February Discussion - "Dreadnought" by April Daniels

[Rob]

After witnessing the death of one of the most powerful superheroes in the world, Dreadnought, Danny Tozer's life changes forever. Not only does Danny inherit all of Dreadnought's super powers, she also is finally in the female body she was always meant to be in. Discussion of "Dreadnought will be Wednesday, February 3rd, 2021 at 7:00 p.m.

[Rob]

Hello everyone! :)

[Elle]

Hi Rob!

[Rob]

Hi Elyssa!

[Rob]

What did you think of the book this month?

[Elle]

This might be my favourite book of all we've read together!

[Rob]

Well that is awesome! I really enjoyed it too! I really want to read the sequel, like now :)

[Elle]

I absolutely loved the way the characters were written-there was a good balance that felt very reflective of the real world. Plus superheros and queer people? Perfection

[Rob]

haha that is very true. What more could you want? :)

[Elle]

Super powers of my own....

[Rob]

Danny’s super powers grant her a body she feels like she belongs in. In comparison to other superhero origin stories, Danny spends more time exploring her new body and her life as a woman rather than her new incredible powers. Why do you think this aspect of Danny’s new life is explored more?

[Elle]

For a cis person to magically get powers I think that would be the biggest change but I can only imagine finally being in the right body seemed like a super power in itself. I think it made sense to focus on her gender identity more because that was who Danny is, and being a cape came second

[Rob]

I definitely agree. I think throughout the story Danny was a girl more than she was a hero and that is what she wanted to be. I thought the last line of the book was really telling for that when she said "I think I can be a good person."

[Elle]

Rob wrote: "I definitely agree. I think throughout the story Danny was a girl more than she was a hero and that is what she wanted to be. I thought the last line of the book was really telling for that when sh..."

Absolutely! It was a coming out/coming of age story but hero was Danny's secondary plot.

[Rob]

Growing up, Danny idealized the Legion of Superheroes; however, when she finally meets them, she realizes some are not the people she initially thought they were. Some are manipulative, hostile, and even transphobic. Is this realistic? Is this comparable with anything in our world?

[Jelli]

Hi everyone, just got home so catching up on the chat.

[Elle]

I think that in the real world there are good guys and bad guys and good guys that can be bad and bad guys with honor codes. The way the characters were written felt like a reflection of the mixed bag of people that exist in our world.

[Jelli]

Rob wrote: "What did you think of the book this month?"

I liked it more than I thought I would, I am not usually into the superhero theme but I found this story quite engaging and the perspective very relatable.

[Elle]

Hi Jelli!

[Rob]

Hi Jelli! Good to see you!

[Jelli]

Elyssa wrote: "Rob wrote: "I definitely agree. I think throughout the story Danny was a girl more than she was a hero and that is what she wanted to be. I thought the last line of the book was really telling for ..."

Agree with both of you.

[Jelli]

Elyssa wrote: "Hi Jelli!"

Nice to see you back!

[Rob]

Elyssa wrote: "I think that in the real world there are good guys and bad guys and good guys that can be bad and bad guys with honor codes. The way the characters were written felt like a reflection of the mixed ..."

I agree. I think there is a sentiment of don't meet your heroes which can be true, However, not all the legion were bad people. However, being a superhero or in a postion of power or auuthority doesn't automatically make you a good person either.

[Rob]

Even with super strength and invincibility, Danny is unable to stop her father’s abuse and feels powerless to stand up to him. Why do you think that is?

[Jelli]

Rob wrote: "Growing up, Danny idealized the Legion of Superheroes; however, when she finally meets them, she realizes some are not the people she initially thought they were. Some are manipulative, hostile, an..."

I think the comparison in the real world is maybe to celebrities. We see them in one dimension and most of what we thing about them is projected based on what we see or want to believe. When you actually meet/talk to one, you find out they are real human beings with the same conflicts and quirks that we all have, the good and the bad. Not perfect like we imagine.

[Jelli]

Rob wrote: "Even with super strength and invincibility, Danny is unable to stop her father’s abuse and feels powerless to stand up to him. Why do you think that is?"

I think one reason is because she has been verbally abused for so long she had internalized the things he says and sort of believes them so they demoralize and paralyze her. Also she is basically a good person and this is her father and while she might entertain a fantasy of getting him back, she doesn't actually want to hurt him. What she actually wants is for him to understand.

[Rob]

Jelli wrote: "Rob wrote: "Growing up, Danny idealized the Legion of Superheroes; however, when she finally meets them, she realizes some are not the people she initially thought they were. Some are manipulative,..."

That is a good comparison. I was thinking about the police and how we often believe they are good and morally superior people but that is not always the case.

[Jelli]

Rob wrote: "That is a good comparison. I was thinking about the police and how we often believe they are good and morally superior people but that is not always the case.."

Another good comp - really ANY category of people that we put on a pedestal would be applicable.

[Rob]

Jelli wrote: "Rob wrote: "Even with super strength and invincibility, Danny is unable to stop her father’s abuse and feels powerless to stand up to him. Why do you think that is?"

I think one reason is because ..."

I think that is a very fair point. I think the depiction of verbal abuse and an abusive parent felt very real and hard to watch. I think something that stuck out to me was the fact that Danny was even afraid to call it by it's real name as that would somehow make it worse.

[Elle]

Jelli wrote: "Rob wrote: "Even with super strength and invincibility, Danny is unable to stop her father’s abuse and feels powerless to stand up to him. Why do you think that is?"

I think one reason is because ..."
I think this is a good explanation. I also feel like the people who you care about often have the easiest time hurting you. Throughout the story, Danny often repeated slurs and comments her dad said about her. Those things get stuck and amplified when you allow yourself to believe them. It really hurt reading some of the things that she was called. Even aside from her dad, when David said he hoped someone hurt her...that is such a common hateful threat men throw at women.

[Rob]

Elyssa wrote: "Jelli wrote: "Rob wrote: "Even with super strength and invincibility, Danny is unable to stop her father’s abuse and feels powerless to stand up to him. Why do you think that is?"

I think one reas..."

That was awful.

[Rob]

The book explores the idea of “White Capes” (Super Heroes), “Black Capes” (Super Villains), and “Grey Capes” (those that lie somewhere in between these moral extremes). Do you think this is a realistic portrayal of morality in the superhuman world? Do you think White Capes are always the most morally superior individuals?

[Elle]

I feel like categorizing capes into Good, Bad, Middleground Morals is just a generalization. Goes back to the don't meet your heroes-I think all people are a blend of morals and no one is wholly good or bad. If anything, people probably fit mostly into that Grey space.

[Rob]

I thought it was interesting there was an attitude that grey capes were almost worse than black capes because they had the potential to be morally pure.

[Jelli]

I think there is a spectrum but its a bell curve and a smaller number are truly black or truly white and a lot of people fall somewhere in the middle. Like Elyssa is saying.

[Elle]

Oh, I like the viewpoint of the bell curve

[Rob]

Greywitch believes trans women like Danny are not real women and don’t belong in female spaces. Does Greywitch realistically portray any group of individuals in our world? Why or why not?

[Rob]

Elyssa wrote: "Oh, I like the viewpoint of the bell curve"
Yes well said!

[Elle]

Greywitch was one of the most upsetting characters to me. Terfs and radfems in our world, and in queer communities in general gatekeep who should and should not be considered a particular gender. Some of Greywitch's arguments are verbatim things I've heard before and it's such awful hate rhetoric. I think it was a very true to life representation, even the fact that Calamity used the argument if the Legion didn't kick her out they were aiding and abetting the enemy sounded familiar.

[Jelli]

Rob wrote: "....Danny was even afraid to call it by it's real name as that would somehow make it worse. ."

Denial was a coping mechanism.

[Rob]

I also found Greywitch to be very upsetting. She would constantly misgender Danny, gatekept, and got involved in Danny's home life. I thought the Legion were just kind of complicit with her behavior which is wrong.

[Rob]

The book explores the idea of taking a mantle. Danny can easily choose a different superhero name but decides to take on the name Dreadnought like her predecessors. Why do you think she decided to use that name? What are the implications of Danny choosing this name?

[Jelli]

Ugh Greywitch - yes she does represent a real world perspective and I don't think you could tell this story with out her - if you goal it so show some of the things you will encounter on the transgender journey.

[Elle]

This felt like another layer of accepting her identity. She spent the whole book discovering herself as a woman and by the end, seemingly came to the realization that it wasn't all a mistake and being Dreadnought was part of her now too.

[Rob]

I felt as though her taking on that mantle was creating spaces in traditionally cis white male spaces. I thought about realms of our culture that are dominated by that group and her becoming the next Dreadnought opens the door for non cis white males in this space. I think it was important for her to take that name.

[Jelli]

It also shows 'Dreadnought' is not just one thing. It is modified and grows with each person who assumes the mantle. Each person brings their unique perspective to the role.

[Rob]

Unfortunately, this will be the last meeting of the YA Bookclub for Adults. I have accepted a new position in another library. Thank you so much for your contributions to the group and the important conversations that this group has had over the past year. I hope you all stay safe and healthy and wish you all the best.

[Elle]

Aww! Congratulations, Rob!

[Jelli]

Aww I am sad to hear this but very happy for you. Congratulations and thank you for the great reads and discussions.

[Elle]

Thanks to both of you; this has been fun