World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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What do you think about news reporting in the US or wherever you are?
Nik wrote: "Listen, nobody anticipated that well trained and much better equipped Afghan army would fold with virtually no resistance."Except that the Intelligence agencies did.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/us...
J. wrote: "Nik wrote: "Listen, nobody anticipated that well trained and much better equipped Afghan army would fold with virtually no resistance."Except that the Intelligence agencies did.
https://www.nyti..."
The article is guarded by a paywall, but I get it. Intel is always btw a hammer and an anvil. It's never certain. You act upon it - can be a mistake. You disregard it - can be a mistake too
Historically, that seats Biden in the company of Gamelin. Not a praiseworthy accomplishment.
Nik wrote: "Listen, nobody anticipated that well trained and much better equipped Afghan army would fold with virtually no resistance. Apparently they didn't have enough reason to fight for"And why would a soldier fight for someone who refused to pay them for six months? The training and equipment are assets that can be sold to the Taliban. Those guys are probably still soldiers, but they are alive and likely to stay that way. And if you could not foresee that as a probability, then you should not be a General because you simply do not understand morale, which is a major contributor to any battle.
Ian wrote: "Nik wrote: "Listen, nobody anticipated that well trained and much better equipped Afghan army would fold with virtually no resistance. Apparently they didn't have enough reason to fight for"And w..."
The only reason I can personally think of for a soldier to fight the enemy without being paid would perhaps be to prevent said enemy from winning the war and imposing their beliefs and demands upon those conquered.
There were thousands of Confederate soldiers who continued to fight for years without pay during the American Civil War (1861 - 1865) who could no doubt provide a more impressive and moving response to your question if they were still alive.
There were also the Japanese soldiers who remained at their posts for decades after WWII.
The Confederate soldiers were fighting to protect their ranches/plantations, and they probably feared very bad treatment by the Union. I gather at the end of the war some took up banditry. The Japanese, from what I gather, didn't even know the war was over or were too humiliated to go home. Many committed suicide rather than be a POW.The Taliban promised them safety and they seem to have kept their word on that. Why die to protect some corrupt sod's wealth?
Ian wrote: "The Confederate soldiers were fighting to protect their ranches/plantations, and they probably feared very bad treatment by the Union. I gather at the end of the war some took up banditry. The Japa..."During the 19th. Century, the vast majority of Southeners owned neither a plantation nor a ranch. Most farmed small plots of land which they did not own in exchange for a portion of the crops they raised. Their lifestyle provided just enough for the basics.
The Taliban base their governing philosophy upon a strict interpretation of Islam, placing an emphasis upon literal interpretations of Shiria law. The Quran empasizes male dominance and strict, ultra-conservative treatment and expected subservient behavior of women. Those they govern will be guaranteed personal safety only if they submit to the philosophy and rules established and enforced, often brutally by the Taliban.
From my point of view, the US government leans towards a culture of "sacralization" of a political system that Biden is trying to implement. Through its policies for the social conversion of North American society.
Just to clarify, Jim, I think the Taliban are a bunch of thugs justifying their actions by a fanatical adherence to a medieval version of religion. However, the common soldier was never fighting for enlightenment; he was fighting for a a corrupt government. When the big bosses flee to save themselves and spend their loot, why fight? If they refused to pay you, why do you owe them to protect their loot? Added to which, in twenty years the side you were fighting for had made no progress and the most capable (and the air support) was leaving and leaving so fast they left their main base (Bagram) sneaking away in the middle of the night and did not even tell the Afghans on your side. Surely that gives the message that your side is losing. If loss is inevitable.why not take whatever chance you can to stay alive.Fair enough, Jim, mjy knowledge of the Confederate states is weak. I assume, then, they kept fighting for something - maybe in =their eyes they had no alternative option. Recall the German soldier kept fighting, but also recall there were stories of the Allies simply shooting surrendering Germans because they did not have the time to be bogged down with prisoners. That only has to happen once, or be told, even if untrue, for a soldier to keep fighting. He is n ow fighting to stay alive. The Taliban promised to leave soldiers stay alive if they surrendered then. With a one-off option, and knowledge of the situation, surrendering was probably the only sensible option.
Ian wrote: "Just to clarify, Jim, I think the Taliban are a bunch of thugs justifying their actions by a fanatical adherence to a medieval version of religion. However, the common soldier was never fighting fo..."Ian,
Horrific conduct from both sides during every war is well documented. Once a firefight ensues, primitive instinct, enhanced by intense physical and psychological training, kicks in.
Most veterans will admit that, during the first couple of months of a combat tour, you do what you do because you have to. After that, more often than not, you do what you do because you want to. I am not saying it is right or justified, I am just saying it happens.
No one who personally experiences the horrors of combat is ever the same afterwards. My personal theory is that, when the last shot is fired, the peace treaties are signed, and a war is officially declared over, there are no winners and no losers, only survivors.
Jim, agreed with one difference. Soldiers usually fight because they believe in what they are fighting for. The Germans may not have been Nazis (although many were) but they did believe in the Fatherland. The Afghans were at best there to support a foreign occupation or a corrupt lot of bosses. (No, the US was not occupying, but to the Afghans, they might as well have been, having been there for 20 years..) The Afghans that gave up were not cowards; it was more as if they simply did not believe in what they were nominally supposed to be fighting for.Why not? The Afghan government had not made a sufficient impression and I suspect the US soldiers kept to themselves. They were not committed.
Biden, Commander in Chief of armed forces, with whom the buck stops, screwed up our withdrawal from Afghanistan. He disrespected our allies. And instead of keeping air bases open and defended by troops, he closed our embassy, withdrew our troops and left our enemy, the Taliban, in control of our withdrawal at one civilian air port. He left Americans and supporters and intelligence and armaments behind. Then to show he wasn't a wimp, he had a civilian aid worker and 7 children killed in a drone strike. There's no explanation other than that he's incompetent.
A review of the comments within this discussion reveals that the various opinions and conjecture regarding the military/security decisions and tactics implementated and executed by the United States in Afganistan are based primariarly upon four very different and often opposing perspectives: philosophical, academic, political, and actual military/combat experience.As with all major world events, the truth regarding the decision making influences, military activity, and plan execution will eventually be revealed, but probably not for years.
I respect and seriously consider all viewpoints and have enjoyed participating in the discussion. However, I have no more to contribute. Time will tell which opinions and evaluations prove correct.
Nik wrote: "Listen, nobody anticipated that well trained and much better equipped Afghan army would fold with virtually no resistance. Apparently they didn't have enough reason to fight for"No they knew and said they did not. They were told by their own people. It might be a surprise to the top people, but no the near top people.
Nik wrote: "Listen, nobody anticipated that well trained and much better equipped Afghan army would fold with virtually no resistance. Apparently they didn't have enough reason to fight for"Is the NYT report posted above? In it, it described that the Afghan troops were ready and willing to to fight against the Taliban, but it was their commanders who didn't want to fight. And that left the rank-and-file demoralized and lost.
Wow, look at the politically aligned disparity in US trust of media.REF: Gallup: https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/a...
Graeme wrote: "Wow, look at the politically aligned disparity in US trust of media.REF: Gallup: https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/a..."
I amazed that trust in media is that high. Apparently, a lot of Dems have been guzzling the Kool-Ade.
Which tells you which side is being told what they want to hear.
J. wrote: "Which tells you which side is being told what they want to hear."Indeed. And also the direction and (part thereof) rationale of censorship.
Most importantly, look at the independents. They are the swing voters. That is a bad omen for the Democrats.
Papaphilly wrote: "Most importantly, look at the independents. They are the swing voters. That is a bad omen for the Democrats."The polls are shocking for the mid-terms... Especially with a razor thin majority in the senate and the house.
Papaphilly wrote: "Most importantly, look at the independents. They are the swing voters. That is a bad omen for the Democrats."There will be a test of that statement in a few weeks.
Terry McAuliffe Has a Slim Poll Lead Over Glenn Youngkin in Virginia Governor's Race
https://www.newsweek.com/terry-mcauli...
Jim wrote: "A review of the comments within this discussion reveals that the various opinions and conjecture regarding the military/security decisions and tactics implementated and executed by the United State..."I don't see how having the Taliban in charge of who got into the airport can be interpreted as anything but a failure in planning.
Nik wrote: "Listen, nobody anticipated that well trained and much better equipped Afghan army would fold with virtually no resistance. Apparently they didn't have enough reason to fight for"Nik, when the U.S. withdrew from their air bases and withdrew all troops, when there was no air support to back them up, who can blame the Afghan army for deserting? They were left hanging by the U.S. and knew their ass was cooked. This from pro-Biden CNN (a liberal news organization):
"Some Afghan soldiers told CNN they only found out the Americans were leaving that very day. And Afghan officials accompanying CNN on a tour of Bagram on Monday confessed they were only then getting access to much of the base and working out what had been left behind.
One senior officer said he was notified last Thursday that his forces had less than 24 hours to secure the perimeter of the base.
US intelligence services, military commanders and members of Congress have all warned that the Afghan government won't be able to stand up to the Taliban without the backing of American firepower. The Taliban are already moving rapidly to take over districts in the northern parts of Afghanistan, leading US military commahttps://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/politi... to raise the prospect of a civil war once US troops are gone."
Scout, according to a TV clip I saw, the senior officer of the Afghans at Bagram only found out the Americans had gone when he turned up and found the place empty. The Americans couldn't even be bothered to warn the soldiers in advanced so they could plan what they would do next. That is hardly an incentive to fight on.
Right. We left them in the lurch. They did the smart thing, not the cowardly thing, as Joe would have us believe. What do you think, Nik?
Scout wrote: "Right. We left them in the lurch. They did the smart thing, not the cowardly thing, as Joe would have us believe. What do you think, Nik?"
Yes, I think it's a huge failure and a very bad signal to both allies and adversaries. The goal to disengage from Afghanistan was sound, the performance - disastrous
Again most of the concentration has been on the collapse in and around Kabul whilst ignoring the large swathes of Afghanistan that were already under Taliban control long before. Likewise the evacuation only from Kabul having already given up bases and equipment elsewhere.This was a comprehensive military failure on NATO and other allies long before final capitulation. The fact that Biden (and his administration and advisors and military leaders) completely failed in last few months only added to disastrous policies before.
This goes right back to invading Iraq thus taking eye off ball in Afghanistan for several years. Similarity with bombing Cambodia and Laos whilst North Vietnamese infiltrate South should not be forgotten but will.
I disagree with the military failure earlier. In my opinion, the real problem that GWB had no idea what to do once his military established some control. Same in Iraq. As an invader, he had about three months to establish whatever to ensure his overall objective was realized, but he did not have an overall objective other than getting his military there. The US did not achieve anything because it did not have a defined workable strategy with a clear objective. The following Presidents were presented with a mess and had no idea what to do next except try for military control. Biden alone shone by having a clear objective; unfortunately that was followed by abysmal execution.
Trump declared he wanted out too - but was somehow stymied.
Presidents are supposed to control the military. He didn't want it badly enough.
Trump negotiated a withdrawal, contingent upon the Taliban and Afghan government meeting certain requirements. If all the requirements were met, and Trump had been reelected, the primary withdrawal would have been completed this past May. The US would have left some special forces, some techs, and most importantly maintained the CAP. In fairness, the Taliban had ceased attacks on NATO troops. And talks between the Taliban and Afghan government had been scheduled.Then Uncle Joe decided to throw out the agreement and just make a run for it...
An interesting example of gas lighting by a reporter for her listeners.The Crowd Chants ... '[Insert Expletive] Joe Biden.'
She says 'Lets Go Brandon.'
Now a viral thing in the US.
REF: (RT via Bitchute, approx. 2 minutes, profanity warning): https://www.bitchute.com/video/hfBmmB...
Viral Merchandise T-Shirts ... : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=let%27s+go+...
Ian wrote: "Prospects seem grim for a second term!"It also seems the prospects are grim for integrity in journalism.
Graeme wrote: "Ian wrote: "Prospects seem grim for a second term!"It also seems the prospects are grim for integrity in journalism."
Not so much prospects; the problem is here already with journalism
For me personally, the most effective method of obtaining unbiased news is by merely accessing the Associated Press wires, the originating source of raw news utilized by the vast majority of newspaper reporters, TV programs, and Radio programs.Since they contain no commentary or analysis the articles are usually very brief and extremely dull. Only the original source, basic facts, and statistics are revealed. The upside is there is no commentary, personal opinion, or subjective analysis. It is up to the reader to evaluate and analyse the content to arrive at their own conclusion or interpretation.
Jim wrote: "For me personally, the most effective method of obtaining unbiased news is by merely accessing the Associated Press wires, the originating source of raw news utilized by the vast majority of newspa..."Interesting, Jim. Do you have a link to share?
Graeme wrote: "Jim wrote: "For me personally, the most effective method of obtaining unbiased news is by merely accessing the Associated Press wires, the originating source of raw news utilized by the vast majori..."Graeme,
Xfiinity (Comcast) is the commercial provider for my cable TV, internet, WiFi, home & cell phone service. I access Xfinity Stream, then click onto My Xfinity and then Read News. Unforunately that is the extent of my tech. savvy which I must confess is extremely limited. I apologize in advance if this is no help.
Graeme wrote: "An interesting example of gas lighting by a reporter for her listeners.
The Crowd Chants ... '[Insert Expletive] Joe Biden.'
She says 'Lets Go Brandon.'
Now a viral thing in the US.
REF: (RT via..."
Initially, I found this hilarious but then thought about the absurdity that this woman is a journalist in the world's leading democracy. Is she stupid or does she just have no shame?
Reminds me of the nazi radio commentator in Escape to Victory who turned up the volume of applause when Germany scored a goal. Don't know if anyone can find that on YouTube lol?
The Crowd Chants ... '[Insert Expletive] Joe Biden.'
She says 'Lets Go Brandon.'
Now a viral thing in the US.
REF: (RT via..."
Initially, I found this hilarious but then thought about the absurdity that this woman is a journalist in the world's leading democracy. Is she stupid or does she just have no shame?
Reminds me of the nazi radio commentator in Escape to Victory who turned up the volume of applause when Germany scored a goal. Don't know if anyone can find that on YouTube lol?
Beau, there is such a long distance between journalism and propaganda.
Thanks, Jim.Got it. I'd need to find another method.
Beau wrote: "Graeme wrote: "An interesting example of gas lighting by a reporter for her listeners.The Crowd Chants ... '[Insert Expletive] Joe Biden.'
She says 'Lets Go Brandon.'
Now a viral thing in the US..."
Part of it is that they were using the word, "F***". The the pearl clutchers, and therefore the FCC, lose their minds over that.
Hilarious debate between news outlets online re CNN showing Joe Rogan's podcast about Ivermectin. Accusations that they yellowed his face to make him appear ill lol! Pictures look like they did but MSM are denying it. Come on, you just know it's true. Ha ha, the cultists have completely lost it!
Graeme wrote: "Thanks, Jim.Got it. I'd need to find another method."
If you do, please let us know. I'd love to have access to what's going on before the outlets get hold of it.
Apparently, it's about 5 years' old but I saw a great quote from Denzil Washington today:
'If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you do read it, you're misinformed.'
'If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you do read it, you're misinformed.'
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No doubt, as you point out, the commanding general probably did know and understand the situation. Unfortunately, generals do not have as much control over stategy and implementation as many believe.
Military leaders in the United States and many other nations are obliged to obey and execute orders from their Commander & Chief. All too often, that Commander & Chief is a politician who never personally served in the military. The few who have, seldom personally have actually experienced combat. Their ego all too ofen leads them to believe that they and their civilian advisors know better and are better able to see 'the big picture' than their advisors in uniform.
Military personnel know and understand this. Thus the adage "Our's not to reason why. Our's but to do and die!"