Jewish Book Club discussion
2020 Poll Winners
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2020/12 Discussion of Kitty Zeldis' Not Our Kind--POLL WINNER
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Im going to jump in shortly.
Was a very busy day- finally!!! :)"
Also, I am not get..."
ClaraBelle- Are you still having problems with emails?
Curious- Now I'm having an small intermittent issue with notifications. I think its my computer, not Gr's.
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Hi, Amy, and thanks for responding; you made me think and maybe get to some new ideas.
First of all I was just going to stick to my guns and continue to point to the impact of negativity.
But then I had the idea to first look at some of my reviews of books I didn't like. And that helped.
I don't do too many one-star reviews. There's probably a way to search for one's books with a certain number of stars (if anyone knows, tell me), but I can think of only two one-star books, and they were books I thought were despicable due to disseminating misinformation for success or fame.
I learned more from looking at my 2-star reviews. What I discovered was that many of them were book-club selections, in other words, books I was reading that ordinarily I wouldn't have, or would have abandoned. So there is an element there of 'somebody made me waste my time' (although actually I've abandoned some book club suggestions too -- in general, not only this book club).
I didn't start those reviews off saying "I didn't like this book" or the like. But maybe I did -- maybe that's what the two stars is saying.
"I didn't like this book" still strikes me as sort of the easy way out (or "I didn't think much of it" etc etc).
So what I recommend is including some things that made us think or did appreciate, if there are any. Also, given this book club, answer the question "What I think this group was looking for when they nominated (or voted for) this book," "Why it's a best (or big) seller," of "Why is it fun even though light?" etc. and at least, as some of you have, what's wrong with it -- allowing for the fact that once you've committed yourself in writing to not liking it, there will be a psychological tendency to justify yourself.
Bottom line: since it's a book club you may find yourself reading a book that wouldn't have been your own first choice. You'll probably find some doozies on the negative side, and maybe now and then on the positive side.
Happy Chanukah! Happy reading! Happy discussions! 🕎 😘 📚
I thought I wrote an earlier comment about not reading all comments until I finished the book. I finished it and would rate it about three stars but I think it is worthy of discussion. The chapters are short and it is easy reading. There are many good points in the book in and in your comments. Having to hide a Jewish name, coming from a middle/low income Jewish family as opposed to those with much income, learning to deal with a physical disability, the beauty of NYC and those hats, etc. I enjoyed. I also liked advocating a woman's right to stay single and/or childless. I thought the men were ciphers. Again, spoiler involved... the author's ending should have been more definitive. Excuse typos.
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...And I've started it. 30+ pages in.
I can see lots to discuss, lots of issues, too. Already have an impression.
Of course I'm reading it under a different constellation of pressures than what I said before re a book club read in general, since now I'm reading to see what all the hullabaloo is about. 😊
So far I'd say a "ladies' book" but possibly on the upper end of that kind of book. There are worse book club reads! There are going to be issues re characterization and also the kinds of explanations emanating from Eleanor. But -- and this may add to the book's worth -- the author apparently has a calling to talk about certain issues. Even if she doesn't do so at the level of great literature, the fact that she's dealing w/stuff that's usually swept under the rug is a plus.
Well, all that's in the realm of prediction, since I'm at such an early point. I'll find out if I'm out in left field!
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Judith, you also make some great observations in your comments.
I will make my questions short, as many have commented on this. Do you feel this book was about religion vs. class , Would Eleanor be more likely accepted if her monetary circumstances were different?
I actually liked the book and finished this morning. I think whatever your feelings were on the story. It conjures up your own experiences with Anti-Semitism and inter-marriage or inter- religious relationships. For myself the experience has been usually been opposite the Jewish family excepting a Gentile spouse into their family. I found this perspective interesting from a Jewish woman delving into a Blueblood society. I thought the author did a great job of capturing the period and fitting in as a woman. Basically what could and couldn't be done and the acceptance of "Boys will be Boys". The character of Wynn was very interesting for me it kind of reverted back to the Nazi era. Anytime anything went wrong in his life or relationships it was always Eleanor as the the root cause and her Jewishness was the problem. Never fleshing out his own infidelities or his drinking as the problem. It was all the Jews fault.I guess my one of my criticism's about the book may have been the character of Eleanor and she just appeared super-human. I wasn't sure you really saw her anger into not being accepted or any flaws in her characters. She was always the most composed, most proper person in the story. the envy of all. I would have like to see more anger in some of the events that happened to her. I think it would have made her character more real.
Interesting that both books picked for December take place at the same time around 1947.
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Hi Jonathan.... Glad you wrote.
Your review is just terrific; thank you for posting it.
As you and I have said previously, everyone has a story. Whether or not they want to share, is up to them.
I honestly cant remember if the following statement was said by Wes to Eleanor in the book, or it was in my mind. Didn't he say
something very close to " you know I can't marry you because you are jewish. Something like that?
Interesting you used the word "Blue-Bloods" relating to class. I I asked a general question about that in a response above your new post.
I also used the same word to define Patricia and family while describing their reactions and their actions,
for a different discussion.
During that discussion, I was reprimanded by a woman who said I am acting like a racist when using that term. Letting her speak, I asked why she didn't use "word" in lieu of "term "-which opened a can of worms. I looked asap and saw the first definition of Blue-Blood was an "aristocrat". It went from there to noble, to power and wealth and religion. No jews there...
I was waiting to see "The Mayflower" next :)
And, the next entry was a racist "term". This is already 10 steps removed from the point, but... is very convoluted in distinguishing these definitions from one to the other. At the end of the day I think antisemitism is a given within that ilk of people due to religion, country and culture.
Im going to stop here to let others jump in.
i did not proof this
Thanks Stacey for your comments. I hope you had a Happy Chanukah. I think you are referring to Tom. He wouldn’t have intimate relationships with Eleanor, because of who she was and felt she should save herself for her husband. At the time I think he felt there could never be a future for her in his world. As time went on his feelings grew and felt she was worth the risk. He also had on his resume’ the fact that he got a girl pregnant and abandoned the situation.
I never really researched the word Blue Blood until after reading your message. I didn’t think it was derogatory and doesn’t appear to be. It is a good lesson though to understand the meaning of the words you use, especially when they are phrased in a different way.
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Re the upper crust society that Eleanor falls in with, I wish it weren't generic. Like, what kind of Protestants? Of course that could change later in the book but for now the generic aspect says "they all look alike" from Eleanor's point of view. While that may be true, the author might of done better. (Maybe Episcopalians, as in Edith Wharton's The Age of Innocence?)
That's not really to your point, Stacey; just what I was already thinking about.
Jonathan, yes, the books turned out to be about almost the same point in time. Singer portrays the environs so well; may be easier when you're actually closer to the time period in question. I could do without all Zeldis' descriptions of clothing & styles. She does sometimes capture the mood of the times generally speaking, though. As when Patricia is advised to seduce her husband. I seem to remember that advice to greet one's husband at the door wrapped in cellophane and nothing else. 🤪 I'm probably thinking 15 or 20 years later, though!
That cellophane reference was definitely in the movie Fried Green Tomatoes. So I am thinking it was taken from the book. Keeping your husband happy was such a strong theme in the book. As a woman at the time you were judged on how strong your marriage was and on how much your children achieved.
That is why the Polio played such a strong theme in the story. I believe Susan and Clarabell, cited it earlier. When this type of situation happens it just doesn’t affect the person but the whole family. Not that Wynn was ever going to be a good person, but Margaux’s Polio could have only had an adverse effect on his life.
No matter what someones opinion is on Not Our Kind, yay or nay. It really has generated some great dialogue.
Meant to say it really has generated some great dialogue.
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I think you are referring to Tom. He wouldn’t have intimate relationships with Eleanor, because of who she was and felt she shoul..."
Same to you.
You are right- mixed up the names as I was typing.
I never thought it to be derogatory word, and I still don't. These days, it takes less than a spark to rock an opinion, but read the definition( s) to them on zoom and moved on.
To your point about conjuring up experiences etc, it does.
There was an older comment made referencing a question of
religion or class. I responded with the question
If Eleanor were affluent, would she be accepted into their world?
My answer would be a "no".
Kudos go to Eleanor's mother and Margaux.
Each live with their own personal pain, it's memories, knowing how destructive that can be.
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👍
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It has some significant flaws that have showed up in this discussion. Some of the characters have contradictory aspects. Some of the outcomes are not so plausible or at least overly convenient. I thought the main character's lifestyle choices and goals were improbable for 1947. The sex was not sexy. The villain was overly villainous and then improbably had redeeming characteristics as well. And Eleanor was given the ability to provide answers that resolved complex social situations in one fell swoop, for example, telling a playboy man-about-town that he should take up a responsible livelihood--and he reforms, just like that.
Undoubtedly more that aren't popping up for me at the moment.
Yet the novel was more than the sum of its flaws.
Could be because the author felt a calling to write about the issue she chose.
It was not antisemitism, although there is antisemitism in the story.
It was what might have been called, in an earlier time, "the Jewish problem." That would imply that the Jew was the problem, which is not a solution that would fly today.
Also, there are a lot more minorities around than there were.
It's the problem of pluralism.
When one group is dominant, so are its values. Where does that leave minority groups? In this case, the Jews?
How much can you assimilate before losing yourself?
Is assimilation a good thing?
The book also was about social class. And sexism.
And, the problem for which this book was nominated and selected: the problem of interfaith marriages or relationships.
What if there truly is love and affection, but because of the Zeitgeist, in which everyone has been steeped whether they like it or not, one group is looked down on, not only by the majority but also by members of the minority, because you can't help but to take it in?
For that reason, interfaith relationships are not without a real and present danger, although that's not going to be so apparent to young lovers. And although Eleanor seemed both impervious and impossibly wise.
I enjoyed the book and even thought it became more compelling as it proceeded. I think it truly is a Jewish book.
I'm concerned the judgment will discourage readership, in other words, kind of a spoiler in itself.
Not that p..."
I think anyone who wants to read a story and not care about - how to say? - in depth characterization would enjoy this book. If someone just wants a quick read this fills the bill! I read J.D. Robb's futuristic cop books and I don't expect great literature but I enjoy the reads - escapism! But that is me - this story isn't necessarily escapism and is a good read for many people.
There are people who think this is a very good book (check the reviews) and I respect their opinion. So go for it!