Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
Heyer in General
>
Favourite Hero from a Heyer Novel & Why (part 2)
Sylvester (from "Sylvester), Alverstoke (from "Frederica"), and Sir Gareth (from "Sprig Muslin"). And I would say Alverstoke is my favorite. He had me swooning. The way he takes care of Frederica and her brothers just made me fall for him. Sir Gareth's wit and caring nature and Sylvester's growth and realization that he needs to change is why I love them.
Lauren wrote: "Sylvester (from "Sylvester), Alverstoke (from "Frederica"), and Sir Gareth (from "Sprig Muslin"). And I would say Alverstoke is my favorite. He had me swooning. The way he takes care of Frederica a..."Welcome to our group, Lauren. :)
I could quite happily end up with any of them really - even dodgy Dominic, though I’m not too keen on grumpy Charles Rivenhall. My top swoon worthy favourites are Dameral, Alverstoke, Beaumaris and Miles Calverleigh. I also love Sylvester and don’t think Phoebe deserves him.
Raccoe wrote: "I could quite happily end up with any of them really - even dodgy Dominic, though I’m not too keen on grumpy Charles Rivenhall. My top swoon worthy favourites are Dameral, Alverstoke, Beaumaris and..."Welcome, Raccoe!
Hi, Raccoe, are you new here? I am surprised to see someone saying Phoebe doesn't deserve Sylvester and don't feel that way at all, myself. I suppose they are both flawed, but he was - if anything - slightly more so. That arrogance that even his mother recognized!
Jackie wrote: "Nice to have you here, Lauren."Thank you so much!
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Sylvester (from "Sylvester), Alverstoke (from "Frederica"), and Sir Gareth (from "Sprig Muslin"). And I would say Alverstoke is my favorite. He had me swooning. The way he takes care..."Thank you so much!
Jackie wrote: "Hi, Raccoe, are you new here? I am surprised to see someone saying Phoebe doesn't deserve Sylvester and don't feel that way at all, myself. I suppose they are both flawed, but he was - if anythin..."
I agree. Sylvester grows so much throughout the book, and needed to do more growing than Phoebe. Sylvester is also I think 8 years older than Phoebe, so he really should have been more mature at that point.
Hi, yes I’m new here. Thanks for the welcome, it’s good to find fellow Heyer fans (addicts).Sylvester is arrogant at the start thinking he can just choose any bride and she’ll be pleased, but he’s also in a deep state of grief at losing his twin brother and is a very kind son. Phoebe humiliates him in a horrible way with her book and is the cause of his sister in law running off to France with his nephew and spreading those awful rumours that he’s a wicked uncle. He is the one who is censured for upsetting Phoebe at the ball and not handling it delicately, but I can’t blame him for being mad. She never speaks very nicely to him and I could never understand what he saw in her.
Raccoe wrote: "Hi, yes I’m new here. Thanks for the welcome, it’s good to find fellow Heyer fans (addicts).Sylvester is arrogant at the start thinking he can just choose any bride and she’ll be pleased, but he’..."
Ha, I think addict is the correct term! :D
Raccoe, we have had a group read of Sylvester quite recently if you want to comment there - no obligation to though! :)
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Raccoe wrote: "Hi, yes I’m new here. Thanks for the welcome, it’s good to find fellow Heyer fans (addicts).Sylvester is arrogant at the start thinking he can just choose any bride and she’ll be p..."
Carol--what's going on with the middle of your reply? Looks like an excerpt from a very non-Heyer book!
Thanks - very non Heyer! Really good book though! :)
I do love 'Uncle Gary' from Sprig Muslin (those scenes still make me laugh out loud after God knows how many dozens of re-readings); and dear sweet Freddy, and poor sweet Gilly (I love the way he finally finds his ***** at the end when he gets angry). Although Civil Contract is possibly my favourite GH I find it quite hard to warm to Adam - he is, I feel, rather unkind to Jenny even though he does come to love her - I don't feel he is sensitive to her (or even to the tiresome and annoying Julia) - his feelings are altogether too much about him all the time.
Richard Wyndham is fab too!
Although I must admit I am not sure I would really fancy dating/marrying any of them... maybe Gilly the best bet, as genuinely kind and intelligent, plus finds he is another one who does eventually have the necessary cojones.
This is a great thread - makes you think, because it is actually quite hard to separate the leading man from the story; it has made me realise that just because I love the story, I might not like the man so much. We should have a thread for 'Most Disliked Heroine' too.
Mine is Tristram Shield, from The Talisman Ring. I like his competence and his good taste in falling in love with Sarah Thane (who is maybe my favourite Heyer heroine), and the way his sense of humour comes out occasionally. I like how he copes with all of Ludovic and Eugenie's dramatics. He's pragmatic and can be relied on in a fight or any tight situation.
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Raccoe wrote: "Hi, yes I’m new here. Thanks for the welcome, it’s good to find fellow Heyer fans (addicts).Sylvester is arrogant at the start thinking he can just c..."
So glad you asked - I was utterly confused!
Greygirl wrote: This is a great thread - makes you think, because it is actually quite hard to separate the leading man from the story; it has made me realise that just because I love the story, I might not like the man so much. We should have a thread for 'Most Disliked Heroine' too.
I agree, it does makes you think!
After I listened to A Civil Contract last week, I was so taken with it that I am re-reading it now in print. :)While Adam is not "hero"-material, I personally was rather impressed by how kind and considerate he was to Jenny (and also to his father-in-law), despite their being in a very difficult situation. Yes, he was sometimes vexed and felt overwhelmed by the situation and Mr Chawleigh's meddling, but it's only human and understandable. I was as fascinated by his developing relationship with Mr Chawleigh as with his and Jenny's :)
I cannot like Adam or think of him as a hero. A Civil Contract is an amazingly well written book but I must confess it’s one I admire rather than like. Adam’s attitude to Jenny is one of the reasons why.I can understand him, even sympathise with him but he is not really a hero in my eyes.
No, he is no hero at all, but an ordinary human being with ordinary human traits like all of us. :)And somehow this is what makes it all fascinating in my eyes. We don't even have to like Adam as a protagonist and yet the book still works.
I do like Adam as a character, but he is not my ideal hero. He is steady and in the end seems kind and patient.
I like Adam but can't help but feel sorry for Jenny, even though he is doing his best to treat her with care and respect. On the whole, it really is a happy ending in that they end up with solid marriage and family life.I couldn't appreciate this book until I was into my 40s because it isn't a "romance" and Adam isn't a "hero" to me in the sense that I wish he were MY man.
And who doesn't like muffins?!
I admire the maturity of Heyer’s writing and the pragmatism she so beautifully delineates. However I end up feeling sorry for Jenny because she’s been viewed as not only second best but as repugnant at times. Adam learns to appreciate, respect and value Jenny but I want her to have more than that. Never mind, she has a contentment she never expected and seems happy to be the one who does the lion’s share of the loving.
A Civil Contract is, I think, the only one of Heyer's historical fiction where the main couple actually have a child during the events of the novel (others have kids, but we only find out in sequels). Admittedly, most of the others don't take place over as much time. I like Adam, mainly because we see most of the events of the novel from his point of view - the male pov isn't a usual one for Heyer's regencies - and we understand his feelings and motivations, and maybe forgive him a little more readily than if we saw things only from Jenny's perspective.
Well put Emma. We tend to feel the heroine has been done wrong without the man's perspective. Adam did what he had to do. I like to think that in time he will appreciate his marriage and enjoy the life he has.
Teresa wrote: "Well put Emma. We tend to feel the heroine has been done wrong without the man's perspective. Adam did what he had to do. I like to think that in time he will appreciate his marriage and enjoy the ..."I have every sympathy for Adam. He wasn’t alone in following family duty and responsibility rather than personal preference. That applied to men and women in equal parts in this era I think.
What I dislike is how Heyer makes Jenny so unattractive, so repugnant to Adam initially. I cringe when I read those sections and feel so much pity for her because of course we know she loves him.
As I said earlier, I think he does come to appreciate, respect and value her. That wouldn’t be enough for me I’m afraid.
I find it an immensely sad story. Brilliant, but essentially a somewhat bleak perspective.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "What I dislike is how Heyer makes Jenny so unattractive, so repugnant to Adam initially. I cringe when I read those sections and feel so much pity for her because of course we know she loves him."I think that's partly the point, firstly, that he would have found anyone who wasn't Julia unattractive, and secondly that he doesn't know that Jenny is in love with him, even if we do. He thinks it's solely his position she and her father want. Also, interestingly, it goes against Heyer's oeuvre entirely that Jenny's not pretty. Even her older heroines are attractive, and it's really interesting that Adam has to so obviously choose between someone wealthy and plain and someone beautiful but poor. It bucks all the tropes which Heyer herself established.
Emma wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "What I dislike is how Heyer makes Jenny so unattractive, so repugnant to Adam initially. I cringe when I read those sections and feel so much pity for her because of cou..."Yes, I understand that completely - but it doesn’t mean I have to like it.
I agree Susan, I hate the way the book bangs on about her 'short neck' as if it's an unforgiveable fault.
I never especially liked Civil Contract until a friend told me it was her favourite - which made me look at it with different eyes. It is a superbly written story precisely for those reasons cited by everyone above - Adam is not a typical 'hero', Jenny certainly not a usual 'heroine' and their story far removed from 'relationship' novels, historical or otherwise. Bringing in the real historical events also lifts it to being a real story about real people.But for Adam to spend virtually the entire book utterly oblivious to the fact that Jenny adores him is infuriating! Even at the end I don't think he has grasped just how much she cares for him. He is altogether too concerned with himself, and that's okay really, because that is true to the sort of man he was and would have been in that era. He has many good qualities though, but I think if Jenny had married him just for the status/money they would very rapidly have come to live totally separate lives (probably with Adam and Julia being lovers) because she would not have accepted/forgiven how mean he could be to her.
And while we're on the subject - Rockhill! He's an interesting character too!
What I found most intriguing is that in the second half of the novel, when Julia visits Adam and Jenny in Fontley, she actually (view spoiler) It is a very powerful scene (as the whole visit is a turning point in their (J-A) relationship), despite the delicate hints, because it shows Adam how differently he and Julia actually think of things and he also starts realising how inconsiderate and selfish Julia actually is.Agree also that Rockhill is a very interesting character and behind that rake facade there is an enormous experience, if not worldly wisdom, put to good use in the way he handles Julia and the whole situation.
Although I guess he and Julia would eventually end up keeping other lovers as well.
One thing I like about Adam is his concern for her once she is pregnant. He doesn't like that fashionable doctor's plan for her to lose weight and recognizes it's not healthy. Ultimately, I see him caring for her as best he is able given the situation and the times. I also like that he does his level best to be respectful to her father, while still standing up to him.
I found the development of Adam's and Mr Chawleigh's relationship highly interesting. :)Even though he is also repulsed by Mr Chawleigh's vulgarity, on the other hand he always treats him with respect and consideration, which is no mean feat.
I found Mr Chawleigh delightful in print, but his kind of character would totally drive me up the wall in real life. :)
I think A Civil Contract is a brilliant portrayal of someone falling out of love and I never doubt that Adam falls out of love with Julia. Perhaps it felt too much to have Adam fall *in* love in the same book. But I am in the camp that finds his attitude towards and feelings about Jenny to be problematic. I feel there's a classist aspect to his feelings about her that is unlikely to go away. And I'm not convinced that all men in Adam's position at the time would have had the same prejudices, although I'm sure many did.As to which of Heyer's heroes is my favorite, that's Freddy from Cotillion. He doesn't take himself too seriously but will always have your back.
I give Heyer credit for creating very few male leads that I don't like. I think she had a gift for that. But generally I prefer the quieter ones.
I think another interesting aspect about A Civil Contract is that all the characters are flawed in some way, but we can view their actions and feelings sympathetically. No one is all good or all bad and their complexities give the book more depth and nuance. I have sympathy for Julia and Adam as they were in love but circumstances prevented them from being together. I can understand why Julia is annoyed that her friend seemingly stole the man she wanted to marry and it’s a very hard situation for Adam to find himself in. He isn’t attracted to Jenny at all - his feelings are all taken up with Julia and having their separation enforced in such a way just makes the feelings stronger and stops him from seeing things with a clear head. Who hasn’t made stupid decisions in the midst of a passion or crush for someone? The heart can’t stop yearning just because circumstances tell it to and Adam can’t just stop wanting Julia because he’s compelled to marry to save his family and estate, but he does turn down an affair with Julia and he and Jenny are obviously having a proper physical relationship - much to Julia’s shock.
When he does finally come to realise Jenny’s worth and see that she is a much more suitable partner for him, it may not be with the deep passion she feels for him, but it is a much more sensible, measured and long lasting love than his infatuation with the beautiful, but spoilt and shallow Julia. I believe he and Jenny will ultimately come to be real partners and make a happy marriage and his love will grow for her as hers will inevitably dim slightly for him (familiarity breeds contempt and all that) resulting in a good balance.
I have been enjoying this interesting discussion about A Civil Contract. I haven't actually read the book for a while, but I feel like I should go back and reread with some of the comments in mind :)I too feel (from memory!) that Julia was spoilt and shallow, and in the end Adam will be happier with Jenny than he ever would have been with Julia.
These kinds of highly practical contracted marriages were no doubt quite commonplace, no matter how our romantic wishes these days might like it otherwise.
Raccoe wrote: "I think another interesting aspect about A Civil Contract is that all the characters are flawed in some way, but we can view their actions and feelings sympathetically. No one is all good or all ba..."Very valid points, I agree. :)
Jan wrote: "II have been enjoying this interesting discussion about A Civil Contract. I haven't actually read the book for a while, but I feel like I should go back and reread with some of the comments in mind :)I too feel (from memory!) that Julia was spoilt and shallow, and in the end Adam will be happier with Jenny than he ever would have been with Julia.
These kinds of highly practical contracted marriages were no doubt quite commonplace, no matter how our romantic wishes these days might like it otherwise"
Just as with every other relationship in this book, Heyer guided us through the development or rather the deterioration of Julia's and Adam's step by step from the passion they seem to feel for each other to the point where they (or at least where Adam) realise that had they married, they would not have made each other happy or not for long, as apart from love, they wanted completely different things from life.
Julia is shocked when she finds that Adam enjoys farming and being an agriculturist or he finds her hero-worshipping one of Adam's ancestors silly. Adam is also shocked to find that Julia is willing (view spoiler) and how she is craving attention and resents not always being the centre of attention or how inattentive she is to the feelings of others while expects everyone to pay attention to hers. I think Julia also shows a mirror to him: her disregard for Jenny's feelings and pain shows Adam that he behaved to Jenny in the same way, even though not willingly.
Coming back to Heyer's heroes, so far I have only read the following books:- Venetia
- The Grand Sophy
- Frederica
- False Colours
- The Unknown Ajax
- A Civil Contract
I am currently reading The Nonesuch and enjoying the hell out of it and I have to say that I like Sir Waldo the best by far followed by Hugo at some distance as second.
From this lot, I dislike Damerel the most. For me he's pushing every button that makes me detest a so-called "hero". Byronic is so not my thing. :)
Melindam wrote: "Coming back to Heyer's heroes, so far I have only read the following books:- Venetia
- The Grand Sophy
- Frederica
- False Colours
- [book:Th..."
Oh no! Is this heresy? I am shocked that you don’t like Jasper? Entirely your prerogative of course and it would be so boring if we all thought the same!
Venetia is my favourite Heyer and Damerel is my favourite hero. Though I have to say - I have about 5 top heroes and whichever book I am reading, they become the top one for the duration!
I don’t see him as particularly Byronic - I do see him as an intelligent, well read hero with so many positive attributes. I love him.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Oh no! Is this heresy? I am shocked that you don’t like Jasper? Entirely your prerogative of course and it would be so boring if we all thought the same!Venetia is my favourite Heyer and Damerel is my favourite hero. Though I have to say - I have about 5 top heroes and whichever book I am reading, they become the top one for the duration!
I don’t see him as particularly Byronic - I do see him as an intelligent, well read hero with so many positive attributes. I love him."
Was Jasper Damerel's Christian name?? Oh dear, cannot even recall that.
I need to reread Venetia, obviously. :D
I read it in 2019 and it did not make a lasting impression on me. But now that something clicked in my brain and I realise how unappreciative I was of Heyer, I am giving all these novels another chance.
Sophie and A Civil Contract I already love. :)
Melindam wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Oh no! Is this heresy? I am shocked that you don’t like Jasper? Entirely your prerogative of course and it would be so boring if we all thought the same!Venetia is my ..."
Oddly, I’ve just finished a re-read of The Grand Sophy - I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve re-read it! Charles isn’t a favourite hero as I find it hard to forgive his stupidity in thinking he’d be happy with Eugenia!
I don't think of Charles as hero material, certainly, but after rereading the novel for the 3rd time, I understand him better. And Sophy's schemeing is so delicious. I love it. :)
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Charles isn’t a favourite hero as I find it hard to forgive his stupidity in thinking he’d be happy with Eugenia!"He never thinks he would be happy - he thinks he would do his duty. He has banished all thought of his own happiness for the sake of rescuing his family, and doing what is right by his siblings. I like about him that he is, as Sophy thinks when she first meets him, "not beyond redemption", and still honest enough to himself to acknowledge his own "real" nature. In his potential for development, I consider him "hero material", maybe more so than the born & bred paragons.
Susan in Perthshire wrote:Charles isn’t a favourite hero as I find it hard to forgive his stupidity in thinking he’d be happy with Eugenia!
I struggle with that, too, and especially in his being willing to inflict Eugenia on his family by living in the same house.
but we need conflict for the plot and Eugenia is one of the funniest "villains" ever, IMO, so it's all for the best.
if I HAD to pick one favorite Heyer it would be The Grand Sophy.
Sabagrey you make a good point, and we know Charles is reacting to how irresponsbile his Father has been with money and it makes sense he might swing too far the other way. Thank goodness Sophy comes along to save them all!
Jackie wrote: "Sabagrey you make a good point, and we know Charles is reacting to how irresponsbile his Father has been with money and it makes sense he might swing too far the other way. Thank goodness Sophy com..."Yes, and Eugenia was also successfully manipulating him, appealing to his worse nature and playing him off against his family. She did it quite well in her sweet and vicious way. She deserved everything she got from Sophy. :)
Eugenia is a character I like to hate, or at least to detest. :)
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I don’t see him as particularly Byronic - I do see him as an intelligent, well read hero with so many positive attributes. I love him.Not to mention his sense of humor, how well he understands young men and how tortured he is by his past mistake. I love him too! And Miles from Black Sheep and Sir Waldo. I like the rakish heroes who exchange witty dialogue, share a sense of humor and laugh with the heroines over life's absurdities. Miles goes above and beyond with his sense of humor though and that might annoy me all the time as much as it annoyed Abigail at first.
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Frederica (other topics)Venetia (other topics)
False Colours (other topics)
The Grand Sophy (other topics)
False Colours (other topics)
More...
His Granddad tried, but Hugo tells Anthea that his speech was 'very broad' until he went to Harrow, and that he 'never really lost it'.
It's a mistake to think of a regional dialect as being spoken only by people who don't know any better, like baby talk or a lisp or a foreign accent, and that people who do 'know better' are therefore faking when they speak it. Although Hugo is here mostly using it to fool his family, who are making that mistake, it's literally his mother tongue, and his upper-class English is a second language, learned to appease his Granddad and to fit in at school. I bet when he goes back to Huddersfield to discuss business with Uncle Jonas they'll both speak in Yorkshire.
I think Richmond and Oliver's use of Sussex dialect can more justifiably be called 'faux', though, since it's neither their first language nor one that they've ever used as a genuine means of communication with others who speak it; as far as we know, they've only ever used it as a joke.