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Gone with the Wind
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A Weighty Tome: 2021 Challenge: Gone with the Wind
Wow, Laurie thank you for sharing this. I agree so much with you. I, too felt very sad for her after reading this. I also hate how she is toward her baby, and it is worrisome but she was just too immature to have to endure that challenges of motherhood and marriage yet times expected it of her.
Suhailah wrote: "Wow, Laurie thank you for sharing this. I agree so much with you. I, too felt very sad for her after reading this. I also hate how she is toward her baby, and it is worrisome but she was just too i..."Yes, it's a strange feeling to be so annoyed with a character for 200 pages and then to suddenly feel something else towards her. Understanding her a bit more doesn't excuse all of her behavior, but it does maybe soften my attitude towards her a little...? I guess I'll have to wait and see.
I'm happy that at least the baby has plenty of other people lavishing him with love right now, but I don't know if that will last and I worry about how he will grow up. This book is definitely turning out to be thought-provoking.
Yes, it is very thought provoking. And I believe as it goes along it will prove to be even more so!
I agree it was a different time that placed grown up responsibilities on the shoulders of young ladies, girls really. I don't have much sympathy for Scarlett, though. Melanie handled her situation admirably - marriage, quick honeymoon, and Ashley was off to the war. Same situation as Scarlett. Of course Scarlett was widowed and had a baby, but Melanie would have handled those circumstances with her usual maturity and grace.
I see a childish petulance and entitlement in Scarlett that is very off-putting to me. Her lack of interest in her child is shameful. Reading Ashley's letters to Melanie shocked me - that's a line not to be crossed, but Scarlett crossed it very easily.
Scarlett is strong and she's a survivor, for sure, but her character is just too flawed for me to feel much compassion for her.
I see a childish petulance and entitlement in Scarlett that is very off-putting to me. Her lack of interest in her child is shameful. Reading Ashley's letters to Melanie shocked me - that's a line not to be crossed, but Scarlett crossed it very easily.
Scarlett is strong and she's a survivor, for sure, but her character is just too flawed for me to feel much compassion for her.
Cozy_Pug I agree Melanie would have handled the situation much more admirably and responsible. She is more mature and has the complete opposite personality than Scarlett does. Scarlett is very flawed for sure but makes for an entertaining and thought provoking read. She was very unlike other women of her time and indeed very much entitled. I sense strong narcissistic traits for her as well! I was shocked too that she read Ashley's letters. She needs someone or something to come along to help change her outlook on life!
Agreed - the book wouldn't be compelling without Scarlett's shenanigans and the tension that creates within her society. I don't deny the appeal of reading what Scarlett says and does - but I don't like her as a character. She comes across much worse in the book than she did in the movie - it's been a real eye opener!
Oh yes, she is definitely worse in the book than the movie!
I've never seen the movie, but I believe you when you say she is worse in the book. Again, I don't like Scarlett and I'm not excusing her behavior. Much of her behavior disturbs and upsets me. But the passage in Chapter Eleven after she reads the letter was just really enlightening to me - a deeper look into her psyche. It makes me think about nature vs. nurture. Some of Scarlett's behavior has to be chalked up to her natural personality and temperament. As Suhailah says, she and Melanie are different people. But it also seems to me that Scarlett's parents and caretakers did little to nothing to curb her more negative tendencies.Even with all that in mind, however, it is hard for me to understand how anyone, even a young person, could be THAT self-centered. Suhailah may be onto something with the narcissism idea. That would explain a lot.
Very well said, Laurie. It's very difficult to find ways to sympathize with someone with such disturbing behaviors, but sometimes it helps just a little to understand how or why they are the way they are. Trust me, I one thousand percent can understand how you feel. I've spent many years working in behavioral health and even lived with a toxic family member so being able to see past their behaviors helps you work through it knowing that it often isn't fully within their control. Unfortunately, personality disorders such as narcissism are very difficult, if not impossible to treat. It doesn't help at all that her environment and family fed into her traits. Though so far it seems that they either didn't see how she really was or chose to ignore it. For example, when Gerald came to pick her up in Atlanta after finding out about her behavior at the social function she manipulated him into letting her stay using his own mistakes against him! He seems to recognize how she is and tries to punish her but then loses.
Suhailah wrote: "Very well said, Laurie. It's very difficult to find ways to sympathize with someone with such disturbing behaviors, but sometimes it helps just a little to understand how or why they are the way th..."That scene with Gerald was something! I was shocked!
I used to work for someone I eventually came to believe was a narcissist. But it took me quite a while to see it. Once I did, it helped me to at least recognize the toxic behavior as being on them and not on me, and gave me some emotional protection. It was still a bad situation, but that understanding did help in some ways.
From my limited experience, I have seen that narcissists can indeed fool people for a while - even longer if those people don't want to analyze the behavior too closely. So in Scarlett's case, since the book doesn't really cover her childhood, we can't say for certain how much her parents didn't see versus how much they ignored. But I would guess it's a little of both.
I'm intrigued by the idea that Scarlett might be a narcissist. She certainly has a mighty high opinion of herself. The thing that stood out to me was that she was the belle of the county. All the young men were charmed by her beauty and flirtatious ways. And they all seemed blind to her faults. I also agree her father indulged her willful ways, I suspect partly because she reminded him so much of himself. Her mother certainly made an impression on Scarlett, she seems to think often of what her mother would do or say in a situation. But she lacks the ability to curb her impulses and her self-centered nature. As far as Ashley, I think she's fixated on him, obsessed with him, because he's the one man she couldn't have.
I agree it's good to understand why a character behaves as they do, I didn't mean to minimize that. I'm at a disadvantage because I already completed the book, so I've seen all things Scarlett does. It's hard for me to sympathize with her character even knowing that she is the way she is due to indulgent upbringing, her nature, or even a personality disorder. By this point in the story I was not really caring much for Scarlett. But once I saw how little she cares for poor Wade Hampton, that was it. That complete detachment from her child is something I can't excuse. If I thought she was suffering from postpartum depression, I'd feel badly for her. I could understand that. But her lack of interest in her child is shocking to me.
She seems to continually cross the line when it comes to appropriate behavior. Reading Ashley's letters to Melanie is a perfect example of that. And she appears to not feel the least bit of guilt about doing it! It blows my mind, Scarlett just does whatever she wants and doesn't think about anyone else - except Ashley. She's so hateful to Melanie, in her thoughts and things she says to other people. Maybe those are narcissistic traits, I don't know but Scarlett comes across as cold hearted, self centered, arrogant.
How do you all feel about Rhett at this point? Complete cad and scoundrel, or is there more to him than that?
I agree it's good to understand why a character behaves as they do, I didn't mean to minimize that. I'm at a disadvantage because I already completed the book, so I've seen all things Scarlett does. It's hard for me to sympathize with her character even knowing that she is the way she is due to indulgent upbringing, her nature, or even a personality disorder. By this point in the story I was not really caring much for Scarlett. But once I saw how little she cares for poor Wade Hampton, that was it. That complete detachment from her child is something I can't excuse. If I thought she was suffering from postpartum depression, I'd feel badly for her. I could understand that. But her lack of interest in her child is shocking to me.
She seems to continually cross the line when it comes to appropriate behavior. Reading Ashley's letters to Melanie is a perfect example of that. And she appears to not feel the least bit of guilt about doing it! It blows my mind, Scarlett just does whatever she wants and doesn't think about anyone else - except Ashley. She's so hateful to Melanie, in her thoughts and things she says to other people. Maybe those are narcissistic traits, I don't know but Scarlett comes across as cold hearted, self centered, arrogant.
How do you all feel about Rhett at this point? Complete cad and scoundrel, or is there more to him than that?
At this point, Rhett is intriguing. He also seems very different for his time and goes against the normal trends and ideas. That being said, he is definitely rebellious and seems as if he definitely could be classified as a "cad." Cozy_Pug, I had no idea you had already finished the book! Congratulations! That definitely keeps me open and excited to see how I will feel once I have more knowledge. From what I recall from the movie (it's been years though) was that Scarlett had some enlightening experiences that challenged her survival that should have led to a life changing mindset but didn't in the end. But I can't wait to continue on and see how it all plays out. Thank goodness I'm able to withstand her character enough to read the book! It seems to be so scandalous at times that it just makes it interesting and popular. And it makes for great conversations with fellow book readers!
I agree, Rhett is very intriguing! I feel like he's complicated, there's more to him than the persona he portrays.
As unpleasant as I find Scarlett, I couldn't put the book down. The story is so compelling, and I really enjoy the way in which Margaret Mitchell wrote the story. One of the things I wondered about before I read the book was why it was so enormously popular when it was released. What about the story, the characters, the setting, etc made it so appealing to readers? Now that I've read it, I can see why it was so popular. The writing style is relatable and accessible, these characters are so vivid, and the historic backdrop in which they live is woven into their lives. And it is scandalous, the things that Scarlett gets up to are outrageous - you want to keep reading to see what happens next. It's hard to describe without giving anything away, but it's just a really great story!
As unpleasant as I find Scarlett, I couldn't put the book down. The story is so compelling, and I really enjoy the way in which Margaret Mitchell wrote the story. One of the things I wondered about before I read the book was why it was so enormously popular when it was released. What about the story, the characters, the setting, etc made it so appealing to readers? Now that I've read it, I can see why it was so popular. The writing style is relatable and accessible, these characters are so vivid, and the historic backdrop in which they live is woven into their lives. And it is scandalous, the things that Scarlett gets up to are outrageous - you want to keep reading to see what happens next. It's hard to describe without giving anything away, but it's just a really great story!
Exactly! I can't wait to continue on. Starting Ch 12 now. :)
Mod
I've been saying to myself all along, what Scarlett feels ..."
Great summary, Laurie I agree with you.
Although I still feel like Ashley is a crush she was hanging onto (you know the whole, she can't have him so she wants him more?), but teenage love is so different and hard to understand! ;)
Mod
As unpleasant as I find Scarlett, I couldn't put the book down. The story is so ..."
I haven't seen the movie so I don't know what to expect, but so far I like Rhett's character (although maybe not him... if that makes sense!). He is the only one who seems to be able to cut through Scarlett's BS. He is also deeply flawed which makes him interesting
Karen ⊰✿ wrote: "He is the only one who seems to be able to cut through Scarlett's BS."I agree - I think that's why I like Rhett's character as well. I also really dislike how fake most of the other characters seem, and he seems authentic - even if he's authentically a cad, lol.
Rhett definitely sees through Scarlett's schemes and pretensions like no one else, and he also pushes her buttons like no else.
Laurie - lol an authentic cad :D But it's so true - Rhett doesn't pretend to be someone he's not.
Laurie - lol an authentic cad :D But it's so true - Rhett doesn't pretend to be someone he's not.
Hello everyone, I', Cilla. I just joined this group a few days ago and decided to read GWTW with all of you. I am very behind. I am not sure how long it will take for me to catch up. It will depend on how life goes. I did notice that May is a break/catch up month. This is the version I am reading (1,448 pages).
Cilla wrote: "Hello everyone, I', Cilla. I just joined this group a few days ago and decided to read GWTW with all of you. I am very behind. I am not sure how long it will take for me to catch up. It will depend..."
Welcome! :) It's a wonderful book - hope you enjoy it!
Welcome! :) It's a wonderful book - hope you enjoy it!
Welcome to the challenge, Cilla! No worries about starting later. You will definitely catch up. I think a lot of us are in different places anyway. I hope you enjoy the book. Feel free to share some thoughts with us as you read. And most importantly, Happy Reading!!
Mod
Don't worry about catching up, I'm forever behind on these massive buddy reads, and it isn't any different this year ;-)
I'll hope to catch up soonish, latest in autumn heheh - if it's any consolation ;-)
Chapter 14 was tense! The release of the first casualty list...I cannot even imagine what it would be like to sit and wait for a list not knowing if your loved one had been killed or severely wounded. It angers me so much that war has to exist!
It's rather awful, isn't it. It's strange to think that because of the way the news was published, your shock and grief are very public when you find out your loved one is wounded or dead. With the town gathered together to hear the news, there's no chance to process the initial shock privately. I don't know why that's upsetting to me, but it is.
War is a terrible, terrible thing. I feel so bad for poor little Wade Hampton, losing his father to the war. I think Charles would've been a good father, he would've made up for Scarlett's failings as a mother.
War is a terrible, terrible thing. I feel so bad for poor little Wade Hampton, losing his father to the war. I think Charles would've been a good father, he would've made up for Scarlett's failings as a mother.
I agree. Charles seemed like a loving and caring kind of man. I feel so sorry for Wade and just hoping somehow he doesn't suffer long term issues from not having motherly love to support him through life.
It's been so long since I read this book (several decades), I forgot a lot of the little details.Gerald O'Hara come to the USA with the clothes on his back and two pence to avoid trouble. He sure came out well by winning a game of poker. The movie never mentioned Prissy's mother and how she came to Tara. Gerald had a good heart.
Ellen was mourning the man she loved, yet accepted Gerald O'Hara's proposal. Can you imagine getting married at 15 and having all of the responsibility of a plantation?
I guess Walter Plunkett (costume designer) and David O. Selznick didn't get the memo about the green print muslin Scarlet was wearing when the Tarleton twins visited Tara at the beginning of the book. In the movie, she was dressed in white with a red belt. It's fun for me to think about these differences since I have seen the movie so many times.
Margaret Mitchell describes the clothes and the details about everything so well. Personally, I love all of this.
I only got 100 pages in today. We'll see how it goes tomorrow after the doctor appointment.
Enjoy everyone.
Mod
You're right, Cilla! I forgot that she was definitely wearing opposite what the book described. That's a bit frustrating. Seems like such a small thing that could have easily been done!
Maybe the movie makers thought Scarlett would look too daring, too old in green? White gave her a look of young innocence? I really don't know, just thinking out loud. I do know that opening scene is burned in my mind - Scarlett was young and beautiful, she was like a lovely flower in full bloom.
Very true! There's usually always a reason.
Suhailah wrote: "You're right, Cilla! I forgot that she was definitely wearing opposite what the book described. That's a bit frustrating. Seems like such a small thing that could have easily been done!"Generally speaking. a green print muslin would not have been a particularly dark color especially if worn by a young person. Young ladies wore lighter colors.
This is more what I had envisioned regarding color: White cotton muslin dress w/ green floral print 1860s from museum in Bath.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Expy1QhXI...
They had their rules about fabrics/color back then. They also had rules about hand covers and how the hair should be worn, etc. It was fun to do the research when I was reenacting. I did win awards for two dresses I wore. One was for a day dress, complete with hem guard. The other was a ball ball gown. They both had all of the fancy trims, etc.
Pointing out the 12 yards in the skirt is telling that Scarlet came from a well to do family. The fabric would not have been pulled taught over even a very large crinoline/hoop. Only those without the funds for excess would have a smaller hoop and little to no extra fullness of the skirt.
Cilla wrote: "Suhailah wrote: "You're right, Cilla! I forgot that she was definitely wearing opposite what the book described. That's a bit frustrating. Seems like such a small thing that could have easily been ..."That's really interesting. So cool that you've done reenacting! :D
Just finished Part II, a bit ahead of schedule. Minor spoilers up to this point.I completely agree about the casualties list in Chapter 14 - that was so uncomfortable to read.
But, oh my gosh, Scarlett in Chapter 15! And I don't like Ashley any better - what does he see in her (apart from the obvious)? Ugh. At least Scarlett had enough awareness to realize her actions were sinful...but only when she felt she was being punished. The whole thing turns my stomach.
I honestly don't like any of the characters (as people) - they're all a mess. Even Melanie got kind of weird with her comments about it being better to have a child killed than no child at all and better for her husband to die than to turn traitor. Rhett is still the best simply because he doesn't hide who he is. Like it or not, though, the book is certainly compelling.
Something else that shocked me was the prices of things in the South! I knew the Confederacy really struggled economically, but I had never really thought about the hyperinflation until I saw those figures. $35 for a pound of beef...$800 for a pair of shoes! Incredible.
Mod
Thanks for that insight! Puts it into perspective how much is got across by the costumes. Shouldn't be surprising as we still make judgements on people based on what they wear.
Mod
Sophie wrote: "I've finally got a bit further with this! Have finished part 1 - wow Scarlett is entitled and her marriage to Charles in a teenage snit is not an attractive look."
That's a brilliant one sentence summary! :D
That's a brilliant one sentence summary! :D
Laurie wrote: "Just finished Part II, a bit ahead of schedule. Minor spoilers up to this point.
I completely agree about the casualties list in Chapter 14 - that was so uncomfortable to read.
But, oh my gosh, S..."
I was so disappointed in Ashley in this chapter. He's supposed to be a true southern gentleman, but that was not a gentlemanly thing to do. Poor Melanie, always in Scarlett's shadow.
The prices of goods was startling, and it reminded of the early weeks of the pandemic last year when some people were selling hand sanitizer, disinfectant wipes, and toilet paper online for astronomical amounts.
I completely agree about the casualties list in Chapter 14 - that was so uncomfortable to read.
But, oh my gosh, S..."
I was so disappointed in Ashley in this chapter. He's supposed to be a true southern gentleman, but that was not a gentlemanly thing to do. Poor Melanie, always in Scarlett's shadow.
The prices of goods was startling, and it reminded of the early weeks of the pandemic last year when some people were selling hand sanitizer, disinfectant wipes, and toilet paper online for astronomical amounts.
Wow, I'm disappointed in Ashley too. And I wish Scarlett would wake up and realize they aren't even compatible!! That has become obvious after all we've learned. I'm trying to calm myself down after his betrayal by thinking maybe he had a moment of weakness feeling like he was going to die upon his return to war. But still!!! He can't be a gentleman and betray Melanie like that. She's too good of a person to love Scarlett so much despite her ways. She don't deserve to be treated like that.
It seems even worse that Ashley and Scarlett are behaving this way in Melanie's home while she's there! Who does that?!
I know!!! Terrible!
I just finished part 2. Scarlett is far worse in the book than in the movie.
I still get aggravated when I think of her using Charles to try to get back at Ashley and then regretting her impetuous decision. She married, got pregnant, became a widow and a mother on one page! Of course in the movie, there is no Wade. She complains ad nauseum and behaves in a most deplorable way for that time period. How can anyone have any respect for her?
She ignores her child and reads Melanie's letters. She has no clue why Ashley writes what he does, but Melanie understands. I still don't get why Scarlett can't get it through her head that she'll never get or have Ashley. It's so childish like, if I can't have him no one should have him. She has no clue what he is about. Rhett has already pointed this out and she just ignores him.
It's unfortunate that Scarlett betrays Melanie time after time. Reading the letters was bad enough, but she goes after Ashley and kisses him in the same house where his wife is just upstairs. And that kiss was no simple peck on the cheek. It's so sad that Scarlett can't see how supportive Melanie is, regardless of how awful her behavior is.
I have always liked Rhett because he doesn't pull any punches. What you see is what you get. I like his bluntness and honesty. He's not concerned with what other people think of him either.
Scarlett seems to be concerned about what others think. However, she behaves inappropriately even when she knows what she is doing wrong and then complains. I'd like to smack her!!
The casualty list scene in the movie and book is heart wrenching. People have to endure the wait for the news in a crowd and then react to the news whether it is good or bad. I would like to have privacy at such a time. Melanie has no clue as to the real reason for Scarlett's rejoice that Ashley's name doesn't appear on the list and thinks she is just being supportive.
Margaret Mitchell's book is very well written and almost paints a picture for the reader. I am looking forward to continuing.
I am going to take a bit of a break from GWTW to work on some other challenges and get ready for Tower Teams 8. I am a newbie and really have to read the rules again.
Mod
Scarlett is far worse in the book than in the movie.
I still get aggravated when I think of her using Charles to try to get back at Ashley and then regretting her impetuo..."
Fantastic summary Cilla.
She is a child thrown into being an adult through her marriage and pregnancy, but essentially wipes it away and wants to be a child again. As much as she is very unlikeable, I also understand and I think her character is very well written.
Melanie is so nice which of course makes Scarlett and Ashley's actions even worse!
Rhett is of course terrible, but he owns it. I find myself laughing out loud with his passages.
Interesting that Wade wasn't in the movie, but I guess he hardly appears in the book either!!
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Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado
(last edited Apr 23, 2021 03:37PM)
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Mod
I'm a little ahead because I find this a great audiobook to listen to at night - the narrators voice is soothing ;)
I loved this chapter (view spoiler)
I finally finished Part 2! I ended up having my little one in the beginning of March and needless to say, unlike Scarlett, I haven't had much time to do anything else! Now that he's been less demanding and more "interested" with the things around him, I've taken to reading this out loud with him so I have more time to read.After catching up on all the posts, I feel I may be a minority in this challenge but in a way I like Scarlett. Yes, she's whiny, spoiled, and probably could be classified as a narcissist, but she is also a product of her upbringing and times. She is also so used to getting what she wants that this is the one thing she's hasn't been able to get so she wants it more and more and more. She's a child that has been forced to grow up far too fast. It's not true love she has for Ashley; it's infatuation for something she can't obtain. (view spoiler) I like that Scarlett's not a stereotypical "Southern Belle" as so many of the other characters are. I also am a fan of Belle Watling for some of the same reasons. (view spoiler)
Her and Rhett are two peas in the pod I think. although I never realized there was such a huge age difference between them! In the movie it never seemed to be that way. The way they banter on with each other makes me laugh out loud.
“Sir,"she said,"you are no gentleman!"
An apt observation,"he answered airily."And, you, Miss, are no lady.”
I may start reading a bit ahead this month just so I can try to stay up with the challenge..and because I'm just really enjoying this book!
I'm using the May break/catch-up month to spread out Part 3's reading, so I just finished Chapter 20.(view spoiler)
Mod
A reminder for
June & July 2021
We are reading:
Vol 1
Part 3: pp 291 - 510
I'm soooooo behind! But TT... lol.
Mod
I am very behind too. I will work on catching up.. eventually...
Nothing But Reading Challenges
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(view spoiler)[
I've been saying to myself all along, what Scarlett feels for Ashley is NOT love - it's infatuation. So her constant mentions of loving him drive me crazy. But in Chapter Eleven, the author digs into this a bit deeper:
"She stood for a moment, holding the letters to her breast, thinking longingly of Ashley. Her emotions toward him had not changed since the day when she first fell in love with him. They were the same emotions that struck her speechless that day when she was fourteen years old...Her love was still a young girl's adoration for a man she could not understand...He was still a young girl's dream of the Perfect Knight and her dream asked no more than acknowledgment of his love, went no further than hopes of a kiss.
After reading the letters, she felt certain he did love her, Scarlett, even though he had married Melanie, and that certainty was almost all that she desired. She was still that young and untouched. Had Charles with his fumbling awkwardness and his embarrassed intimacies tapped any of the deep vein of passionate feeling within her, her dreams of Ashley would not be ending with a kiss. But those few moonlight nights alone with Charles had not touched her emotions or ripened her to maturity. Charles had awakened no idea of what passion might be or tenderness or true intimacy of body or spirit.
All that passion meant to her was servitude to inexplicable male madness, unshared by females, a painful and embarrassing process that led inevitably to the still more painful process of childbirth. That marriage should be like this was no surprise to her. Ellen had hinted before the wedding that marriage was something women must bear with dignity and fortitude, and the whispered comments of other matrons since her widowhood had confirmed this. Scarlett was glad to be done with passion and marriage.
She was done with marriage but not with love, for her love for Ashley was something different, having nothing to do with passion or marriage, something sacred and breath-takingly beautiful, an emotion that grew stealthily through the long days of her enforced silence, feeding on oft-thumbed memories and hopes."
What a passage!
The author makes clear here, as others have mentioned, that Scarlett is still only a young girl, a teenager. And she's been raised in a time and society when this meant she was really sheltered and uneducated in many ways. Girls were raised to attract husbands and little else and were kept to a very confined role in society.
At some point, everyone has to start taking responsibility for their own actions, but I can see how Scarlett turned out the way she did largely because of how she was raised. She was far too young and immature to be married and to become a mother. One thing that has really bothered me is her attitude towards her baby. It's easy to say she "chose" this path for herself. But I can see that she really had no idea what she was getting into. And her parents and society encouraged and allowed it. Her parents could have guided her to wait, but that wasn't the cultural norm of the time. Her parents didn't have to turn their daughters into debutantes at such an early age, but that's how things were done. Girls were raised for this without any real understanding of what love, marriage, and physical intimacy are all about.
So in that sense, I can pity Scarlett, and I can admire her strong will to choose her own course and not settle for what society deems appropriate for her. (hide spoiler)]