SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
Group Reads Discussions 2020
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"Gideon the Ninth" - Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
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For those who want to read old buddy read comments, the buddy read thread is here. It is now a series thread starting with Harrow the Ninth, so those who want to continue the series can jump over there :)
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Gideons repeated attempts to runaway at the start of the book and her general attitude towards those who have power over her are clashing with the friendship /understanding that seems to develop later in the book. I wasn't to believe that I've missed something that justifies overlooking systematic oppression, but I am not at all hopeful.
I really do like the writing style and the banter though. I need more joyous swearing in my genre fiction (and my nonfiction). I need more than that though.
1. What did you think of the magic?I like the magic system although it is, unlike most of the things in this book, relatively restrictive. This house can do that, another house can do this and so on. But I like magic systems with relatively clear rules. Plus, I'm a sucker for necromancers and the Ninth are as necromancer-y as it gets, so of course I love them the most.
2. What did you think of the world?
I already wrote this in my review for the book, I'd call the world building cryptic but interesting. Like many things in this book, it's a bit all over the place. So, Gideon lives on a planet that is basically a giant tomb but somehow she managed to get her hands on some serious porn magazines? How? Is there a kiosk? Anyway, I might be overthinking this. Overall, the world/universe gave me a kind of Warhammer 40k feeling, especially regarding the aesthetics. Tomb worlds, lots of skulls and all that.
3. What did you think of the writing choices/dialogue?
This is probably one of the most controversial points about the book. It took me a bit to get used to the switches between modern colloquial English as used mostly by Gideon and your typical fantasy speech, but it somehow works. That's probably one of the most prominent recurring features of this book: things that shouldn't really work in the same book somehow still do. I totally understand if people see it differently though.
4. What did you think of the relationships?
At first I found the relationship between Gideon and Harrowhark immature and even a bit annoying and I wasn't sure if I could stand Gideon's constant insolence for a whole book. But well, their relationship IS rather immature, they are basically teenagers after all. It somehow evened out throughout the book though and when Gideon and Harrow finally had their heart to heart, it felt really...well...hearfelt.
5. What did you think of the end?
Emotional? Tragic? Somehow totally fitting and in character? All of this? I am curious what will happen next and hope we'll see some more of the world. I haven't yet started Harrow the Ninth though, because some of the (spoiler free) reviews I read scare me a bit.
For me the best part was the atmosphere. Once I managed to find my bearings between cryptic world-building, challenging language choices and way too many characters to remember at once, I felt myself fully submerged every time I sat down to read another chapter. Somehow the combination of the elements just worked for me.
I found this book a real struggle to start with. I was very torn between wanting to like it and actually liking it.The magic was interesting, but I did wonder exactly how many bones the necromancers needed to cart around with them, and how they carted them.
I thought the world wasn't fleshed out enough. I was constantly wondering about the structure of the society, and whether it had a lot of bearing on why people did what they did. By the end I could see some structure, but the slow reveal took away from the story for me.
The end was...I don't know...not great? From my perspective, it was unsatisfying. I don't really have much of a desire to read the rest of the series. Maybe I'm not the right age to get the pop culture references, so perhaps that's part of the lack in it for me.
Leonie wrote: "I found this book a real struggle to start with. I was very torn between wanting to like it and actually liking it.The magic was interesting, but I did wonder exactly how many bones the necromanc..."
I think Harrow only needs a couple of bones to wield her magic and create much bigger constructs/skeletons out of them, at least that's how I understood it.
Regarding the world I agree and disagree at the same time. Yes, it is rather cryptic and I often wondered where the "normal" people were. Many things were only hinted at and sometimes I wasn't sure whether I missed something, whether I discovered a plot hole or whether something simply wasn't yet elaborated on. But overall it was interesting enough to make me want to discover more of the world. It's a weird book, that's for sure.
I've read this book twice now--once because of hype, and the second time because I try to read every single Hugo nominee and it got nominated so I figured I'd give it another chance. I wrote my thoughts about the book on my blog alongside my reviews of the rest of the 2020 Hugo nominations. I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade who liked this book, but I very much did not. Here are my thoughts:First, I do not like pop culture references in my sci-fi/fantasy. Veiled references? Sure. If they make sense for the story? Absolutely. But straight up pop-culture references in a novel that doesn’t have a very good explanation for how they come into play for the main character? Hard no.
Second, the novel ends up reading exactly like it sounds in the blurb: it’s a sci-fi space necromancer with a sword and cool tattoos and a lesbian who kills stuff and cusses and doesn’t care but maybe she does care more than you know and there’s magic and space castles and everything that’s awesome like skeletons and badassery and it’s there! Whew. There’s no such thing as too much cool stuff thrown together. I firmly believe that. But it has to actually work together, and here we somehow have all of that cool stuff in it without ever having a main character or interesting enough main plot for me to care whatsoever. Moreover, since the cool stuff is being hurled at the reader at a breakneck pace, one can never really sit back and just absorb how awesome it should be before you’re getting confronted by the next thing.
There’s a gothic space palace! What more do you want!? I know: I want to actually have that described to me. I want to envision how gothic it is. I want to feel its movement through space–or the mechanization that keep it in place. I want to read about all of these awesome ideas, not just have them pitched to me as one-liners and then thrown onto an increasing heap of ideas that are never fully realized. And this is what I think made the book so terribly disappointing to me. It had so many cool ideas–it oozed with them–but it never really cashed them in.
J.W. wrote: "I've read this book twice now--once because of hype, and the second time because I try to read every single Hugo nominee and it got nominated so I figured I'd give it another chance. I wrote my tho..."It’s been months since I read the book, but I think I had much the same problem, though perhaps came down a little more on intrigued than did not like. Intrigued enough to try and figure out what others see in it.
The confusing mansion reminded me of the castle in Gormenghast (a book I never finished). At some point I gave up trying to figure out how the building fit together. So much running down hallways from decrepit room to decrepit room. It really sounded like the whole realm is decaying, from Harrow’s planet, to this mansion.
I’m pretty much out of the pop culture loop, so that probably added to my disorientation. The gradual whittling away of the cast of characters left me confused as to who was still alive. It really felt like a bunch of cleverness thrown in a blender and poured. I also found the ending profoundly unsatisfying, not just because Gideon died, but Harrow didn’t seem particularly moved by it. Or maybe I just never developed any sense of Harrow. I have no desire to read the next book.
J.W. wrote: "I've read this book twice now--once because of hype, and the second time because I try to read every single Hugo nominee "I've read it once but I fully agree that while ideas are interesting and unusual their development/structuring/fleshing is lacking
I'm so glad that I'm not alone in not loving this book. I felt like everyone was praising it and I just felt kind of meh throughout.I mostly agree with J.W. I found the pop culture references misplaced here as well. Otherwise it had an OK reading flow but these always threw me off. I found most of the book quite boring because nothing was really explored. How does the necromancy work? What is the training like? How are the houses organized? What are the cultural concepts? What are the differences? There is so much thrown at the reader but it's always just a sentence here and there. This meant that the big reveals in the end didn't evoke any kind of emotion from me. Why should I care that the skeletons are animated differently when no one explained the rules of how they should be animated? Same goes for the creation of the lyctors. Supposedly, this was a shocking reveal but nothing was really known about what the lyctors were meant to be or thought to be in that culture so, again, meh.
Also, although I'm always happy for queer characters in books, I found Gideon really cliché. She's just the biggest, buffest knight who eats push-ups for breakfast, just wants to kill things with her huuuge sword and gets distracted by every pair of tits she sees. Really? Your peers are being killed by space ghost monsters but you notice how short someone's nighty is. I found that quite annoying.
I liked the concept of space necromancers with their knights and the book gets points for diversity but all in all I was very underwhelmed. It's disappointing because I think the concept had potential.
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Gideon is OVER THE TOP and I could see how that would be incredibly grating. For me it hit just about the right note of authorial insouciance. Slang and meme references from now wouldn't make sense if this was meant to be taken "seriously" and so I didn't. That meant that the sotto voce teens and the torqued Ninth and all the rest felt organic to a world that was completely inorganic.
I did think the relationships were a bit of a miss for me. I wanted a little more build up between enemies to lovers/friends/loyal to the point of suicide, and the end was a bit of a shock. Really I think build up of the narrative was the weakness for me in this story, while the "levels" of the videogame dungeon were brilliant.
My grand dream is that the team that did Witcher takes this series on and makes a freakin epic 20 person max mmorpg.
Another book where I get both sides of the opinions and when I think about it, it is surprising that I liked it, but I did.The part that grabbed me and kept me entertained was the irreverence, the banter and the whole frenemy thing. I find while reading Harrow the Ninth that I really enjoy Muir's writing but as others have pointed out, her story/structure could be a little less chaotic and actually have a point.
I am planning on reading the third one when it comes out which isn't typical for me, I start far more series than I finish.
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Maybe I'll come back to Muir when she's writing stories that walk more familiar paths. I can't overstate how much I enjoy a character that unleashes language unsuitable for church when things are going to shit. It makes it easier to believe the absurd things.
@Allison: I totally had that video game feeling as well. I mentioned that somewhere in my updates actually, because it was so striking. It started when they introduced the keys. Solve a puzzle, get a key, advance to the next room. Boss fight! Win that, get a new key, etc. (And I would absolutely play that videogame, btw.) I just didn't work for me in that context. Same with the snarky teenagers. I usually really enjoy that, it just somehow didn't work for me here. That's what makes it kinda frustrating - it had all the hallmarks of a book that I would enjoy but it always just missed mark for me.@Hank: I'm sorry to hear hear that Harrow the Ninth has a similarly chaotic story structure. I sorta contemplated reading it because I was hoping that the story would be better and the combination of the two very flat and opposite characters would maybe make for a more interesting, well rounded one.
Yep, definitely skip Harrow Sebastian. It is even more incomprehensible than Gideon and missing Gideon is not quite as fun. I did not like it as much.
Allison wrote: "I'll add my voice to those entertained. I think a lot of my enjoyment is because this felt to me like a really great computer game where you get to be badass and also saucy, and the world slowly op..."Your idea for an MMORPG works especially well considering that with 9 houses and a cavalier+ necromancer for each house, there'd be at least 18 playable characters. and then since each house has it's own unique style of necromancy, you would actually profit from having as many possible players because each one would bring something unique to the group. good idea!
Just hit 20% so the things I WANT this story to be are starting to come into focus. The bit where Gideon watched their shuttles being chucked into the drink was intriguing, and may have been the first hook that really got itself into me. It made me hope that my being fairly lost up to that point wasn't a hindrance; clearly their reasons for being there were misrepresented and now I just want this to be Necromancer Clue, with Teacher played by Tim Curry.
No space yet. Hope there's space. I was told there'd be space.
I hate that Gideon and Harrow hate each other. It makes me hate them both. Obviously their relationship will repair over the course of the story, but it's still a tough place to start from.
Too many modern expressions. It's taking me a bit out of the story.
On the other hand, this passage exists, which is evidently a popular one because it was easily found online:
“Everybody was poised in readiness for the outlined syllabus, and scholarship made her want to die. There would be some litany of how breakfast would take place every morning at this time, and then there’d be study with the priests for an hour, and then Skeleton Analysis, and History of Some Blood, and Tomb Studies, and, like lunchtime, and finally Double Bones with Doctor Skelebone. The most she could hope for was Swords, Swords II, and maybe Swords III.”
Based on their relationship, the level of sacrifice that Gideon makes at the end doesn't add up at ALL. 0% believability. The physical gesture at the end has a 0% chance of believability as well. NOPE. Within the framework of a world and social constructs etc....even if it's fantasy, it has to make sense. Maybe there were just too many pages and it could have been narrowed down (Harrowed down---get it? That joke is better than a lot of what I had to flip through to get to the good stuff).Everything else was fairly decent. I didn't understand why the first chapter was such a mess. It was a mess. Super chaotic and disorganized in the first 5 pages or so if memory serves. I got through the novel because I powered through it. I'd joined a book club and I needed to get through it for the meeting (which I never even went to)....so that was my motivation. That's also how I knew the book existed at all.
This is a strong 3 and weak 4. I'll put it on the 4 side. I'm still flabbergasted that the relationship with Harrow and Gideon wasn't shown to be stronger given the sacrifice at the end, unless the author's sociopathic. That would explain a lot. Human relationships have to grow. Loyalty and devotion don't grow out of thin air. Even if you try to take an S&M angle, there wasn't a sufficient connection evidenced even from that light.
Christopher Kubasik writes a great trilogy for the Earthdawn series of novels (Mostly in the one entitled "Mother Speaks" if memory serves) that does an excellent job of an example of what might drive Gideon at the end of Gideon the 9th---the problem is NOTHING like that is present or eluded to ANYWHERE in Tamsyn Muir's novel.
Given how the rest of the novel is setup, I'm surprised the author flopped in this manner, but less so in light of the failure of the sequel :( {Just take my word for it...}
I'll put this at the absolute end as its the least relevant, but this novel was touted as Lesbians in space or some such. I saw no evidence for that moniker (it's paraphrased), either in Gideon the 9th or the sequel. I'd have liked the hype to be driven by SOMETHING / ANYTHING in the story. Let me find it to be most clear: “Lesbian necromancers explore a haunted gothic palace in space!” —Charles Stross. (from Amazon.) NOPE! I call shenanigans.
Stephan wrote: "Based on their relationship, the level of sacrifice that Gideon makes at the end doesn't add up at ALL. 0% believability. The physical gesture at the end has a 0% chance of believability as well. N..."On your last note about the cover quote that doesn't actually fit the story, I believe Muir actually addressed that and said she found it funny that that's what became the cover quote. I can't find her actual quote on it though. I would say that there are points that suggest Gideon being lesbian, but its certainly nothing so overt as the cover suggests.
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What do others think?
The stated-as-lesbian part was one of the things that threw me off! Considering how this being "lesbian necromancers" was mentioned in every single review and pitch that I read for this book before reading the book myself, I was expecting a solid romantic subplot. I waited and waited for the romantic subplot and got. . .vague yearning. Dang it! Overall I felt the concept for the book was so cool, I love the houses and their bone magic, I love that it's a spooky palace, I love that it's all in space. I even love that my paper copy of the book had black edges (black edges, how cool! How do you get that in your book!?). . . and I was entirely confused for like 60% of the book. I could not figure out the layout of the spooky palace. I could not deep dive into the fast-paced cultural reference talk to understand what was really being said. I didn't even have a great idea of what was happening most of the time. (And come on, where was the romantic subplot?)
Allison wrote: "I...would say this reads pretty heavily towards at least 2 of the women characters being attracted to women. I think it's at least as queer as most books are hetero when the main character talks ab..."Thank you Allison, that's an excellent way to put it. A bit like what Jessica and you said, the degree to which this aspect of the book appeared in reviews suggests that it plays a much more integral/aggressive role than it does. I am however ecstatic to read a good Y/A (I'm Y/A and read it as such - interpretations may vary) book that included LGBTQ characters without making that the core focus of the book.
Alabaster wrote: "Allison wrote: " I am however ecstatic to read a good Y/A (I'm Y/A and read it as such - interpretations may vary) book that included LGBTQ characters without making that the core focus of the book. "Yeah, that's a really good point. If they hadn't played it up in pitches and reviews, it would have been nice to just have "Oh, also the characters are gay" as a side thing, since hetero attraction is always a side thing.
And I personally didn't read it as YA, I read as adult - though the characters do seem to be YA age range. (This might be a continuation from the other chat)
Alabaster wrote: "Allison wrote: "I...would say this reads pretty heavily towards at least 2 of the women characters being attracted to women. I think it's at least as queer as most books are hetero when the main ch..."Fair enough. I should have clarified, but my point was mostly that the vast majority of YA books that contain both LGBTQ and fantasy aspects read as "An LGBTQ book. and oh yeah, there's a bit of fantasy", instead of "a fantasy book, and the MC happens to be LGBTQ". I don't know if that's as rare to see in the adult book world, but it was refreshing to see as a usual YA reader.
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Regarding the "lesbian necromancers in a haunted space castle" blurb by Charles Stross, I think it gave many people a wrong idea about what this book would be about.Also, it's mostly just outright wrong. As far as I can tell, Gideon is the only character that is obviously lesbian. And she isn't a necromancer. Furthermore, the fact that she is lesbian isn't really explored in any great detail and doesn't really have any significant effect on the story. She just is and that's totally fine, but the blurb makes it out to be a bigger part of the story than it actually is. So, if people expect a LGBTQ romance subplot due to this blurb, of course they'll be disappointed.
And while there is space travel, the castle is neither really haunted, at least not in the context of this universe, nor is it any more in space than...well...a supermarket. It's on a planet. Which is in space. That's it.
So yeah, I think while the advertisement is certainly a looker, it doesn't really manage to actually represent the book.
I LOVED the fact that Gideon was amazing with her sword. That whole thing where she has to use the rapier, and how she is when she gets her real sword back (the two-hander)...that was an excellent touch. Movie-quality stuff.Also, I should have mentioned that I 100% advocate that anyone who enjoyed the first novel read the sequel. In a similar fashion to how Brandon Sanderson's "Way of Kings" makes up for his shortcomings in the last 200 pages or so (I just finished that one. I'm off to that thread to complain over there lol)...the last 1/5 of Harrow the 9th is worth reading.
Well, that certainly was a thing.I will say that it was very readable, breezy even. But overall I think it failed at what it attempted to do in a lot of ways.
The beginning third was a struggle. It was a somewhat slow-paced, ill-explained setting weighed down by excessive foul language and snark. Later on, the tasks/keys and such proved to be a struggle to get invested in for me personally, especially with the emergence of so many ill-formed and interconnecting character relationships that ultimately amounted to murder-fodder.
Speaking of, the murder-mystery plotline, while being the driving force of the plot, also ended up ultimately failing at what it was attempting due to the sudden emergence of the "true villain". Had Dulcina, the real one, ended up being the murderer for her own reasons I think the whole story would have landed a bit better.
Regarding the characters themselves: Gideon was insufferable from the start, and continued to be so throughout the entire book. Harrowhawk was a decent to good character, though she too was mostly insufferable until her "reveal". The rest of the characters sat between "prop" and "prop with a goal".
Normally I wouldn't have had much of a problem with this, a story centered primarily around two people is perfectly fine. But it isn't fine when both main characters personalities consist of "snarky and bitter commentary" and little else.
Now, that said. I feel like I'm definitely being a little harsh here, since I honestly think the author's voice is above average, the concept interesting, and her prose mostly entertaining. I think my main problem with it is what actually happens with the plot. It makes me think while I'm not a huge fan of 'Gideon the Ninth', I may really enjoy something else the author writes on some later date.
So all told, I'll say this. Gideon the Ninth is...fine. I'm sure plenty of people will enjoy it, but I'm personally looking for a little more than what's presented here.
I’ll join those who found the advertising misleading in the extreme, and I’ll second Jessica’s vague yearning. Throughout reading the book, I kept wondering when the queer part started. LOL And space...when does that come in? I was also unsatisfied by Gideon’s sacrifice at the end. I could see where she was beginning to accept and embody the role of cavalier over just enjoying hitting things with her big sword, but to essentially commit suicide to protect Harrow? Why would she do that? It didn’t feel like Gideon had reached that level of service to another person or ideal.
Now that it’s been mentioned, the book does have a video game feel, and for me that means no real depth to the characters, just clever, snarky lines, and lots of action. Overall it just felt pretty shallow.
Stephan wrote: "I LOVED the fact that Gideon was amazing with her sword. That whole thing where she has to use the rapier, and how she is when she gets her real sword back (the two-hander)...that was an excellent ..."It is interesting story-wise, but, as many HEMA folk will point out, quite unrealistic (not more unrealistic than necromancy)
Oleksandr wrote: "It is interesting story-wise, but, as many HEMA folk will point out, quite unrealistic (not more unrealistic than necromancy)"What's HEMA? One thing that came up was Medieval Martial arts. Is it that? Are you saying that in the absence of armor that a rapier would actually be superior? (In contrast to Gideon somehow proving superior to the others with her two-hander? Was it a broadsword?)
I read this book a while ago, so I don't remember the exact details. I do however remember that I liked it to a certain point and I agree with most of the opinions that's written here. I didn't either notice the hbtq aspects while reading but I did notice that they are in space. I was not a big fan of the ending wich to me felt a big like: I've got to many characters, let's kill them of". Now I'm trying to get through harrow the ninth, wich is hard because my favorite thing about gideon the ninth was gideon herself. I never really cared for harrow. The space element get's more apparent here aswell but it's a bit tough to get into unfortunatly.
Stephan wrote: "What's HEMA? One thing that came up was Medieval Martial arts. Is it that? Are you saying that in the absence of armor that a rapier would actually be superior? (In contrast to Gideon somehow proving superior to the others with her two-hander?"HEMA - Historical European Martial Arts - usually it is broader than just Europe, but usually they try on the basis of data we can collect now (manuscripts, arts, reconstruction). Yes rapier is superior w/o armor, it is much faster. Moreover it is not clear what for she was trained - is it 1-to-1 duels or multi-person melee for example
Ryan wrote: "Yeah, I really liked sweary Gideon and her over the top ways, but to end up sacrificing herself after her rebellious start was annoying. I'm really disappointed in that turn of events."I think the first few chapters suffer a bit on reflection after going through the book. While Gideon is trying to escape, what she really seems to want is some kind of acceptance and belonging. Her relationship with Harrow, the frenemy description seems apropos, is complicated on both sides due to their history.
Gideon has to know when she had the option to go on the ship, but instead takes Harrow’s offer to get a better deal, that it almost certainly was going to go wrong. This was her eighty-something attempt? With all the other references in this book, has no one ever seen a Charlie Brown cartoon where he tries to kick the football?
Once Gideon is a cavalier she takes it seriously, despite the snark on the surface which suggests she doesn’t. I think she does this because her necromancer is Harrow instead of someone else; it starts with the idea she’s not going to screw it up and give Harrow the satisfaction of knowing she screwed up, and becomes more nuanced by the end.
Or I drink too much when I read this. Could go either way, really.
Additionally, about the sacrifice — what were Gideon’s options in that last moment? They are under attack and Harrow’s shield thing is not going to last long, and there’s no sense there is any rescue on the horizon. Aren’t the options either to do what she did, or do nothing and everyone dies? I’m going by memory here, so if there was another reasonable option, apologies for forgetting it.
Joon wrote: "and now I just want this to be Necromancer Clue, with Teacher played by Tim Curry. No space yet. Hope there's space. I was told there'd be space. "
I love the idea of Tim Curry and Necromancer Clue.
(view spoiler)
When I first started reading this it was a bit of a slog. In fact I started it a couple of times. Once I got past the beginning I was fine. Confused at times but fine. Kept losing track of who everyone was in the “haunted castle”. And yes I kept wondering where the space thing was coming in (even though they got there in spaceships and they were on other planets (or were they?)). The story went along well enough to keep me amused and still reading.
The ending wasn’t that confusing to me. Gideon (and Harrow) had realised that it was always them. The two of them together. They were each other’s companions even though one was basically a Princess and the other a soldier. Always had been. They were the only two of their age in the whole place. Even though they hated each other they realised that it wasn’t really hate. Gideon did the only thing she could to save the person she loved. Well that’s how I saw it.
Jon wrote: "Ryan wrote: "Yeah, I really liked sweary Gideon and her over the top ways, but to end up sacrificing herself after her rebellious start was annoying. I'm really disappointed in that turn of events...."I fully agree with that assessment. Yes, Gideon might outwardly behave like a snarky loudmouth, but her relationship with Harrow turns out to be much more complicated than the first few chapters suggest. And she actually DOES take her role as cavalier seriously, despite her constant yammering about the outfit and about having to use a rapier+gauntlet.
Also, she DOES want to belong because a very significant part of her discontent comes from loneliness. When she finds out that all this time Harrow was just as lonely and lost as her, I think it makes perfect sense that she decides to stand up for her in the end.
I can agree that the way the book was sold did a disservice expectations-wise. I personally loved it. After a plodding beginning, when it finally "clicked" for me, it REALLY clicked. It was an unexpected pleasant surprise. I've never had such a fast turnaround from, "What is this?" to "This is awesome!" before. As a bisexual woman, I have to say I was pleased to see a queer protagonist without having them be put into a relationship to "prove it".
I totally get how on the whole, it would not be some people's thing. With such an oddball style and characters, it's certainly bound to turn some people off. I've definitely fallen on the "ugh" side of these types of books before, which is why I was so pleased this one worked for me.
While I enjoyed the overall tone (and realize it can be divisive) and many of the characters, especially Gideon, the area I had problems with was the overall plot. Some mentioned resemblance to video games; I had the Zero Escape series in mind. That took me a bit to accept, and it’s not my favorite aspect, but I admit this would adapt well to an anime series or game.Overall though, a combination of little things like what’s up with how Gideon came to the ninth and got named bothered me, which may be a point in a later book, but given this book is Gideon and that’s an early point I wanted it more addressed here. Meanwhile, the missing bodies at the end was fine; that seemed obviously a point left to be picked up in the sequel.
The big thing though is what’s the deal with this challenge anyway by which I mean, if you take away Bad Guy Shenanigans (BGS), the initial setup still seems half-baked. The emperor wants/needs more lieutenants to step up, ok. They have to work through the challenges and figure how to do this and accept the process, fine. There’s only one key for each challenge and there’s no instruction on whether to work together or not: huh?
Either there should have been a key-per-group available if they did it solo, or one key yes but they state that working together is allowed. If most of the group kills each other off to get through the challenge, how does that help the emperor if only one makes it rather than, oh, 4 or 5 of them? I get the feeling either I missed something or the BGS purposely took away instructions to make the process more difficult? This is a main element I’m hoping will make more sense to me when I do a reread.
Oleksandr wrote: "SHEMA - Historical European Martial Arts - usually it is broader than just Europe, but usually they try on the basis of data we can collect now (manuscripts, arts, reconstruction). Yes rapier is superior w/o armor, it is much faster. Moreover it is not clear what for she was trained - is it 1-to-1 duels or multi-person melee for example"I agree wholeheartedly. I'm a martial artist, myself. I KNOW I have to make allowances for people writing fight scenes etc...that don't have any experience, so I do. It can be frustrating. It reminds me of my engineer friend watching one of the X-Men movies. She started laughing and was like "That's not how a bridge would bend!"
For every swing of a two handed sword, you would get hit with a rapier multiple times...mortally so. If memory serves there's another who has an additional weapon in her off-hand along with a rapier who would have simply won the fight, not drawn it. Gideon wouldn't have some "magic" way of fighting with her weapon, either. She'd be fighting just like the others with a different weapon. For illustrative purposes, it would be karate vs karate, not karate vs judo. Where'd the two-handed sword even come from? Their entire fighting culture's based on the rapier lol.
I can talk about the other problems at extreme length, but I'll refrain lol
35%. I've figured it out. They're on the island from "Lost", right?Do they meet Hurley? I hope they meet Hurley.
Finished it. Liked it as a whole. I listened to the audible which was probably not the best choice for me for this book. I'm a visual learner and I had trouble keeping some of the different houses straight and their members straight. Need to see their names.Wasn't that wild about the ending. Gideon was favorite and I was sorry to see her go. I would read a sequel for her but I don't think for Harrow.
Kari wrote: "I can agree that the way the book was sold did a disservice expectations-wise. I personally loved it. After a plodding beginning, when it finally "clicked" for me, it REALLY clicked. It was an unexpected pleasant surprise. I've never had such a fast turnaround from, "What is this?" to "This is awesome!" before."That's exactly what happened to me as well. I was really disappointed and confused for at least the first 50 pages (maybe more), and then I ended up putting the book on my list of favourites of all time.
Jon wrote: "I think the first few chapters suffer a bit on reflection after going through the book. While Gideon is trying to escape, what she really seems to want is some kind of acceptance and belonging. Her relationship with Harrow, the frenemy description seems apropos, is complicated on both sides due to their history.."
That's a very accurate analysis. There was so much more to both Gideon and Harrow that met the eyes. They were two lonely teenagers that had to go through trauma that not many could handle. And it makes sense that they would find desperate solace in each other once they went through things together and finally opened up to each other, gained a better understanding of each other's perspectives. The changes in their dynamic were subtle throughout the story, but they were definitely there. And they were all the more pronounced taking into consideration both characters' strong defense mechanisms (Gideon's snark and Harrow's harshness). I actually cried at the scene at the pool, it was just so emotionally loaded for me.
So Gideon's sacrifice 100% makes sense to me, just like the Harrow's subsequent actions (explored in "Harrow the Ninth") make sense.
I'm surprised at the lack of terrible puns calling her "Gideon Cav"
Allison wrote: "Spoileriffic comments: go!"I read this a few months ago, so some of the detail is gone. I can at least answer the discussion questions, and respond to some of the group's comments in a bit.
1. What did you think of the magic?
Although the "school" of necromancy that each house used wasn't terribly clear to me, at the very least the Ninth's came through fairly well. It was just as visceral as it ought to be.
2. What did you think of the world?
Its being ten thousand years old was mentioned several times, but it didn't have that weighty sense of age that I've come to associate with places that are even just hundreds of years old. (Malazan and LotR are good counter-examples in fiction)
The immediate setting was well-done though. Even a few months out, vivid images of the facility, and especially the underground (yes?) mad science labs, still remain.
3. What did you think of the writing choices/dialogue?
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I am actually glad that I didn't recognize any of the meme-speak in this book. I recognized a couple in Harrow, and they threw me out of my reading groove.
I liked the mix of high-vocab/old-fashioned speech and bratty snark. It's not dissimilar to how I talk, at times, in form if not in detail: contemporary/social media slang and twenty-five-cent words in close companionship with each other.
4. What did you think of the relationships?
One of my favorite parts of the book. I liked how the relationships between the folk of the various houses and Gideon developed. In its own weird way, they started feeling like a family. A highly dysfunctional one, admittedly.
5. What did you think of the end?
It might have been necessary, especially when it comes to the series as a whole, but I didn't like it. :(
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Allison wrote: "I kinda hesitate to say this here given the tone of the conversation lol but I'd like to remind folks that this book was nominated as one of the best genre benders of the 21st century in our group ..."It says "of the 21st century," though... :/
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Westing Game (other topics)The Westing Game (other topics)
The Luminous Dead (other topics)
Harrow the Ninth (other topics)
Some questions to get us started:
1. What did you think of the magic?
2. What did you think of the world?
3. What did you think of the writing choices/dialogue?
4. What did you think of the relationships?
5. What did you think of the end?