did not know that pan..."This is the most open I remember GH ever being about homosexual characters although it is certainly very strongly implied in (view spoiler)
Like Susan, I also remember pansy being widely used in the 1970s for a gay man & for an effeminate man.
I've just gone off on a tangent & read up about LGBT rights in NZ. I'm sure I did know this, but while it was never a criminal offence for a woman to be lesbian over here, it was a criminal offence for a man to be gay. Just shameful that it was an offence in NZ until 1986! & their criminal records weren't expunged until 2018
Susan in NC wrote: "As for “pansy” - yes, that’s about the only slang term I can remember hearing old people using when I was a kid (1970s) to describe homosexuals. I didn’t know what it meant at the time, but remember the term - I thought it odd, because they were such beautiful, delicate-looking, yet resilient flowers, and old people seemed to roll their eyes in disgust when they said it..."Right? Like calling someone such a beautiful flower to be mean does not really make sense.
I am going to post a few more pics of the skinny house in Royal Escape!
Critterbee❇ wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "As for “pansy” - yes, that’s about the only slang term I can remember hearing old people using when I was a kid (1970s) to describe homosexuals. I didn’t know what it meant at t..."Yes! Looking forward to your pics!
I think 'pansy' was a general slang term for a homosexual man. Of course, if someone was homophobic they could say it with venom, but I don't think it was necessarily an insult.
Nick wrote: "I think 'pansy' was a general slang term for a homosexual man. Of course, if someone was homophobic they could say it with venom, but I don't think it was necessarily an insult."True, I thought it was used for a generally effeminate man, with the underlying implication they could be “one of them” - eek, dare not say it aloud! Strange, isn’t it! Heaven forbid a man not act like Conan the Barbarian or (insert macho National or fictional hero here)! Liking ballet or art or anything that doesn’t involve shooting or riding or rugby (or whatever other manly hobbies a proper Englishman of the day would pursue). In this character’s case, (view spoiler)
and Finished!I enjoyed that more this read through, felt it was a nice mystery with an unusual ending(view spoiler)
And I worry about (view spoiler)
I am going to make my prediction of who and why after reading up to the end of chapter 12 (view spoiler)
Susan in NC wrote: "Nick wrote: "I think 'pansy' was a general slang term for a homosexual man. Of course, if someone was homophobic they could say it with venom, but I don't think it was necessarily an insult."True..."
Growing up in an era when homosexuality was illegal, I always took 'pansy' as a term for a man who was effeminate, not necessarily homosexual.
Since 'homosexuals' then, just as 'gay' men today crossed all male incarnations, it always seemed a very specific description and used as such. Effeminate men have always existed but are not exclusively homosexual. The description of Justin on page one of TOS is a prime example. He is definitely described in such terms! I think the situation in the 1930s was definitely one where men who liked the arts, fashion etc would have been deemed as 'not manly', but I don't think that would automatically mean they thought he was homosexual. Just my two pennorth!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Nick wrote: "I think 'pansy' was a general slang term for a homosexual man. Of course, if someone was homophobic they could say it with venom, but I don't think it was necessari..."I agree, this is the distinction I always thought was being made with the term, it was more effeminate man, as opposed to homosexual.
Oh, and as our resident Scot, have you by chance listened to the audiobook, and can you advise whether her Celtic pronouncements as Sandy are good, or terrible?
I haven’t heard her (only the 5 minute sample on Audible where she doesn’t attempt a Scots accent!). I’m not impressed with her narration anyway, and I see several comments heavily criticising the accent. Scottish accents vary so much so it’s easy to get it wrong!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I haven’t heard her (only the 5 minute sample on Audible where she doesn’t attempt a Scots accent!). I’m not impressed with her narration anyway, and I see several comments heavily criticising the ..."Fair enough, and thank you for responding! But if the Scottish accent sounds almost Russian at times, is it fair to call that a failure?
Susan in NC wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I haven’t heard her (only the 5 minute sample on Audible where she doesn’t attempt a Scots accent!). I’m not impressed with her narration anyway, and I see several comme..."Absolutely yes! Scots shouldn't sound like Russian! A Highland accent in particular is soft and gentle with incredibly clear diction. I am going to look for some examples for you Susan!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I haven’t heard her (only the 5 minute sample on Audible where she doesn’t attempt a Scots accent!). I’m not impressed with her narration anyway, and..."Thank you!
Just finished chapter 13, and I had to pop in and say that I love the butler in this one. I kind of wish I'd started years ago collecting literary butlers. Here, I love the way her gets a stab in at Beulah by insisting he'll "just ascertain whether Madam has any messages for you." Poor, Beulah, she's not going to be allowed to escape. Of course, I know she has to be found out so she can be a suspect, but in terms of the story it's a clever way for him to be passive-agressive and get her in trouble with the mistress!
you're right about it being clever. I think I found a mistake Heyer made: The retired Superintendent Darliston that Hemmingway visits is called "Jim" (as well as "Super" and "Granddad" ) by Hemmingway but his wife calls him "Herbert".
I am astonished at the range of slang in this novel, some of it seems almost current (maybe only to someone who grew up decades ago?) but having that with a world of snooty butlers seems such an odd mix.
Susan wrote: "I am going to make my prediction of who and why after reading up to the end of chapter 12 [spoilers removed]"OK - so I got it half right! Just after I made that prediction, in chapter 13 I think it was (view spoiler)
I enjoyed the book. It wasn't perfect.
I also felt that the book did not need to be bookended by Jim and Pat and their children. I was far more interested in Timothy and would have preferred to have Timothy's parents, Adrian and ??(I cannot even remember her name now) as they were so entertaining in the earlier book.
I would have liked Beulah to be more developed. But I did enjoy the book and opted for the right murderer about 3/4 of the way through but couldn't have proved it.
First time reading DD and greatly enjoyed it. Characters were chiseled to a fine point, and the dialog simply sprinted across the pages. I did a lot of re-reading of certain passages, savoring this fine wine. Yes, I guessed the first murderer, but with the next twist I was thoroughly confused. I also guessed the compact loss. Favorite characters: Tim + Jim (such believable brothers), and Hemingway for his smack-down responses. Additionally I felt GH did a fabulous job imparting the post-war weariness of England balanced with the pride of commitment and sense of sacrifice, (certain foods were still hard to get, years after V-day (the tea shop scene)). A- for GH mysteries.
Like Barb in Maryland I was bothered by all the homophobic slurs. I remember "pansy" being used in the 80s and even into the 90s and it most definitely implied gay man. That's how it's being used in this instance. Hemmingway believes Butterwick is in love with Seton-Carew and jealous of Cynthia. I didn't care for this book at all. I didn't like any of the characters or the drugs, the smoking, the graphic description of murder. I did figure out Cynthia was doing cocaine pretty early when she was out all night and tired and said she'd feel better after a bath. Mm hmm. Her mother caught on at that moment too. Then the missing compact was a big clue. The seamstress dropping the final clue was obvious but I really thought it was Cynthia that killed her mother. No one knew when she left the house/where she was and she had the most motive: 1)her mother killed Dan cutting off her cocaine supply and 2)her mother refused to let her associate with Lance anymore and has denied the proposals of lots of men. Mrs. H was a real piece of work. I don't believe she ever loved Cynthia but only ever saw Cynthia as a means to her own social climbing aims.
I, too, hope Buelah abandons that awful name and goes back to Francesca. Francesca isn't foreign, it's beautiful. I didn't care for the anti-Italian prejudice against her.
Are the threads for Cotillion up yet? I can't seem to find them.
I liked this murder in the upper class spolied brats and all I was sure was one of Poultons. This one had me fooled.
What did you think of this title.
This is GH's final detective novel sadly. They didn't earn as much as her romances.