1. Along the Way

[John]

1. Use this thread to share your thoughts and observations while reading Doors in the Walls of the World: Signs of Transcendence in the Human Story, or any comment that doesn't seem to fit any other topic.

[Mariangel]

After reading the Introduction, I find that all the ideas in it I have already encountered in C. S. Lewis’s writings, and that they impacted me more in the way Lewis expressed them.

[Jill]

It is very helpful to have him point out that all three philosophies accept Science and all it can learn about the material world, only differing about whether there is "more" than the material world. My children who have strayed from faith tend to espouse Science and see it in opposition to Religion, roughly equivalent for them to superstition and wishful thinking and defiance of, say, the CDC.

[Mariangel]

Jill, I don't know if your children would be open to reading this, but Fr. MacRae has some very good posts about how Science and Faith are not in opposition. Here's one, others are linked inside

https://beyondthesestonewalls.com/blo...

[Jill]

Mariangel, there must be more to this link, please.

[Mariangel]

Is it not working for you? It does for me. Let me try again:

Click here and let me know if it works

[Fergus, Weaver of Autistic Webs]

Jill, I too have a book that might help your kids. It’s called Rocks of Ages by the great science writer Stephen Jay Gould, and is inexpensively available on Audible.

In it, he says the Church and Science are the two Rocks of Ages. The Magisterium of the Church doesn’t deny the truths of science, and vice versa. It is the fiery exceptions and media which upset this applecart!

[Manuel]

In parts IV and V Kreeft shows that he has been deluded by transhumanists into believing that immortality in this life is possible as a result of science. He thinks it may be possible thanks to genetic engineering. This is just science fiction. I've tried to explode this idea in a thread of posts in my blog, such as this one: What is immortality.

Kreeft's delusion reminded me of a place in A Canticle for Leibowitz where the scientists of the new Renaissance believe (mistakingly) that a science fiction novel written before the Atomic Deluge was history, and that people were robots created by a previous intelligence that had disappeared.

[Manuel]

In part V-3 Kreeft says:

The literary critic or music critic is tempted merely to look at the work, but the reader or listener whose heart has been broken by it has looked along it. Think of two people in the Cave: one notices that there are windows in the walls and merely looks at them, as features of the Cave. The other looks through them at what is outside the Cave. It is not in the words or the music that we find the thing that breaks our hearts, but only through them.

This is influenced by C.S. Lewis article "Meditation in a toolshed," which is included in the collection "God in the Dock."

[John]

Manuel wrote: "In part V-3 Kreeft says:

The literary critic or music critic is tempted merely to look at the work, but the reader or listener whose heart has been broken by it has looked along it. Think of two ..."

Manuel,areyou saying that Kreeft has plagiarized Lewis?

[Manuel]

John wrote: "Manuel, are you saying that Kreeft has plagiarized Lewis?"

No, I am saying that Kreeft has been influenced by Lewis. He recognizes this at the beginning of his book, but does not bother to repeat it every time he takes ideas from Lewis, probably because that would make his book less readable.

I was simply pointing out which article by Lewis was the source of Kreeft's thought at this point. Perhaps Kreeft himself was not aware of this article when he wrote that part. In no case would this qualify as plagiarism.

I have modified my previous comment, to make it clearer.

[Mariangel]

Manuel wrote: "No, I am saying that Kreeft has been influenced by Lewis. He recognizes this at the beginning of his book, but does not bother to repeat it every time he takes ideas from Lewis"

Ideas from Lewis can be traced in many paragraphs of this book. Like Manuel said, Kreeft has sufficiently acknowledged Lewis's influence, even if he doesn't reference every single one.

For instance, in the chapter about saints, Kreeft writes:
"A third category of friends is comprised of the saints in Heaven. They are still human, but they are so perfectly human now that if we saw them (...) we would be so dazzled that we would be tempted to fall down and worship them".

This idea comes right out of the concluding paragraph of "The weight of glory" (in my opinion one of the very best essays by Lewis, which can be found complete here -it is only 8 pages):

"It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship"

[John]

Manuel wrote: "In parts IV and V Kreeft shows that he has been deluded by transhumanists into believing that immortality in this life is possible as a result of science. He thinks it may be possible thanks to gen..."

Manuel, I've finished Part IV now and don't see what you're alluding to. Perhaps it will become clear in Part V, but can you point me to the passages in Part IV that support this?

[Manuel]

John wrote: "Manuel, I've finished Part IV now and don't see what you're alluding to. Perhaps it will become clear in Part V, but can you point me to the passages in Part IV that support this?"

At section "The Joy of Death" he says: Technological (genetically engineered) immortality would also abolish joy, hope, religion, eternity, mysticism, poetry, and probably even more-than-animal sex.

This is again mentioned in Part V, section "Natural Arts" where he says: Unless death is abolished (probably by genetic engineering)... If and when death is abolished, I suspect that the Second Coming will follow very shortly...

He apparently considers "probable" the abolition of death by science (i.e. attaining immortality). I, who have looked at the question in detail, consider it unattainable by science, not just in the near future, but ever.

[John]

Manuel wrote: "John wrote: "Manuel, I've finished Part IV now and don't see what you're alluding to. Perhaps it will become clear in Part V, but can you point me to the passages in Part IV that support this?"

At..."

Thanks. I guess I didn't take Kreeft as being serious in those passages and didn't note them as you did. I read him as being dismissive of the idea, but then why bring it up. I agree with you that immortality is not feasible and is driven by the same desire to be like God that drives utopian desires for creating heaven on earth through political means.

[Fonch]

I can reply to This question although i have not Read this book of course that C.S. Lewis has influenced in Peter Kreeft, because Peter Kreeft has Read the C.S. Lewis's books besides he has written books about C.S. Lewis and J.R R. Tolkien some of way are collochios where Tolkien and Lewis discuss with other relevant characters. In the book which i have spoken Symbol and Substance Tolkien, Lewis, Billy Graham and the Chauffer discuss about theology also Mr. Kreeft wrote a biography about Tolkien unfortunatelly It was not translated to spanish The philosophy of Tolkien. Mr. Kreeft has been praised by the tolkienolofist Eduardo Segura Who with i argue on Christmas for his hostiles opinions about Joseph Pearce i have never forgiven to Mr. Segura. The format of several thinkers discussing reminds me powerfully to the spanish writer José Ramón Ayllón Who employs a very close way in his books.