5. The Characters: The Real Presence of Invisible Friends

[John]

5. "Saints are the most interesting people, the most creative people, the most trustable people, the most happy people in the world." Is this true, and why is it so different from what the world would tell us about how sainst don't have any fun.

[Madeleine]

I love the saints, and that's one of the many reasons I love being Catholic. There's a saint for everything we can imagine! Saints are always being made (I'm reading now about one close to home here, Blessed Father Stanley Rother from a small farming town in Oklahoma who is one of our first American martyrs, who died in 1981 while ministering to the native population in Guatemala. The book is Love in a Fearful Land by Henri Nouwen.) We visited his home parish this past summer. It's a very sacred place, and gave my husband and me a great sense of peace as we left for home.

[Marcia]

Well said. I'm not familiar with Blessed Rother -- I found your testimony to be very moving. Thanks for sharing.

[Mariangel]

John wrote: "Saints are the most interesting people, the most creative people, the most trustable people, the most happy people in the world." Is this true, and why is it so different from what the world world would tell us about how saints don't have any fun.


Well, I don't think anyone would say that Fr. Damien had any fun living in the leper colony, and it was a really hard decision for him. All the other things are true: interesting, creative, trustable and even happy. But it has never been a saint's goal to have fun. :P

[Manuel]

There is a new collection of YA stories by Corinna Turner, whose book "I am Margaret" we read some time ago. The collection is called "Friends in high places," a title which has a lot to do with this discussion thread.

Her first book in this series is titled The Boy Who Knew (Carlo Acutis). It is based on the story of Carlo Acutis, who was recognized as a Blessed last October 11. I strongly recommend you to read this book.

I have had the honor of helping Corinna with the translation of this wonderful book into Spanish.

[Mariangel]

Here are a few Chesterton quotes about saints that illustrate what the intro post is asking:

Why they are the most interesting people:

“The transition from the good man to the saint is a sort of revolution; by which one for whom all things illustrate and illuminate God becomes one for whom God illustrates and illuminates all things.”
― G.K. Chesterton, Saint Francis of Assisi

As for the next quote, some people would consider St. Thomas Aquinas's answer as "not having any fun":

“St Thomas loved books and lived on books... When asked for what he thanked God most, he answered simply, ‘I have understood every page I ever read’.”
― G.K. Chesterton, Saint Thomas Aquinas

But of course, there has to be a saint who lives on books, the same as there has to be a saint who is illiterate, or any other quality you want. That's why they are all different and interesting.

[Manuel]

The section on extra-terrestrials is, of course, fiction, as Kreeft himself indicates at the beginning. However, to a point, it can be considered as fictional non-fiction, for it tries to make a point. I think Kreeft has left himself be influenced too much by C.S. Lewis's novels "Out of the silent planet" and "Perelendra" when he says the following:

I then asked a theological question: Were these races fallen like ours or unfallen? And the answer that I heard, or saw, was that they all were as innocent as unfallen Eve. None had come to this place by my road, the long, hard, painful road of rebellion and repentance.

Of course, on this matter, my own position (or belief) is as fictional as Kreeft's. But it's exactly the opposite. I think (or believe) that every possible extraterrestrial intelligence we may find in the future (if any) will be exactly as fallen as we are.

And I'm saying this (my real belief on this matter) even though I actually seemed to hold the opposite position in my own novel "Under an orange sky," also influenced by "Out of the silent planet," which was read by this club several years ago.

[Fonch]

Hello i want that you know that unfortunatelly i Will not be able to Read this book but i want to say two things. The First is that in the topic of the aliens i totally agree with the Professor (Manuel Alfonseca) we have a fictional example with the novel "The Sparrows" by Doria Rusell that currently she is not Catholic she is jew, but she wrote This novel being Catholic the second It is that i want to break a Spear in favor of Peter Kreeft, unfortunatelly Kreeft has not translated to spanish a lot only three books i have Read two books. This year i have Read Symbol and Substance This thing i said to the Professor in my opinion This book is nowadays it is the best not fictional reading of This year for me with the "City of God" by Saint Augustine of Hippo.

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

Fonch, I too agree with Manuel that alien races would, if they existed, most likely be fallen. My personal experience has borne out the hard fact that the rare exceptions are the devout and - above us all - the saints, over against fallen humanity.

I don’t think, though, that saints are necessarily happier, but more focused on Divine goodness - and hence share more of God’s light in their everyday lives.

[Jill]

It's not like saints are born that way. The ones we know anything about had enormous struggles, against sin/weakness as well as adversity. e.g. Many weren't "smart" enough to be ordained, many raised large families before entering religious life, some were enslaved, some never got to do what they felt strongly called to do... Everyone can find a special friend with whom to identify, usually several along life's journey.
His personal story about Bethlehem is intriguing.
very minor point, but how does he know angels are "innumerable" or even more numerous than human beings?

[Manuel]

Jill wrote: "how does he know angels are "innumerable" or even more numerous than human beings?"

Hebrews 12:22: But what you have come to is Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival...

Another translation: But ye have come unto Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels...

[Manuel]

Jill wrote: "It's not like saints are born that way. The ones we know anything about had enormous struggles, against sin/weakness as well as adversity. e.g. Many weren't "smart" enough to be ordained, many raised large families before entering religious life..."

You appear to be saying that raising large families before entering religious life is something saints have to fight against. Read the book Married Saints and Blesseds: Through the Centuries and you'll see how many saints had large families and were never ordered, and even so they came to be saint. Just to name one we have been talking about indirectly in the discussion of this book: St. Louis King of France (I am referring to the book "The bridge of San Luis Rey," commented in another thread).

[Frances]

A saint for our times: St. Thomas More. Husband and father.

[Manuel]

Frances wrote: "A saint for our times: St. Thomas More. Husband and father."

And he is the Saint Patron of politicians and statesmen :-)

[Frances]

I wanted to leave that part out. 😊

[John]

Manuel wrote: "Frances wrote: "A saint for our times: St. Thomas More. Husband and father."

And he is the Saint Patron of politicians and statesmen :-)"

Hmmm, perhaps we don't have enough people praying to him for intercession.

[Jill]

I certainly didn't mean to imply that there can't be saints for whom marriage and family is their vocation and their way to holiness. In fact, getting each other to heaven is one primary reason for getting married! My point just had to do with the circuitous ways on which saints are often led.

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

I like your point, Jill. And it is especially applicable to our age of widespread misinformation!

[Fonch]

The politic is a bit amoral :-).

[Marcia]

I must "shout out" two of my favorites: the parents of St. Thérèse of Lisieux.

On Sunday, October 18, 2015, Pope Francis presided at Mass in St. Peter’s Square which included the Rite of Canonization for Sts. Zelie and Louis Martin. The Martins had been beatified earlier on October 19, 2008.

The Pope stated in his homily, “The holy spouses Louis Martin and Marie-Azelie Guerin practiced Christian service in the family, creating day by day an environment of faith and love which nurtured the vocations of their daughters, among whom was Saint Therese of the Child Jesus." They are the first-ever married couple with children to be canonized in the same ceremony.

[Manuel]

Marcia wrote: "I must "shout out" two of my favorites: the parents of St. Thérèse of Lisieux.

On Sunday, October 18, 2015, Pope Francis presided at Mass in St. Peter’s Square which included the Rite of Canoniza..."

Yes, they are also mentioned in the book Married Saints and Blesseds: Through the Centuries, although, at the time this book was published, they were only Blessed, not Saints.

[Mariangel]

By the way, the book about Married Saints and Blesseds is free on Formed.

[Manuel]

Jill wrote: "I certainly didn't mean to imply that there can't be saints for whom marriage and family is their vocation and their way to holiness. In fact, getting each other to heaven is one primary reason for..."

Sorry, I thought what you said could be interpreted that way.

[Marcia]

Dear Manuel (and others): As an artist, I've been interested in building up a body of work on the Communion of Saints -- seeking a way to engage a contemporary audience, revive interest in the saints and challenge my skills. I would be happy to share a few images, but I don't know how to do it within the context of this discussion. I don't believe there is a way to post images. (As an aside, I'm looking for more saints to paint, after understanding the significance of their lives to individual believers. I would love to hear your nominations.) As a p.s. I'm not interested in selling my work. There is no promotional angle here. This is my spiritual journey with hundreds of amazing individuals. Marcia W-S

[Manuel]

Marcia wrote: "Dear Manuel (and others): As an artist... I'm looking for more saints to paint, after understanding the significance of their lives to individual believers. I would love to hear your nominations."

You've got a few in the previous comments:

1. Blessed Father Stanley Rother
2. St. Damien of Molokai
3. Blessed Carlo Acutis
4. St. Thomas More

Plus Sts. Zelie and Louis Martin, parents of Thérèse de Lisieux, which you suggested.

[Marcia]

Thank you, Manuel. I've done a large painting on St. Damien -- and I've been working on a companion piece of St. Damien's associate -- the lesser known St. Marianne Cope -- which to date has not worked out. (My husband I have been diagnosed with Covid -- so I've had to hit the pause button.) I will let your other suggestions percolate in my thoughts and prayers. God bless.

[Jill]

St. Josephine Bakhita
Sister Thea Bowman
Dorothy Day
Sts. Felicity and Perpetua
Mother Maria Skobtzova
St. Teresa Benedicta (Edith Stein)
Father Augustus Tolton
St. Katharine Drexel

[Marcia]

Great list. The challenge is to how to interpret their lives. I've done St. Josephine Bakhita. And, I did an interpretation of Dorothy Day -- a homeless woman with one of Dorothy Day's quote scrawled on the wall. They are posted at my website www.marciawhitney-schenck.

Jill, I'll think about the others. I will have an exhibit at the Catholic Theological Union in Chicago next fall -- and I know that I absolutely must do Father Tolton. Looks like from these suggestions, I have a lot of work to do.

[Jill]

Wow! Thank you for sharing this link. Your art is amazing, so varied!
I'm happy to see Protestant heroes included as well. Hudson and Maria Taylor?
Of minor importance, but my maiden name is Whitney (from North Adams MA).

[Marcia]

That's amazing. I know the Whitneys were strong in Massachusetts. My grandfather Charles Whitney was a hired hand in Kansas -- married the farmer's daughter, and they homesteaded in Eastern Montana. My father, Glenn Whitney, was a music teacher in Spokane, Washington.

[Jill]

My dad came in the middle of 14 children (11 survived to adulthood, 8 boys and 3 girls) but he was the one named for his Dad, Sceva Earl. His mom Elspbth Lawson, was Scottish. I have colorful stories about her but not much memory or recollection about Grandpa. My dad worked for GE, starting in NYC at entry level and eventually became an executive, mostly in New Jersey, where I grew up.
I have a manuscript for a book about women from many different Christian traditions but was never able to market it, too ecumenical for all the publishers I tried. Some excerpted chapters about "their" women (Quakers took Elizabeth Fry, etc.).

[Marcia]

I would be happy to read your manuscript, if you wish. Besides the exhibit at the Catholic Theological Union in the fall, I will have another exhibit in 2022 at Fourth Presbyterian Church -- the idea is that instead of a genealogical tree through men's ancestry, it will be a tree through the spirit of women and Elizabeth Fry would definitely interest me!! Publishing these days is a tarpit -- all publishers are looking for are last year's bestsellers.

[Jill]

Unfortunately, I don't currently have the manuscript in a form where I can send it to you.

[Marcia]

No problem. :)

[John]

Marcia wrote: "That's amazing. I know the Whitneys were strong in Massachusetts. My grandfather Charles Whitney was a hired hand in Kansas -- married the farmer's daughter, and they homesteaded in Eastern Montana..."

Any link in there to a Minneapolis attorney, Arthur Whitney? No familial link, but he is the Whitney of Dorsey & Whitney, the law firm at which I toil.

[Marcia]

Maybe a connection somewhere--I haven't gotten the genealogy itch-- no kids to pass on the info -- supposedly Whitney goes back to the Normandy Invasion -- a certain White Knight.