Plato Reading: Buddy Read

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

We have a group of members who plan to do some reading of Plato's works. Everyone is welcome to join in this multi-month discussion.

[Gaurav]

Can't wait. When do we start reading?

[Levi]

No one need feel obligated to read any particular work; just skip that one and pick up with the next.

Schedule, version 2:
Feb 15-21: Trial and Death I: Euthyphro (27p)
Feb 22-28: Trial and Death II: Apology (32p)
Mar 1-7: Trial and Death III: Crito (20p)
Mar 8-14: Trial and Death IV: Phaedo 57a-77b* (32p)
Mar 15-21: Trial and Death IV: Phaedo 77c-95e (32p)
Mar 22-31: Trial and Death IV: Phaedo 96a-118a (32p)
Apr 1-7: Catch-up break!
Apr 8-14: Catch-up break!
Apr 15-21: Meno 70a-86c (23p)
Apr 22-3o: Meno 86d-100b (22p)
May 1-7: Gorgias 447a-463a (27p)
May 8-14: Gorgias 463b-479e (28p)
May 15-21: Gorgias 480a-496d (27p)
May 22-31: Gorgias 496e-513c (27p)
Jun 1-7: Gorgias 513d-527e (27p)
Jun 8-14: Catch-up break!
Jun 15-21: Catch-up break!
Jun 22-30: Phaedrus 227a-239e (21p)
Jul 1-7: Phaedrus 240a-253c (22p)
Jul 8-14: Phaedrus 253d-266b (21p)
Jul 15-21: Phaedrus 266c-279c (22p)
Jul 22-31: Symposium 172a-198a (31p)
Aug 1-7: Symposium 198b-223d (31p)
Aug 8-14: Catch-up break!
Aug 15-21: Catch-up break!
**NOTE: two-week intervals after here.**
Aug 22 - Sep 7: The Republic, Book I (32p)
Sep 8 - Sep 20: The Republic, Book II (28p)
Sep 21 - Oct 7: The Republic, Book III (34p)
Oct 8 - Oct 20: The Republic, Book IV (30p)
Oct 21 - Nov 7: The Republic, Book V (36p)
Nov 8 - Nov 21: The Republic, Book VI (30p)
Nov 22 - Dec 7: The Republic, Book VII (27p)
Dec 8 - Dec 21: The Republic, Book VIII (30p)
Dec 22 - Jan 7: The Republic, Book IX (26p)
Jan 8 - Jan 21: The Republic, Book X (28p)

*These are the Stephanus Numbers, which many (but not all) translations have in the margins. They are split into five sections each (a-e). If I say “Crito page 18” that’s not necessarily the same as your Crito page 18, but if I say “Crito 22c” that should be the same as your Crito 22c regardless of which translation we are both using.

Here is the current list I’ve put together based on interest people have expressed:
- Trial and Death I: Euthyphro
- Trial and Death II: Apology
- Trial and Death III: Crito
- Trial and Death IV: Phaedo
- Meno
- Gorgias
- Phaedrus
- Symposium
- The Republic

If you want to read another dialogue, comment with the name, and if someone seconds it, I’ll add it.

Once we have the list, I’ll make a schedule based on us reading 20-30 pages per two weeks.

Here’s a list of dates:
- Make your nominations and seconds by 2/6, Saturday.
- On 2/7 I’ll post the list in its final order with a schedule.
- On 2/15 we start reading.

[Cynda]

February 15th is good date for me. I may start a day before or a day after. Good to have a goal to work toward. Thanks for setting this up Levi. I like reading some ancients every year.

[Nidhi]

I agree with the schedule and will read whatever is selected because I have not read anything by Plato yet, I have read Aristotle’s Ars Poetica and liked it, so I am curious about what Aristotle’s mentor has to teach us.

[Gaurav]

The 15th is great as a starting time. It will give readers time to get the books if they don't already have them.

[Wim]

Is it possible to give a bit more weight to his middle dialogues? Apology, and other early dialogues are most popular but do not reflect Plato's more mature thoughts.
I propose to include one or more dialogues like Protagoras, Gorgias, phaedrus
Also supporting books by A.E Taylor (routledge) or cambridge companion can be very useful

[Levi]

I second Gorgias, Phaedrus. Added to the list.

[Gaurav]

You fellas seem far more erudite on the subject than I am, so let me ask a question: Are the Hackett editions okay or should I look into other editions? If so, please tell me.

[Leni]

Avinash wrote: "You fellas seem far more erudite on the subject than I am, so let me ask a question: Are the Hackett editions okay or should I look into other editions? If so, please tell me."

Hackett is great. Penguin as well. If you really want to study Plato you'll want more than one translation (and a working knowledge of classical Greek). ;) But, you know, for our purposes here, go with Hackett or Penguin, or even Oxford Classics, whichever you can get your hands on. If you're looking to buy, see if you can use Amazon's "Look Inside" feature and read a page from each of those three editions and just see which one flows better for you.

[Gaurav]

Thanks for the info.

[Leni]

Ok, so we have the early dialogues which are mainly Plato showcasing Socrates and his trial, with Phaedo as the main eulogy.

We have Meno (most likely) a transitional dialogue, although probably written before Paedo, about virtue and whether it can be taught.
We have Gorgias - social criticism dealing with rhetoric and ethics, the nature of right and wrong.
We have Phaedrus about Love (and a bit about rhetoric and poets)
Then Symposium - also about Love, and also features Phaedrus. One theory is that Plato wrote Phaedrus first, wasn't entirely happy with it, and wrote Symposium. I don't know, I think Phaedrus is a literary masterpiece, but I look forward to comparing the two!

Then we have the Republic, which is as far as I know the first Utopia in literature. It's basically sci-fi. A massive thought experiment, complete with cosmology, used to explore what is just and right.

At this point we only need Philebus - about the pleasures of the mind vs the pleasures of the body - and then I believe we have all of the major explorations of philosophical doctrines covered. (Phaedo: Should we fear death? Meno/Gorgias: What is virtue/right&wrong? Republic: Is it better to be just? Phaedrus: What is the nature of love and whom should we love? and Philebus: What place should pleasure have in our lives?)

So for that reason I suggest we tack on Philebus if we can handle more Plato after we've fought our way through the Republic (I have read the Republic cover to cover twice, and certain parts of it multiple times, so I am clearly interested in it, but I still remember it as a bit of a slog.) That way we also have one of the "Late period" writings in our selection.

Do correct me if I got any of that wrong. I'm working mostly off memory here. And although I was a total Plato nerd in uni, it has been more years than I care to think about!

[Wim]

Hackett is really great and gives extra explanations

But plz consider also a companion book like I mentioned. Indeed as Leni mentioned the right interpretation of the original Greek is essential and can be interpreted differently.

[Wim]

Sounds great Leni. Impressive memory

[Leni]

Wim wrote: "Sounds great Leni. Impressive memory"

Thanks. There's one thing nagging at my mind though, about four dialogues being thematically linked in a circular way. I know Phaedrus and Symposium were two of them. And probably Gorgias. So you have Symposium: something and Love, Phaedrus - Love and Rhetoric, Gorgias - Rhetoric and... virtue? Truth? I guess if I find out what Symposium deals with secondary to Love, I might discover what the fourth one was.

[Lilly]

Leni wrote: "Ok, so we have the early dialogues which are mainly Plato showcasing Socrates and his trial, with Phaedo as the main eulogy.

We have Meno (most likely) a transitional dialogue, although probably w..."

As I see it you're basically considering Plato from the angle of ethics (except for republic) - although he does consider other topics as well; language is, for example, one of these topics, most notable in Kratylos, although also featured in other dialogues...

To align Republic with SF might be a bit too strong. His work is after all based on what he noted in various ancient societies, offering critique and guidance ... to what degree this work is to be considered utopian is still unclear ...

Editions:
I do not know about english editions of Plato, but would support Wim in his plea to go for bilingual editions if you are able to. or if not some critical edition either run by philologists or philosophers - they usually put more effort into using terminology to reflect in the translation Plato's varying choice in terminology in the original ...

[Wim]

Indeed:
“Phaedrus is commonly paired on the one hand with Gorgias and on the other with Symposium—with the former in sharing its principal theme, the nature and limitations of rhetoric, with the latter in containing speeches devoted to the nature and value of erotic love”

Need to solve the riddle about the fourth connected dialogue

[Wim]

Leni wrote: what Symposium deals with secondary to Love, I might discover what the fourth one was

Symposium: “focus here is also and especially on the adult male’s role as ethical and intellectual educator of the adolescent”

Is the fourth one then not the republic as this dialogue focuses on education also?

[Leni]

That could very well be, Wim. The Republic contains a lot of things, and it does seem to fit. But you'd think I'd remember that. And I have a feeling it was a shorter dialogue. Urk, this bugs me. Not that it's super important or anything, it's just that I can practically see the diagram in my head. It's like when you have a word at the tip of your tongue but it just won't come to you. lol

[Leni]

Lilly, oh yes, Kratylos is excellent from a philosophy of language perspective. But if I remember correctly it wasn't as much fun to read. XD
The seminar I attended on it was fun though. Taught jointly by a professor from the analytical branch and the continental branch of the Philosophy department, in a surprising show of bridge building. We read two later texts too, something by Herder and I forget who else. (To be fair, the two groups usually got along just fine. It was just rare to find a shared interest so they had a live and let publish attitude to each other. Now, Husserl Vs Heidegger devotees, that could get ugly! But I digress.)

[Levi]

Wow, thank you everyone for filling us in on so much re translations, different periods of Plato, how different dialogues relate to each other...this is awesome.

It sounds like people are on board with the dates, so I'll edit the top comment to reflect that.

[Lilly]

Leni wrote: "Lilly, oh yes, Kratylos is excellent from a philosophy of language perspective. But if I remember correctly it wasn't as much fun to read. XD
The seminar I attended on it was fun though. Taught jo..."

Well, that would mainly depend on your definition of fun :D
I generally quite like Kratylos, although I admit that does not extend to all of that work equally ... more the first half ...

I've heard about different parts of the philosophical spectre squabbling elsewhere ... we did not have the same distinctions for our chairs anyway - just one chair for analytical philosophy, one for ethics, one for practical ethics and one mainly concerned with the philosophy of religion. Small uni. - They used to squabble about administrative stuff, but have been in harmony for a decade now; I used to go to lots of joined seminars between them and also with other universities, great fun.
I never did a seminar on Herder. I'm not really into his times, I admit ... The most 'gruelling' thing I did was a seminar on Kant - I really hate Kant. But to study philosophy in Germany and to try and completely avoid him would have been kind of sacrillegious ... :D
Now I'm the one keeping up the digression ...

[Cynda]

Rhetoric more than philosophy is my thing. So we will have some variety in approaches.

I just pulled out my The Rhetorical Tradition: Readings from Classical Times to the Present (1990 edition) by Patricia Bizzell and Bruce Herzberg. This is just my book from grad school. There are other editions. Sometimes the older editions can be found at used bookstores. I have seen them on the clearance shelf for 1 and 2 USD, a nominal amount. In this text are useful discussions and the complete text of both

Gorgias which in part considers the value of rhetoric
and
Phaedrus which in part considers which kind of persuasion leads to knowledge.

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

Wim wrote: "Is it possible to give a bit more weight to his middle dialogues? Apology, and other early dialogues are most popular but do not reflect Plato's more mature thoughts.
I propose to include one or mo..."

Can you link to your recommended companion books?

[Wim]

The Cambridge Companion to Plato's Republic

Plato: The Man and His Work

[Wim]

Especially the second one by A.E. Taylor is a great companion book: clarification of each dialogue.

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

Thank you

[Carolien]

I've never read Plato and am not well read in the Greek classics at all. However, I have stumbled on many references to his work in reading and while studying law so this feels like something that I would like to tackle as there will be other people that can give guidance and who can point me to resources like Wim has done. Not sure I'm brave enough to tackle it, but thinking seriously about it.

[Leni]

Carolien wrote: "I've never read Plato and am not well read in the Greek classics at all. However, I have stumbled on many references to his work in reading and while studying law so this feels like something that ..."

Do join us! Plato's early work, which we are starting with, is very accessible. And after those you can see how you feel. It's not like you have to commit to the whole list.

[Cynda]

Carolien wrote: "I've never read Plato and am not well read in the Greek classics at all. However, I have stumbled on many references to his work in reading and while studying law so this feels like something that ..."

Carolien, rhetoric was developed as a way of resolving legal arguments. If you are studying or practicing law, the rhetoric of Plato will serve you. The basics of rhetoric will serve you.

Even with the rise of the internet, speciality dictionaries/handlists still help. I suggest Handlist of Rhetorical Terms by Richard A Lanham. I have been using my copy many years sometimes as I read ancient literature or a rhetorical analysis of an historical document.

[Lilly]

Wim wrote: "The Cambridge Companion to Plato's Republic

Plato: The Man and His Work"

This might also be interesting to you, Katy: The Oxford Handbook of Plato.
Sorry, many of the books I use are written in German.

[Lilly]

Carolien wrote: "I've never read Plato and am not well read in the Greek classics at all. However, I have stumbled on many references to his work in reading and while studying law so this feels like something that ..."

Yes, do join us!
I'm only partly participating myself, deciding on the go for which dialogues I find time ... as Leni said, you can just figure it out bye and bye ...

[Wim]

What I would also recommend as a general introduction to Plato is one of my all time favourite authors: coplestone. In his first tome of his extensive ‘History of philosophy’ he gives in over a hundred pages an intro to the man and his major ideas . So more profound than your average history. Refrrence: A History of Philosophy, Vol. 1: Greece and Rome, From the Pre-Socratics to Plotinus

[Carolien]

OK, I found a Hackett copy that I can understand and it comes with copious notes, so let's see how this goes. I have a suspicion that I will regret it more if I don't try at all.

I'll read the introduction in the meantime as it includes biographies of Socrates and Plato.

[Lilly]

Carolien wrote: "I'll read the introduction in the meantime as it includes biographies of Socrates and Plato."

Just keep in mind that the Socrates we are reading about will not be the historical Socrates, but a fictitious figure of Plato's work. Plato also uses other historical characters in his dialogues, that we can find out about, but some of those have complained/said laughing that they never had such conversations with Socrates. No matter what teachings the real Socrates might have given, those conversations we have are constructions by Plato.
This is to some degree also a matter of style.

But if you want to look at the historical aspects behind the material it can be helpful to read other authors simultaneously and compare the differences; see Apology of Socrates by Xenophon.

Sorry about shooting you with new aspects right at the start. Just wanted to pass on a warning our professors gave us at the beginning ...

[Carolien]

Lilly wrote: "Carolien wrote: "I'll read the introduction in the meantime as it includes biographies of Socrates and Plato."

Just keep in mind that the Socrates we are reading about will not be the historical S..."

Thank you so much. I'd rather know this at the start and can then prepare accordingly. I have a suspicion I will know a lot more about Greek literature at the end of this.

[Lilly]

You are welcome :) Glad you're in.

[Levi]

I am so enthused to be reading Plato with so many fellow-travelers. When I originally commented, I thought I might get one person interested in a buddy read. Nine people is staggering--and I mean that in the best way.

Here's the schedule I've come up with. I'm also editing this into my first comment at the top of the thread so it's easy to find.

Edit: please see the schedule at the top comment. I just want to maintain it in one place.

Schedule:
Feb 15-28: Trial and Death I: Euthyphro (27p)
Mar 1-15: Trial and Death II: Apology (32p)
Mar 16-31: Trial and Death III: Crito (20p)
Apr 1-15: Trial and Death IV: Phaedo 57a-77b* (32p)
Apr 16-30: Trial and Death IV: Phaedo 77c-95e (32p)
May 1-15: Trial and Death IV: Phaedo 96a-118a (32p)
May 16-31: Meno 70a-86c (23p)
Jun 1-15: Meno 86d-100b (22p)
Jun 16-30: Gorgias 447a-463a (27p)
Jul 1-15: Gorgias 463b-479e (28p)
Jul 16-31: Gorgias 480a-496d (27p)
Aug 1-15: Gorgias 496e-513c (27p)
Aug 16-31: Gorgias 513d-527e (27p)
Sep 1-15: Phaedrus 227a-239e (21p)
Sep 16-30: Phaedrus 240a-253c (22p)
Oct 1-15: Phaedrus 253d-266b (21p)
Oct 16-31: Phaedrus 266c-279c (22p)
Nov 1-15: Symposium 172a-198a (31p)
Nov 16-30: Symposium 198b-223d (31p)
Dec 1-15: The Republic, Book I (32p)
Dec 16-31: The Republic, Book II (28p)
Jan 1-15: The Republic, Book III (34p)
Jan 16-31: The Republic, Book IV (30p)
Feb 1-15: The Republic, Book V (36p)
Feb 16-28: The Republic, Book VI (30p)
Mar 1-15: The Republic, Book VII (27p)
Mar 16-31: The Republic, Book VIII (30p)
Apr 1-15: The Republic, Book IX (26p)
Apr 16-30: The Republic, Book X (28p)

*These are the Stephanus Numbers, which many (but not all) translations have in the margins. They are split into five sections each (a-e). If I say “Crito page 18” that’s not necessarily the same as your Crito page 18, but if I say “Crito 22c” that should be the same as your Crito 22c regardless of which translation we are both using.

I tried to split things up so we could kind of alternate between slower paces (closer to 20p) and longer paces (closer to 30p). Republic already has nicely defined divisions so I didn't want to mess with that. Since Phaedrus is one of the longer pieces shortly before Republic, I split it up into 4x21.5p sittings instead of 3x28.7p sittings to give us a reprieve before going into Republic. Symposium is short enough that it didn't seem worth splitting up into 3.

The number of pages I have estimated based on translations that I have handy, but obviously YMMV.

I'm open to suggestions/feedback. This is my first time leading anything like this.

[Cynda]

Thanks Levi for planning the reading for us. I have ordered The Last Days of Socrates: Euthyphro / The Apology / Crito / Phaedo. It will arrive in for our buddy read. Looks like a good opportunity to read about ethos/ethics in argumentation.
.

[Gaurav]

Thanks for setting this up Levi. As someone who doesn't have many real-life reading friends, I really appreciate this community.

[Gaurav]

Be advised: Hackett edition of The Trial and Death of Socrates doesn't include Phaedo entirely. It just has the death scene(114d-118a).

[Lilly]

Thanks, Levi :)
I'm a little dazzled by planning so far ahead - I guess noone really aims for reading a lot of Plato in one go :D
Personally I feel like we don't really need to fix it all, if we want to adjust the order or something a few months in, we can still do that.
I'm hoping I can stay on board for all of it, without life getting in the way too much.

Here's another question that I've been wondering about: As the project takes so long, should we really just post everything in the same thread? Could end up a little messy. Or sort it by individual works, in case anyone else wants to read something by Plato in the future?
Maybe Katy could advise us on this?

[Wim]

Great proposed schedule Levi.
Should we not halve the time for each part to 1 week so we get through it in 7 months?
20-30pages a week for Plato is not too much of a stretch in my opinion.

[Lilly]

@Wim:
As I argued before, it all depends on how much you want to glean from this read, whether you just want to barge through the text, or get all the subtle arguments. In your personal case, I suppose you have read a good deal of Plato already and might be comfortable with a faster pace; but what of the others? First time reading always needs more time. I have read a good deal of Plato myself, but there are dialogues that I have not read and thus will need more time, while I remember others as very complicated and feel that I will need as much time for a second read.
The early dialogues, of course, can be read more quickly than the later.

I would suggest that we just start with Levi's time frame and then adjust as we go.

[Levi]

Personally I would be all for reading at a faster pace, however since there were at least a couple people asking for the slower pace, I would want to see them chime in on that.

Here's a suggestion: what if we started off reading the Trial and Death of Socrates at a faster rate (40-60 pages per session instead of 20-30) since those are supposed to be easier reading than the rest? Thoughts?

Also I'm not sure if there are other works in our list that are easier reading, or if it's just the Trial and Death ones, so if someone can advise on that, let us know.

[Nidhi]

I am ok with the pace because there may be some reference books related to these topics which I can go through, I have already read Apology by Xenophon.

[Cynda]

I was one of those who asked for a slow pace. . . .Now I am thinking that we can read these sections on a weekly basis rather than on a bi-weekly basis. I do want to have time to read and to have a sense of accomplishment.. . . .Those who need to read slower can always post later.

[Wim]

Lilly wrote: "@Wim:
As I argued before, it all depends on how much you want to glean from this read, whether you just want to barge through the text, or get all the subtle arguments. In your personal case, I su..."
Lilly, look at it from another perspective: the republic takes in original scheme 5 months. For 300 pages. I don’t say it is easy but even halve the pace would still be 2.5 months which considering the structure & language & clear style in the dialogue should not be labelled as barging through the book.

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

Lilly wrote: "...This might also be interesting to you, Katy: [book:The Oxford Handbook of Plato|32..."

Thank you.

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

Cynda wrote: "Thanks Levi for planning the reading for us. I have ordered The Last Days of Socrates: Euthyphro / The Apology / Crito / Phaedo. It will arrive in for our buddy read. Looks like a goo..."

Thank you for the link, Cynda.

Others, are you willing to link the copies you plan on reading?