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God or Nothing
God or Nothing - Jan 2021
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1. Along the Way
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John
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Jan 01, 2021 06:38AM
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In my profound confusion, I vaguely considered the possibility of leaving the seminary. I went to see my spiritual director... He [said], “Listen, Robert. I have known four bishops in Nancy, and each had his faults... and his virtues... You will not be a priest for the bishop’s sake but for Christ and for the Church... Today, you must get along with Archbishop Tchidimbo, and in the future you will have to learn to cope with his successor’s personality.” The only surprise was that Archbishop Tchidimbo’s successor, by a mysterious decree of God, turned out to be me. . . .
from ch. IV--simple analysis: We're either with God, without Him or against Him. Those who are against at least regard this as an important question; harder to overcome indifference of the middle group.
--I like his image of the Church as the moon, which has no light of its own so must spend quality time turning its face to Christ the Sun.
--easy to reject liturgy as entertainment, yet some of the Protestant churches have drawn many to Christ by such means
--His first description of a priest is as a man crucified with Christ.
--interesting contrast: Moderns call for greater respect for nature (to combat climate change) but deny human nature given as male and female.
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I wrote about this in my post blog https://populscience.blogspot.com/202...
from VIWe expect to receive mercy despite deliberately remaining in sin, but sin destroys us.
His quoting Pascal about all misfortunes coming from the fact that we are unable to stay quietly in their own chambers resonates especially in this quarantine year
I'm not sure I understand why/how materialism leads to belief in magic.
In África is usual that the people believe in Witch Craft there are a lot of animism. Chesterton said that the people did not believe in God It Might believe in everything in western countries with the Wicca the Magic and paganism have sprouted again.
In ch. VIII like his distinction that faith is performative, not informative. It doesn't impart information; rather, it changes us, enables us to grow and act.
And his insight that when we rely on ourselves, we inevitably grow sad as our strength diminishes.
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I am getting through the book slowly, but I will finish this month. :-)
John wrote: "I regret that I was unable to finish it before the beginning of the month as there are so many more potential areas of discussion"You could add more questions to the list.
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You could add more questions to the list."
:-)
Yes, I could, though I think we have a fair number now. I will think about it.
VIIII like his image of the Church as a tree on which our vine can climb toward heaven.
Intriguing that he sees animism as evidence for (the human need for, logic of) Purgatory.
I can't find Our Lady of Guinea on-line. Does anyone know the story?
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I have found the following (my translation) in a French website: http://spiritains.forums.free.fr/defu...
When the war was over, he [Monseigneur Raymond LEROUGE, 1876-1949] founded the Congregation of the Little Sisters of Notre Dame de Guinée. A female student of the Sisters of Saint-Joseph de Cluny had, for several years, asked to stay with the Sisters, to help them, not to marry and "to be like them". In July 1919, before leaving for the general chapter of his Congregation, he imposed the habit on this postulant. A new institute was born. In 1951, on the other hand, mentalities having changed, the successor of Mgr Lerouge, Mgr Michel Bernard, saw fit to propose to the Guinean congregation to join the congregation of the Sisters of Saint Joseph, to show that no difference was made between Guinean sisters and European sisters. Almost all agreed; but a community in Brouadou, in the neighboring Prefecture, will maintain the existence of this congregation, called later to be revived and developed thanks to the Guinean Archbishop, Monsignor Robert Sarah.
Robert Sarah mentions in Chapter II that he assumed the responsibilities of curate of the parish of Saint Joseph the Worker and chaplain of Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus boarding school run by the Congregation of the Little Sisters of Our Lady of Guinea.
from XHe expresses so well Africa's gift to the whole Church: openness to the Transcendent and respect for life without limiting it to earthly life.
There can't be a "gap" between the teaching of the Magisterium and pastoral practice.
What do others think of the motu proprio permitting Mass to be celebrated in Latin according to the old rite? Of course it's better for those who choose to worship in this way to be joined to the Church than off on their own, but I'm mystified by its appeal, especially to young people, parents of large families. At the Latin Mass I attended, one couldn't hear what the priest was praying most of the time even if one understood the Latin; other things were being sung or chanted that didn't seem to fit into the flow of the liturgy. To me it seemed disjointed more than reverent. I'm not a cradle Catholic, came into the Church post-Vatican II, so I have no point of reference.
I grew up with the Latin Mass, and went along with Vatican II changes, although I loved its beauty and solemnity, and (as a former teacher who learned Latin in Catholic school) understood the prayers (we had bilingual missals to help). Now, with my post-VII adult children having left the church, I am intrigued by our next-door city in Texas being the second church to offer Latin Masses, this time, ALL Latin liturgy by the Petrine fathers. Mater Dei parish has become very popular, with mostly young families who are active in parish life. (I believe this is Taylor Marshall's parish). Reflecting on this surprising development, I'm hearing the same reports from other quarters, and I think back on the difference between my childhood Mass attendance and our attendance as a young family in the early 70's--what was missing post-Vatican II was the beauty and solemnity that contributed to a reverent, worshipful congregation, not merely an audience. I'm sure Gregorian chant might have had a calming influence as well. We behaved ourselves without having to be shushed or chastised. When our very active kids were small, we usually had to take them to the "cry room" out of consideration for others in our pew, to settle them down. Lately one of our new assistant pastors, a young newly-ordained priest who was a Vatican scholar, fluent in Latin and Greek, likes to chant and does whenever he can work it in. He has brought a different flavor to our Masses as well. While my husband and I are still attending Mass at what I call Our Lady of the Living Room Laptop, I have been trying to persuade Jim to visit Mater Dei once the churches open back up. I do miss the atmosphere of the earlier church experience.
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He expresses so well Africa's gift to the whole Church: openness to the Transcendent and respect for life without limiting it to earthly life.
There can't be a "gap" between the teaching of ..."
I guess I'm not sure what you think the relationship between gaps between Magisterial teaching and pastoral practice on the one hand and the the Latin Mass on the other. I don't see any gap.
I like the reverence in the Latin Mass, and spent some time trying to convince my wife to go more often (our priest in MN offers one Latin Mass every Sunday). She asked why I was interested and then pointed out that Father Bryan celebrates the N.O. Mass very reverently, which is true. Which made me think, the traditional rite is offered today almost exclusively by priests trying to rescue a sense of reverence in the Mass, but prior to VII one had no difficulty (so I have read) of finding sloppy Masses.
Now the easy way is the N.O. Mass, almost always with Eucharistic Prayer II, so that is where you find your sloppiest Masses, with the most creative liberties taken by priests. But a N.O. Mass can be proper and reverent.
two separate comments/questions, not meant to be related
We attend Mater Dei. We are revert/converts, and we found the text of the traditional Latin Mass online as we were discerning entering the Catholic Church. The fact that the Mass reenacts Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is more explicitly stated in the TLM. My husband grew up in NO masses and never understood what the Mass is about. He and all his siblings left the Catholic church. (Obviously there are good NO parishes too, but that wasn't his experience.)
About not hearing the priest in the Mass: his prayers are directed to God, not to the congregation, who participate by their own prayers. We use Latin-English missals. The prayers are wonderful.
As Madeline said, many families are drawn to Mater Dei for the reverence of the Mass, but also for the traditional Church teachings. Some were dismayed at what their parish priests were teaching.
Finally, it's normal to find one's first few Latin masses challenging because it's so different -- you have to give yourself time to acclimate.
I totally agree with Kristi unfortunatelly i Hear the mass in spanish but for instance i watched the movie Beckett recenty and It is incredible when Richard Burton say the mass in latín. Un something greatness and glorious. PD. Unfortunatelly i Read this book some years but now the book is in my village Mojados for This reason i Will not be able to Read again, however i remember some things and i Will participate to the discussion.
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"Today how can anyone deny the fact that some men of the Church are in a state of moral ruin? The careerism and the temptation to worldliness that the successor of which Peter speaks so often are very real evils."
"In order to turn the tide, we must reform our interior life. The Church depends on the purity of our souls."
The second sentence in the first quote is hard to decipher, but if it is read as follows: "The careerism and the temptation to worldliness of which the successor of Peter speaks so often are very real evils." Then the sentence and the quote make a lot more sense as a reference to Pope Francis in support of his thesis of the moral ruin of some churchmen, referring, I think, at least to some priests, but also likely some bishops and cardinals.
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Yes, this must be a translation mistake (the book was originally written in French).
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Yes, I knew that. I meant to ask - how does it read in Spanish?
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I don't know, I'm reading it in the English translation. Perhaps Fonch would know, as he read it in Spanish, but he said he doesn't have the book at home just now.
Yes unfortunatelly i have the book in Mojados. The book It is good Read and It is very good translated into spanish although to my man scared i would not mind that the mass came back to Latín. I have never been able to control because i am a disaster to learn foreign lamguages i studied English for years and i spoke and i wrote worst that Sitting Bill. We have spoken of África and we must protect the Christian of This continent there are 1,2 billions of Africans only 2 hundred millions less than China. Who dominate África and Asia Will rule the world and the history.
About the speech of Cardinal Sarah about the bad State of the clergy we should remember the speech of the Cardinal Ratzinger before to become Pope he said things harder than the Cardinal Sarah the problem is the Church imitates the world This is the Big Evil of the Catholic Church nowadays and to convert in a No Goverment Asociation.
I finished today. I liked this book much more than the previous one we read. We get to know Cardinal Sarah better in this book, and I feel that it would be better to read “The power of silence “ after this one. I may do this.My review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
The Power of Silence is not a bad book, but it is lower of quality to God or Nothing, although it is very interesting his interest for the silence.
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I agree with you, Mariangel. I was disappointed by Power of Silence. I will probably also read it again, but perhaps not until after we consider The Day is Now Far Spent, which should reach the Voting List in four or five months.
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I have found a French edition of this book, and this sentence reads:
Le carriérisme et la tentation des mondanités dont parle si souvent le successeur de Pierre sont des maux bien réels.
So you alternative translation is perfect.
John wrote: "Mariangel wrote: "I finished today. I liked this book much more than the previous one we read. We get to know Cardinal Sarah better in this book, and I feel that it would be better to read “The pow..."I was going to say this that i have the third part and this book i will keep until we read in catholic book club although we must wait several years.
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It is currently #6 on the Nominating List, so it will certainly be up for voting this year, most likely in 3 or 4 months.
John wrote: "Fonch wrote: "John wrote: "Mariangel wrote: "I finished today. I liked this book much more than the previous one we read. We get to know Cardinal Sarah better in this book, and I feel that it would..."There is not any problem. We have all time of the World.
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John wrote: "In Chapter X, Cardinal Sarah talks a bit about monasteries and contemplative vocations. A nice introduction to our next book, perhaps?"It is possible although the next book it is written by the death of a good friend of Cardinal Sarah and Nicholas Diat. It looks that he is a contemplative monk.
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It is possible although the next book it is written by the death of a good friend of Cardinal Sarah and Nicholas Diat. It looks that he is a contemplative monk."
Fonch, by "our next book" John meant "In this house of Brede."
Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "John wrote: "In Chapter X, Cardinal Sarah talks a bit about monasteries and contemplative vocations. A nice introduction to our next book, perhaps?"It is possible although the next ..."
Ah i thought that he wrote about the next book of the Cardinal Sarah. I apologise for this.
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Oh i have very good news at finally i have found the book Good or Nothing at finally i had It at home. The problem is that This group was in another place not in the wardrobe the book was in upstair shelve. I Will Read in two days and i Will include new comments. I know that It is not the right place but i am Happy that Manny had joined to our club.
Hello i think that i say that i Will find the book (at Last) How i did not find the book wrongly i Thought that the book It would be on my village Mojados. Despite my challenge i decided to Read again and though i have only had two days and yesterday i was reading a book of Spanish writer José María Peman i Read It again in only One day i must confess that the book Keep the same impression that when i have Read It. This is an honor in favor of the Cardinal Sarah. His reply to Nicholas Diat continue being stunning. I have impressed his experience with the communist régime of Seku Toure It is really curious but the Popes of the twetienth cenrury has passionated lives worth of example. I wish there were more cardinals as Cardinal Sarah and i wish everybody had clear the doctrine as the Cardinal i wish he was not the exception and ubique case. It is very valueable when i Read this book i do not know that i confessed previously my desea that there were an african Pope in the Saint Peter's chair disappear. The disaster can go of África but also the salvation indeed the Hope of the Church in my opinion is in África and in Asia. When the Pope Saint John Paul II died i wanted a chinese cardinal to rule Saint Peter It is really curious that Tom Grace Thought the same that me and his novel finished with a chinese cardinal previously rescued chosen Pope in This period i wanted to conclude the Saint John Paul II labor but i do not regret the Benedict XVI election and i totally agree with Cardinal Sarah that he will be a Saint. There is some Brave things of Cardinal Sarah his strikes against the feminism and the lobby gay action and It is absolutely right that he Saw as a new way of colonialism i was totally impressed for the testimony of the japanese Girls Who did not commit a suicide after seeing his preaching. Also are Brave his replies of the pedophile case in the Catholic Church and the reply to Maciel and the leguonaires of Christ absolutely right. In my case my favorite evangion is the Saint John Evangelion he explains difficult questions as the Avería, for instance also as me he felt affectione for Saint Benedict Orden and also It is very coursgeous his reply to the question of Reinhard Marx the divirce and the question of celibacy in the priets i have never Thought in the Carthage Council and i Thought that the celibacy was of the 11th cenrury although i have ever been recommended. To sum Up It is a Big reading and the fifth of febraury i Will buy The House of Brede and i Will be able to join to the Next discussion.
In This book appears signals about the Next Cardinal Sarah book when he spoke about the silence and the contemplative Órders i Will wait that the third book was chosen to Read It.
Certainly i forget saying It. One of the recomendations of the spanish edition of God or Nothing is From the Archbishop and President of Episcopal Conference Jose Gómez.
