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A Brief History of Seven Killings
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Buddy Read for A Brief History of Seven Killings - there will be spoilers!
Woohoo! I am so excited! Since this is such a chonker, and Marlon James is known to be a polarizing author, it is pretty lucky to get someone to agree to buddy read for this, so I am as pleased as punch.
We'll see how I feel when the book is over.
Was your friend using the urban dictionary for Jamaican slang?
That is good to know. I'll keep that app open while I read 👍🏼
Yes, for all the slang. She said it eventually becomes familiar. It won the Booker - of course it is polarizing!
My friend really liked it. I actually am pretty excited to read it.
I have officially started reading it. I already know this is going to be an adventure.
Me too! I am through the intro and into the first chapter. Since I read Black Leopard Red Wolf I know what to expect in terms of graphic violence, not to say he will always have graphic violence in EVERY book, but there was some early on which could've been a shock. Except at the same time, I am not necessarily put off by violence in books. Feels like it might be a wild ride!
Meli wrote: "Me too! I am through the intro and into the first chapter. Since I read Black Leopard Red Wolf I know what to expect in terms of graphic violence, not to say he will always have graphic violence i..."
Yeah! Graphic violence in books rarely bothers me. I read murder mysteries and thrillers after all. And Game of Thrones, 🤣. I mean the Red Wedding alone....
I am up to the Nina Burgess chapter. Astonishing how well he captures a different, dramatically different, voice for each of these chapters. It also reads fast.
This sounds really good-however I cannot get to it this month. I did hesitantly add it but James dialogue in Black Leopard had me throwing it against the wall....in any event I added it, and we shall see what the verdict is here
Theresa wrote: "Yeah! Graphic violence in books rarely bothers me. I read murder mysteries and thrillers after all. And Game of Thrones, 🤣. I mean the Red Wedding alone....I am up to the Nina Burgess chapter. Astonishing how well he captures a different, dramatically different, voice for each of these chapters. It also reads fast."
Same, I love horror and thrillers and serial killer documentaries so I am usually game.
Damn, you are already breezing past me! We will see what I can accomplish this weekend.
Joanne wrote: "This sounds really good-however I cannot get to it this month. I did hesitantly add it but James dialogue in Black Leopard had me throwing it against the wall....in any event I added it, and we sha..."
Yeah, I totally understand. It is a freakin chonker! And so was BLRW, which I was one of the few who was a fan 😂 James is my forever literary crush, I love him so much.
Joanne wrote: "This sounds really good-however I cannot get to it this month. I did hesitantly add it but James dialogue in Black Leopard had me throwing it against the wall....in any event I added it, and we sha..."I'm finding James a totally different experience - this is the first of his work I am reading. But I am a pretty game reader, and I don't give up easily. I also at this point find this easy to read a bit at a time. I also don't mind if I find myself looking up things - like flipping back to the cast of characters to figure out who I'm 'listening' to in a particular chapter I'm reading. I also have made a point of checking some slang in the Urban Dictionary - and finding what I thought it meant is different than what it ends up meaning - not that it affects the reading experience much.
One thing I notice: I'm hearing the 'voice' of the narrator of each chapter in my head as I read - with different accents. It's helping me understand what the slang means too.
I'm also not fussing about keeping track of much or knowing where/when action is occuring. I'm just letting it flow and I think that is going to be the right way to attack this at least initially.
I plan to do some reading of it this weekend. I'm alternating with lighter reads.
I already forgot about the list of characters at the front! I haven't had to look up any slang yet, but it is quite possible I misinterpreted something.
The character's voice so far are coming through very naturally in my head, which is great. But I am wondering if some of that is becoming a better reader. At the same time, James is a really vivid writer, I think.
Same reading style as you - I am not gonna fuss too much about remembering all the details. I find that serves me better in enjoying the journey.
Meli wrote: "I already forgot about the list of characters at the front! I haven't had to look up any slang yet, but it is quite possible I misinterpreted something.
The character's voice so far are coming ..."
I bookmark casts of characters, maps, etc. in books because I do refer to them frequently and it is easier finding tbem.
"I bookmark casts of characters, maps, etc. in books because I do refer to them frequently same sis'ta
I am at the 100 page mark and I wanted to check in. This book really makes me want to learn more about Jamaican history. Since my husband is into Jamaican music he has read a couple books about Jamaican music that are inexplicably tied into politics so I've been asking him some questions.
I will also say, this story is really sad :(
The interludes with our gang members is terribly tragic.
But there would be no other logical tone for this period in Jamaican history to be at all historically accurate.
I'm intrigued, and interested to see in what ways all these threads will be tangled up with each other.
I am now on page 121 - just at the beginning of the 2nd section, Ambush in the Night. I need to step up the reading, make sure I do a certain amount during the day so it's not bedtime before I get to my book. This is NOT a book I can read before bed! My sleep is bad enough!So sad, so painful in so very many ways. Yet, what else can it be if it is going to present any semblance of the period? I too know little about Jamaican history. Google is my friend although what I am reading is still pretty surface. However, NYC at that time was also ruled by gangs, the South Bronx a war zone not unlike Rema as described in this book, in an economic downturn - in fact much of the world was undergoing an economic downturn. I am able thus to pick up on much of the interplay happening.
Something else to remember is that Jamaica became an independent country only in 1962 - 15 years before the events we are reading. Initially there was much stability and prosperity, but not for Jamaican blacks. The ghettos were worsening, gangs were rising, drugs were becoming common currancy. The racial and economic divide increased dramatically. As the global economy failed, so did Jamaica's, including depletion of a mineral resource that caused much of the boom. That led to PNP taking over the government, and 1976 is when the election that will either solidify their control or hand it back to JLP occurs.
I find the similarities to the US at that time and now compelling.
So what else can I add? Well Bill Adler. Now I was quite stunned to see him appear. Why? Besides the whole role of the CIA in Jamaica gang wars which was news to me, I came across Bill Adler in a memoir I read 2 or 3 years ago. In Spies in the Family: An American Spymaster, His Russian Crown Jewel, and the Friendship That Helped End the Cold War, you learn a great deal about how rogue agent Bill Adler published this book that outed many operatives and led to many deaths not just of those operatives but also of the foreign nationals that provided them with critical information, most especially Russian ones. Adler claimed all these noble reasons for doing what he did but the truth was he was a pissed off agent who sought revenge and didn't care how many died as a result -- and a lot did. Or so it seems to me. Transparency, to use a contemporary term I loathe, does not work in the world of intelligence. That is the background to that telephone conversation DiFlorio has with Adler around page 97.
Also was curious about the bird - a humming bird - on the cover of my edition of the book - and also appearing in the book. It's the Doctorbird, and a type of humming bird that only exists in Jamaica and thus is why it is the Natoinal Bird of Jamaica. Here's some interesting background: https://www.jamaica-land-we-love.com/.... I find several things interesting about the bird's description: it's shimmering so that it appears to be changing appearance, that the males can fly backwards, it's a survivor.
One more thing I'm finding interesting - how the Singer a/k/a Marley is being portrayed, the suspicion and resentment directed towards him. And how reggae is almost an underground music in Jamaica. Because it is from the slums? I think of rap and its origins.
Now I need to read soemthing else for a bit. Maybe another mystery from the Edgars lists.
@Meli - you probably know this since your husband is familiar with reggae and Jamaican music, but the chapter names are albums or songs . Original Rockers - can stream on Amazon Music. Ambush in the Night is of course Bob Marley given it is the title of the chapter about the events of December 3, 1976: https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/se...The absolute brilliance of Marlon James .... what to say?
I have the same cover with the hummingbird, interesting information!My husband has been giving me the overview history lesson so I knew some of that. Did not know that about Bill Adler, that's a cool connection.
I like that James mixes fact and fiction so I feel like I am getting some intimate history on Jamaica. I guess this is historical fiction so it makes sense.
According to my husband, and I think this can be corroborated by comments from our narrators, Bob Marley was not popular because his music was considered white man's reggae which makes sense considering what we see in his inner circle.
Reggae and variants of it were huge, but Marley was no where near as popular in Jamaica as he was outside his own country. He was revered as a hero and his funeral was well attended but I think the Jamaican people saw him more as a political figure. And because he made it big in the states and Europe he was respected.
I find the similarities to the US interesting, like you said for the same reasons. When I read criticisms of the rich kids playing pretend Rasta to piss off mommy and daddy that reminded me a lot of cultural phenomena we continue to see... fake hippies, "punks" in the 80s and crust punks in the early 2000s who are really trust fund kids who like to play pretend poor. Because let's be real, poor people try real hard not to look poor (speaking from my own experience). Not that this rule applies 100% but interesting that this is a tale as old as time! In these underground cultures you do tend to see a lot of moonlighters.
I also agree... so sad and depressing. But it does remind me of drug / gang culture in America. I think it was Demus maybe who was talking about how all the sudden he wanted to be somewhere else even though he had never been anywhere else. I felt so sad for him. Similar in American culture there are plenty of people in poverty stricken neighborhoods that never venture outside their own lil square block radius.
Look up the song Bambam by Sister Nancy!
There are so many fun Jamaican music references and this was one I caught just from listening to my husband's records.
Cool re. BamBam! I bet there are a ton of musical references I am not catching. I suspect everything in this book is a reference that is deliberately placed. Also, he has so far done a spectacular job illustrating exactly what you describe about Marley and his reggae. Again, the writing is brilliant.
The message is also there about the corruption of musical success and celebrity and how it dilutes the music itself and alienates its original supporters. Another story that is repeated over and over....
I agree, the writing is brilliant and I am in love. The language isn't as difficult as I was expecting.
Thankfully the narration is watered down quite a bit and real patois is reserved for dialogue. Many words repeat too so if you look them up that helps.
My husband expressed interest in reading this sometime when I was telling him about the story and I got real excited because we have very little overlap in books. He said "don't think you are starting another book club." 😂
Meli wrote: "I agree, the writing is brilliant and I am in love. The language isn't as difficult as I was expecting.
Thankfully the narration is watered down quite a bit and real patois is reserved for dialo..."
🤣🤣🤣
Actually, this is definitely a book that I can see someone like your husband enjoying.
One of the things I admire is James' pacing. Just as I am starting to strain from the patois, a chapter from Nina or DiFlorio or another comes along and it's like a rest, a relief. And yes, keeping the patois to the dialogue helps immensely. I've looked up a bit, figured out much just from context or thinking about what it would actually sound like. It's not nearly as bad as this friend led me to conclude - who also said that after a certain point, you don't need to look patois up any more.
But she was absolutely right about this being a tough read. 'Not Genteel" as she put it.
But it doesn't feel gratuitous - except to the extent that any such language and violence is gratuitous to how one should be living one's life.
To clarify an earlier point you made, I confirmed with my Jamaican historian (ie Husband) and he corroborated what you said regarding reggae - it was wildly popular in the poor community but looked down on by middle and upper class communities like hiphop. But again, although loved Bob Marley's music was not popular for the reason I mentioned... You are also right on the pacing. The enforcers and gang members definitely have more patois in their passages.
My husband bought a bulk of 45s, I think 100 for one set price, and he's running through them tonight. Just listened to the single "Gim Mi Your Love" by Junior Delgado and it's awesome! And a single by Junior Murvin that The Clash covered, you would immediately recognize the song I think, if you like the Clash. I used to hate when he'd play reggae all night because they like to reuse popular rhythms but this book is giving me a newfound appreciation for the music *^_^*
Meli wrote: "My husband bought a bulk of 45s, I think 100 for one set price, and he's running through them tonight. Just listened to the single "Gim Mi Your Love" by Junior Delgado and it's awesome! And a singl..."Today I loaded up my BOSE with Bob Marley CDs running the gamut of his career, and a couple of Eric Clapton unplugged just as a palate cleanser. When I finished, I picked up the book and started reading and there is a mention of Eric Clapton....seriously. love coincidence like that.
I also have a variety of reggae on a playlist on my phone for when reading this requires background. It is definitely helping me connect with the story being told. Like rap and hiphop, reggae reflects the society that produced it.
WHOA! Just finished the second book...reached page 269. I now need a break - whoosh. Need to process these last 60 pages or so.I don't think I have ever experienced a climactic scene and its aftermath in a book quite in such a manner. That whole BamBam chapter in verse was something. The cars, the viewpoints, the way each thread presented part of it, building and building. There was an inevitability, you knew what was happening but it still is shocking.
BTW did you spot the sibling rivalry aspects of the Nina & Kimmie plotline?
Dammit, now I am getting behind! Oh yes, Nina and Kimmie are definitely at each other's throats, and Nina has no respect for Kimmie (thinks she is a fraud and parents don't seem to see what she sees) so I noticed they are at odds. They had a particularly heated phone conversation just a bit ago as well.
But I am only to page 170ish I think? I didn't make as much progress as I planned this weekend :(
Hopefully I will catch up this week!
Meli wrote: "Dammit, now I am getting behind! Oh yes, Nina and Kimmie are definitely at each other's throats, and Nina has no respect for Kimmie (thinks she is a fraud and parents don't seem to see what she s..."
The last 2 or 3 Nina chapters in this chapter/section are pure sibling rivalry - just need to figure out how to present it inoffensively in Pursue it. LOL.
you are about to hit the point at which the denouement of this section starts building relentlessly. I read a good part of it on Saturday because I could not stop. Plus I have more time probably than you do - no kids, no partner or spouse. Just clients and work.
Kimmie... what a bitch! What a jealous bitch! grrrr...
Only at page 200ish though.
Kimmie as presented is a spoiled little two-faced bitch. I am reading other things for a couple of days so you can catch up. I will probably do another big chunk at end of week and over weekend since it is a holiday 3 day weekend. This is best read in stages I find. With lighter easier, DIFFERENT reading in between.
Then I need to get on it!
This is probably going to seep into March - which is fine with me. I made other 'travel final destination' plans after starting this when I realized reading of it was going to need to be paced. Jamaica became my stop enroute for some sun and rum.
I don't have a good travel destination, but I suppose I could plug something else in there if I don't finish. I can't imagine I will be able to get through this in February now that you mention it!
Meli wrote: "I don't have a good travel destination, but I suppose I could plug something else in there if I don't finish. I can't imagine I will be able to get through this in February now that you mention it!"I ended up using a book I was reading as part of my Edgars reading - the first in a series where second is nominated this year.
A reason to try to finish by 28th if possible...sibling rivalry in Pursue It. This looks like my only option for that.
I'm gonna be MIA on this thread for about a week until I can get through my next couple book club reads :( Got one I barely started for a meet up on Sunday and another the following Tuesday.
And I'll have to figure out where I will fly instead of Jamaica 😭
Wish me luck!
Theresa wrote: "A reason to try to finish by 28th if possible...sibling rivalry in Pursue It. This looks like my only option for that.."I think that definitely fits!
Meli wrote: "I'm gonna be MIA on this thread for about a week until I can get through my next couple book club reads :( Got one I barely started for a meet up on Sunday and another the following Tuesday.
And ..."
I was just going to mention that I've made no further progress. I still have books to start for a couple of challenges, and a couple in progress already. Meanwhile I'm sidetracked this weekend into fluff. So I too will be MIA a bit. I will try to read a little bit of James so as not to lose the thread or comfort level, but I am at the beginning of a new section occurring several years later, so a good time to put aside for a bit.
Fortunately, I found sibling rivalry in a different book - a very fast read -- which also gave me coming out to parents, so Pursue It is done for February!
Oh good, then there will be less pressure for you to finish this and hopefully I can try to catch up at some point!
Joanne wrote: "This sounds really good-however I cannot get to it this month. I did hesitantly add it but James dialogue in Black Leopard had me throwing it against the wall....in any event I added it, and we sha..."I loved this book, gave it 5 stars. I gave up on Black Leopard ...
Nicole D. wrote: "I loved this book, gave it 5 stars. I gave up on Black Leopard ...."This is quite a bit different than Black Leopard. I did finish that one also, but I am a glutton for punishment :)
I am back on track now that I finished a couple book club books for this month. I just finished a section that I think you already passed, so I am at page 250ish. It was violent, gross, stream-of-consciousness insanity, just the type of shit I LOVE!
I need a little help understanding what is going on with the CIA characters.
So wtf is going on with Louis Johnson? Is he a plant by the CIA or is he double-crossing the company?
Why are him and Barry Diflorio not on the same mission or aware of what the other is doing?
I have a general understanding about the US government, CIA or FBI, having plants in these countries to manipulate their people to crush communism but like at a very surface level.
I've not read any further - but will be picking up again over the weekend. Weather is supposed to be sunny and in the 50sF, so I'm taking it into Central Park to read while enjoying the weather. I read of lot of Proust last year in the spring that way. I even have my favorite park benches to read on!I am on page 269 - the end of that book and time period. Next part is 3 years or so later.
On the CIA - I have some basic knowledge and will try to share. I do think more of that story will be revealed as we read.
US used CIA to not just spy on other countries, but deliberately influence elections and policy. What's happening here all relates to the upcoming 1976 election, and who ends up elected is heavily influenced by the rival gangs in Kingston. The PNP party is currently in power and wants to retain power. You can see in book references to which gangs back PNP and which back the rival party JLP - which is the party ousted by PNP several years earlier. JLP was the party that came into power when Jamaica first became independent - remember, Jamaica's independence and self-rule is relatively recent - only a couple of decades old. By supplying guns to gangs backing one party vs. the other, and fomenting gang wars, the CIA is doing its part in voter suppression so to speak so that the CIA prefered party is in power - I think that means PNP (Jeesh, I might need to read back a bit before moving on in the book - I've already forgotten).
As far as the internal CIA dysfunction - these are spooks so hard to know what exactly is going on. Some of it is no doubt politics within the Agency, some of it is the ambitions or lack of ambition of each involved, but a lot of it also stems from what rogue ex-agent Bill Adler's published in 1969 tell-all did to the Agency. Adler is based on Philip Agee 100%. This tell all totally undermined CIA ability to operate on foreign soil and especially in Latin America - Jamaica because Adler/Agee was a field agent in Jamaica, named names and exposed people as working for the CIA, exposed what the CIA was doing in Latin America and Jamaica - by arming gangs etc. Meaning agents had to be pulled from their jobs/locations for their safety and retire from the Agency. That left CIA scrambling to fill positions and build new information networks hurriedly and without the usual precautions. And anyone who had past relationships with Adler/
Agee and continuing ones was seen as potentially compromised and thus not to be trusted.
Philip Agee was declared a traitor, lived out his life in Cuba - died in 2008. https://www.theguardian.com/world/200...
His tell-all book, which he claimed he wrote becuase he was sickened and disturbed by CIA actions (there is doubt on that point): Inside the Company: CIA Diary
Hope that helps.
Oh wow, so I am basically caught up to you, fantastic! Yes, that is helpful and it means I am catching onto what is going on better than I thought, thanks for the background / supplemental info.
I think you are correct in that the US government has a vested interest in the PNP staying in power, but I don't recall why, or where I picked that up.
I remember you mentioning Agee earlier in this thread.
What wild times all around the damn globe!
I'll try to pop back in for a check in this weekend if I get more reading in as planned.
Most of the reason I know anything about Agee and the spook world at that time is because about 3 years ago I read a memoir Spies in the Family: An American Spymaster, His Russian Crown Jewel, and the Friendship That Helped End the Cold War - Eve Dillon's father and his secretly turned Russian military high up were exposed in Agee's book and what he did was talked about at length here. In the mid-1970s, I was too busy attending college, protesting the Vietnam War, watching Watergate hearings, and celebrating Nixon's resignation to pay any attention to Latin America. Yes, I'm that old. If I looked outside US history and literature, it was at France primarily as I was a Francophile, a French Studies major, and planning a semester of study in Paris. Back to Jamaica. In the book (and in real life), Bob Marley was using his position as a universally loved musician to attempt to broker peace between the leaders of the major gangs - in book they are Shotta Sherrif of Eight Lanes and Papa Lo of Copenhagen City. The goal was to get the gangs to stop fighting each other and unite, allowing JLP to resume power over PNP. Although I believe Marley was just more interested in gang warfare stopping. This did not match what CIA wanted clearly as they through Johnson armed and sorta trained gang members under Papa Lo and helped organize the attack on Marley which was expected to escalate bloodshed in the ghettos.
Meantime, in Copenhagen City, you have Papa Lo who is in favor of peace and an end to gang war, and his ambitious second in command, Josey Wales who has been seduced by Johnson and the CIA to support their agenda - arming and continuing the gang wars so that PNP stays in power. Josey wants to move up and out of Jamaica and the gangs of Kingston. He's got his eye on NYC and a position in one of the Colombian drug cartels.
What CIA real goals are - not totally clear because there are suggestions that those goals are supporting the Colombian drug cartels and Cuba plays in some way -- I suspect much of this is related to Cuba and the goal of keeping communism restricted to Cuba, and not allowing Castro to align with any Latin or South American countries thus strengthening their position - and ultimately Russia's position - in the western hemisphere and too close to the USA. Remember: this is still the Cold War. Communism is personified by Russia and totally evil, desiring only to destroy democracy and the US. The Cuban Missile Crisis was only 10 years earlier and still fresh in memory of the senior CIA. There are no diplomatic or trade relations with Cuba and would not be for at least another 30 + years.
At least that's what I'm bringing to the table in understanding and thus getting from the book.
I am past the point where Papa Lo has revealed why him and Shotta Sherrif are meeting with Marley and that they've been convinced of his message of peace. Knowing Marley's messaging from his music I was sure he wasn't conspiring with a political party. At this stage, Papa Lo also recognizes he is losing Josey Wales. The fact that the CIA is orchestrating this violence makes it all the more sad, and solidifies Marley's (and his follower's) belief that the white man is Babylon (the devil). None of the white characters are giving us any reason to think otherwise, maybe with the exception of Alex so far who seems like a harmless guy for the most part. You protested the Vietnam War!? Holy shit, you are cool AF. When I was in high school I went through a hippie phase. I was really getting into rock-n-roll from the 60s and watched a shitload of documentaries about the 60s ... and you lived through it. I remember asking my grandma about the 60s but she was raising 2 kids and my grandpa was in the Vietnam War so not much acid dropping and shit like that 😂
I knew you were "that old" because you mentioned getting your polio shot. Man, you've seen some shit in your life!
Meli wrote: "I am past the point where Papa Lo has revealed why him and Shotta Sherrif are meeting with Marley and that they've been convinced of his message of peace. Knowing Marley's messaging from his music ..."That Papa Lo chapter was pivotal! Yeah, US has not always been above reproach, especially white america.
Let's see: moon walk, Kennedy Assassination - both John and Robert - remember those like it was yesterday and I was a kid. I also saw the Cuban Missile Crisis but was too young to understand impact. Legalization of abortion. Defeat of the Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution. Vietnam Protests were local - in my rural home town and on the college campus, but my Brother enlisted in the army's engineering program (he had an engineering degree) as a gamble to avoid being sent to Vietnam and it worked - he spent 4 years during peak of Vietnam War in Germany. He considered becoming a conscientious objector but that would have meant permanently leaving the US - he just could not do that.
Then there is technology - I learned to type on a manual Smith Corona typewriter - there were no electric typewriters. Computers took up entire rooms, they were so enormous --- think Hidden Figures scenes about installing IBM computer. My family had of course a telephone but it was a party line - shared with other families, so when you picked it up to make a call, someone else might be on it and you'd have to wait.
Everyone sees sh*t in their lifetimes, and what we have been seeing since 2001 is some of the most extreme I have ever experienced.
Wow, your brother was lucky. I remember watching docs about Vietnam in high school and thinking these are kids, they're my age! That's too much for anyone to handle. My grandfather was typical "man's man," the picture of traditional toxic masculinity, and he buried those memories quite deep for a long time. Later in his life he would have flashbacks and think my uncle was "Charlie." Scary stuff. That is wild to me - that you are so traumatized those memories just come back and you think you are living them again. Yes, I suppose we all see some sh*t in our lifetimes.
Feel like I've seen too much already 😂 I want the universe to chill out for a bit. But at least if the universe won't oblige I can be thankful my personal life is calm.
Yup. Calm in one's personal life is a joy!
I made it to 1979! Where are you?
I want to determine if you read Kim Clarke's passage yet so I can talk about something...
Not yet - still not started 1979. I was sidetracked by Edgar nominees....I'll get to it this week. Maybe even tonight.
No problem. This gives me time to get a little ahead because I will have to get into my March book club books.I will hold off until you finish the first chapter of 1979.
I will read tonight and we can dish. Had such a busy day already, I am ready to close down my office early.
@Meli - finished Kim Clarke. O.M.G.Let's talk.
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I expect to start reading in a few days. I know there are Booker Prize readers here who probably read it already. Feel free to join in our conversation. Or provide tips for reading. The friend who lent me her copy to read said she had to use the Urban Dictionary a lot initially.
Of course, if anyone else wants to join us, do!