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The Picture of Dorian Gray
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The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde (Group Classics Read Feb/March '15)
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Charbel wrote: "I don't think Lord Henry represents evil. Having read the novel, I think he "talks the talk, but can't walk the walk" (couldn't think of another way of putting it). Another thought is Lord Henry an..."Oh I agree & Wilde pretty much says so at various points that Harry is 'all talk, no action'. I guess I imagine him more as the snake in the garden of Eden than the devil himself.
While I find the philosophy Lord Henry espouses terrible, I love his sarcastic way of speaking! I can see why Dorian chooses to listen to him rather than Basil, who is a bit prosy. Basil and Lord Henry do seem to represent the two ends of a spectrum, both in their philosophy and in their manner.
Mod
I was thinking the same Leslie, when I realized that, at least for our catechism, the snake in the garden of Eden IS the devil!
Still I don't think Wilde considered him so; I'm still convinced he is the more similar to himself of the whole book: dandy, reckless, but not deeply rotten as Oscar himself
I've been tending towards a thought: that each of Lord Henry, Basil, Dorian and the picture represents a part of Oscar Wilde's overall psyche. Lord Henry is the rational part which tends to be analytical and intellectual with a tint of cynicism; Basil is the intuitive and sentient part which is obsessed with appreciation of beauty and anything artistic; Dorian is his faculty for reverie and fantasy tainted with a streak of eccentricity, while the picture is his conscience. These four parts constantly interact with each other and Wilde tries to express this interaction through the novel.
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I do more or less agree. Not so schematically put, but generally write
Hi all,I am brand new here. Should I just start reading the book and then post my thoughts here? Do I still have time before the discussion ends?
I think so too, Alice. Wilde was a very multi-faceted person so I can certainly see this.Holly, you do and we leave the thread open after the end of the month so you can post anytime you finish.
I think this is open until the end of March, by the title of the thread.
Holly wrote: "Hi all,I am brand new here. Should I just start reading the book and then post my thoughts here? Do I still have time before the discussion ends?"
Yes, start reading :) There is still plenty of time as this runs until the end of March as Jean said. And we welcome comments even after the 'official' end date as well (for all the Group Reads and readalongs, I think)!
Mod
I'm waiting to hear what you think of it
Did you decide who you thought was most culpable, if anyone, in the end, Laura?I've finished now and posted my review. Here's a link. It's one of my long ones ;) There was a complicated back story to it, as we discussed, and lots of elements ... I barely touched the surface before getting cut off really :)
I am currently on chapter 11. And I need help I have read and listened to it and yet I don't understand why this chapter annoys me. It seems to me he is like any other person yet because of his beauty and his portrait he is overly examined in this chapter.
I will take a look at my copy to refresh my memory of this chapter, Free, then come back and respond.
Thank you. Shame I missed the group read because I don't know many people who have read this book.
I wrote a long comment which just got lost -- arggh!
Sorry about that I know how frustrating that can be. Well I finish the book earlier but sadly I don't really write reviews. I really don't think he was that bad. He got caught up in sin and because he didn't have to suffer all the ill effects and still had beauty which everyone praised him for he didn't really feel bad till he killed which honestly I found Basil to be a little annoying. It seems he never really got to know Dorian but was so in love with him, so he created a picture of what he thought Dorian was. I know everyone was saying that Basil represented the good, while Lord Henry represented evil. Honestly I disagree. I think each one represented infatuation. Basil is the lover that falls in love with our look and our Innocence, creating a perfect illusion of who we are. In order to keep that illusion they never get too close so they can never met the real person. Henry is the one that may like our looks but is more intrigued by who they see so they get to know who we are. Because he knew him he stayed in his life and was his friend and was not as judgmental when he did wrong which all humans must err at some point. I can understand the emotions that drove Dorian to kill Basil. Not only was he judging him for what he heard but Dorian partially blamed him for what happened.
I have just reread Chap. XI -- have you read the whole book or is this as far as you have gotten?I can see why this chapter might annoy as Wilde goes on a tad too much (in my opinion) about some of Dorian's activities (hobbies?) such as the 2 pages about jewels or the 3½ on embroderies & vestments!
Despite that though, I think that this is an important chapter in the book as it contains Dorian's justification of his way of life. So he might be overly examined in this chapter but for a purpose. Dorian has decided to live a life whose "aim, indeed, was to be experience itself, and not the fruit of experience, sweet or bitter as that might be." The tragedy, I believe, is not this aim so much as the types of experiences Dorian chooses. Because of the portrait, he feels free to select degrading experiences (as the effects will show on the portrait and not himself) but this chapter gives the reader a look at some of the other kinds of activities Dorian undertakes in the pursuit of a life of the senses.
Does that help you at all?
Mod
I think it's true that it's really an infatuation with both of them Free - they were attracted to the surface things first. I do think though that Henry is a horrifyingly bad influence on Dorian. He's complete amoral. Dorian was pretty darn bad by the end - he doesn't seem to have a great deal of empathy for any of the people he hurts, at least not any real, lasting empathy.
@ Leslie Yes I did finish the book. @Greg maybe that why he tries to kill the portrait when he tries to reform. He feels like even though he is trying to be good he can't feel it in his heart. And blames the portrait. Instead of taking the blame for things he finds other things or people to excuse his actions.
@ Greg. While he could have been a bad influence. It's more interesting to me that was the influence he choose. He met Basil first but distanced himself from him soon after Basil's confession. In contrast he remained Lord Henry's very close friend. He choose.
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@Greg maybe that why he tries to kill the portrait when he tries to reform. He feels like even though he is trying to be good he can't feel it in his heart. And blames the portrait. Instead of taking the blame for things he finds other things or people to excuse his actions. ..."
I definitely agree with this Free - I think that's exactly right.
Greg wrote: "I do think though that Henry is a horrifyingly bad influence on Dorian. He's complete amoral..."Interesting! I agree that Lord Henry is a terrible influence on Dorian but I viewed him as more hypocritical than amoral -- his amoral statements always struck me as a pose, said for effect. It is too bad Dorian took him seriously!
@ Leslie but I think that how life is the listener always believes what the storyteller is saying.
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Interesting! I agree that Lord Henry is a terrible influence on Dorian but I viewed hi..."
That's true Leslie - it's so hard (impossible) to tell when Lord Henry is being serious. So much of what he says is witticisms; it's impossible to know what's underneath. It could be that young Dorian was just too earnest at heart to understand him properly. But he does give Dorian some spectacularly bad advice about the girl from the theater that Dorian liked, that's for sure.
I didn't care much for Lord Henry. At least Basil did seem to have some legitimate feelings for the boy and some remorse. Then again, I tend to lean toward the 'too earnest' side too; so maybe I'm predisposed to misunderstand Lord Henry too. :)
I agree with Leslie that Lord Henry is more of a cynical guy than amoral. Basil Howard said this to Lord Henry: "'You never say a moral thing, and you never do a wrong thing. Your cynicism is simply a pose.'"I think the key message of the novel is that while one is free to make whatever life choices that one likes, ultimately there's no escaping one's conscience.
Required reading in school, I found this story to be one I could get through easily. I tried to watch the movie, and it fell horribly flat.
Leslie wrote: "My audiobook has 20 chapters. I think that this is the only version I have read.
@Laura -- I was listening to the first chapter or two and it occurred to me that Lord Henry might be a devil figur..."
I don't think he is so evil; a temptor definitly, but not a devil