The Last Samurai - Spoilers OK full book

[Jason]

Let's talk about this book.

[Bretnie]

Where to begin?!

I really liked the transition from Sibylla's voice to Ludo's voice over the course of the book. I think things got more interesting when Ludo started meeting all of his pseudo-fathers, but sometimes I lost patience with the not-fathers' stories.

[Sam]

Ha! I was the exact opposite. I loved the Sybilla sections early on, the back and forth with Ludo, the back story of Liberace, and the play between Sybilla and Ludo as Ludo tries to ascertain his father's identity. After the father is found, which of itself seemed anticlimactic, the novel seemed to lose all the energy that propelled it and the words just seemed to be filling space. The last interview with the pianist was well done but like you I found most of the notfathers' stories to be irrelevant, tedious, and I lost patience as well.

[LindaJ^]

The more I think about this book the more I realize how layered and complex it is. The beginning is quite experimental with thoughts and sentences broken by another activity that is going on, but then the book settles down. As Ludo grows, he starts to see life from other perspectives than his own, especially his mother's. His father quest - the search for a worthy father - is driven in part by his desire to obtain money so his mother no longer has to work at a job that is, for her, demeaning, boring, and depressing. Now that's a sentiment heard expressed by some 5-star football recruits who leave college as soon as possible to make millions so they can provide parents relief from demeaning, boring, and depressing lives and their children a live that hopefully doesn't ever have to me demeaning, boring, and depressing.

Ludo is nothing if not persistent. He is as fanatical about the father quest as he was about his early learning.

And the failure of the educational system - so much that could be said there.

Just a few rambling thoughts. Look forward to hearing others.

[Bretnie]

Sam wrote: "Ha! I was the exact opposite. I loved the Sybilla sections early on, the back and forth with Ludo, the back story of Liberace, and the play between Sybilla and Ludo as Ludo tries to ascertain his f..."

That's funny Sam. :) I did really like Ludo learning the languages and Sibylla's struggle to keep him occupied and challenged. It was just some work to get through the sections that DeWitt kept chopping up. What do you think she was trying to accomplish in breaking up the text like that? Just a sense of the chaos of raising a small, highly inquisitive child?

[Bretnie]

LindaJ^ wrote: "The more I think about this book the more I realize how layered and complex it is. The beginning is quite experimental with thoughts and sentences broken by another activity that is going on, but t..."

Linda those are some great points. I like your phrasing of his search for a "worthy father." It seems like he's trying so hard to make meaning of his own life through all these possible fathers. Direction, guidance, some meaning of his own genius.

Do you guys think he found some direction in the end? I like the last section with the pianist - it felt satisfying to Ludo, but I still wonder how his life will unfold. And how Sib's will change.

[LindaJ^]

Bretnie, I think Ludo's quest had at least two purposes. The first, as I noted above, was to find a source of money so Sibylla could have a more fulfilling life. The second was to find a father who lived up to Ludo's standards of morality and saw life as he and, especially, his mother did. The pianist did that.

How his life will unfold is a great topic for contemplation. It could go in a multitude of directions.

[Sam]

In response to the Ludo's direction question, I agree with Linda that Lido satisfied the quest. I don't see the pianist as an actual role model. I think the idea is that each must find one's own way, follow their own path, discover and embrace their own originality, and then stick to their guns, ( which, paradoxically, is exactly what the pianist has done.)

In response to DeWitt's breaking up the text-- yes in one sense I think she is trying to demonstrate the chaos of raising the potential polymath, also I think she is emulating intimate communication between individuals where we have to figure out information that the intimates share but do not reveal in conversation.

But overall, I think the chopping is just one of the many experiments that DeWitt throws at us in establishing this metafictional novel. My feeling is that DeWitt was challenging the status quo of metafiction and perhaps that the male domain of authors and critics that dominated and praised the genre. Now, this is a guess with no real support, which is why I had asked in the no spoilers topic if anyone was familiar with another female author who pushes the erudite envelope as far as DeWitt does. DeWitt seems to be saying, "look, I can do this too," but she also seems to undercut it's value and importance, pushing it into the absurd. I don't think it is coincidental that Sybilla has this exceptional education and a low paying job that doesn't even afford her enough for heat. DeWitt seems to demonstate her skill in the genre, while poking fun at it and questioning its relevance as in suggesting one can learn Greek by rewriting English words in using the Greek alphabet. Rather than give more reasons for my feeling about this, I'll let others think about it. Like I said, I did not study the novel enough to establish evidence. I could be way off base.

[Bretnie]

Sam wrote: "DeWitt seems to demonstate her skill in the genre, while poking fun at it and questioning its relevance"

I like this take on DeWitt's writing. I always struggle with the balance of "did the author successfully do what they intended" vs "did what the author did ultimately work for me."

I think it does help to zoom out and look at what she might have been trying to do to help explain why I sometimes struggled with it.

[LindaJ^]

Sam wrote: " My feeling is that DeWitt was challenging the status quo of metafiction and perhaps that the male domain of authors and critics that dominated and praised the genre. Now, this is a guess with no real support, which is why I had asked in the no spoilers topic if anyone was familiar with another female author who pushes the erudite envelope as far as DeWitt does."

I admit to not really understanding what is meant by the term "metafiction." I understand the definition, But when I look at lists of books considered to fall in that class, I only see that definition reflected in some of them. While I saw some women authors on various lists, e.g., Margaret Atwood and A.S.Byatt, I did not see Helen DeWitt on any. So I cannot respond to your metafiction comment.

I am not sure what you meant by pushing the "erudite envelope". I can think of many other women writers who are not writing the "traditional" novel and as to the erudite envelope, there is Ali Smith for sure.

[Bretnie]

What did you guys think of the Seven Samurai movie throughout the novel? I'm sure there's a metaphor there for Ludo's life, as the Last Samurai, but I'm struggling and need someone to explain it to me! :)

[Sam]

LindaJ^ wrote: "Sam wrote: " My feeling is that DeWitt was challenging the status quo of metafiction and perhaps that the male domain of authors and critics that dominated and praised the genre. Now, this is a gue..."

Sorry Linda, I was looking for a shorthand way of describing DeWitt's novel compared to novels of similar construction, and the term "metafiction," seemed most apt, when used as it was in the eighties and nineties in reference to a number of similar twentieth century works that were popular with the literary critics. It was used like "autofiction," today. Everyone has an idea of what is meant my the label and we see it referenced often when we read reviews, criticism, etc. Unfortunately, the term "metafiction," is dated and like other labels, useless, if it does not lend meaning to the reader. If you saw the lists of authors, you noticed most were male, and aside from what females were mentioned , my question was if anyone knew any other women who were encyclopedic maximaliist authors like their male counterparts Thomas Pynchon or David Foster Wallace. I couldn't think of any. It is exaggerated specialized knowledge that DeWitt uses in allusions that I meant when I used the term pushing the erudite envelope. DeWitt's choice of allusions and even languages is esoteric enough that she could have included her own footnotes and again she seems exterme in this regard compared to other female authors of that time, but I am not well read in the nineties or first decade of the 21st century, so I may be missing predecessors.

[Sam]

Bretnie wrote: "What did you guys think of the Seven Samurai movie throughout the novel? I'm sure there's a metaphor there for Ludo's life, as the Last Samurai, but I'm struggling and need someone to explain it to..."

Bretnie, this is part of where I think the novel failed for me, since I did not think the Seven Samurai allusion was effectively explained in the text. Perhaps a further read would give more comprehension, but I have not the wish to devote more time to the novel. Ludo subjects each of the father figures to some testing and the book refers back to the film where the Samurai warriors are tested for worthiness, so a connection is implied, but I could not figure out exactly what Dewitt was trying to say. If you look at Bushido Code, you will see seven or eight tenets or rules that Samurai warriors were supposed to follow. You might be able to see a connection where each of the fathers failed on a certain tenet. One fails to maintain emotional control and attacks Ludo, for example. I don't know if this will lead you to a better overall understanding because DeWitt, seems to be also poking some fun at this "code." Compare to the chivalric code of knights in Western Literature and we see many authors have already mocked the reality of chivalry. I think DeWitt may be making a similar statement.

[LindaJ^]

Okay. I used Thomas Pynchon and asked Google to find women authors who write like him. One return was this: https://www.reddit.com/r/ThomasPyncho.... Another site identified 50-100 authors who "write like" Pynchon, two of which were women -- DeWitt and Joan Didion (I have only read her non-fiction, so have no opinion on her fiction).

Looking at the term "encyclopedic maximaliist authors", I found a book The Maximalist Novel: From Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow to Roberto Bolano's 2666 that identified 7 such novels, including White Teeth by Zadie Smith. Goodreads has a list of Maximalist Novel books (have to wonder about the title!), that has 18 books that have been shelved as maximalist. (https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/...) Only one appears to be by a woman -- Miss MacIntosh, My Darling by Marguerite Young. It predates The Last Samuri by many years.

While she did not appear on in my searches, I still think Ali Smith could make the cut and would be interested in what others think. Another possibility for me would be Rachel Kushner for her novel The Flame Throwers.

I'd be interested in others thoughts on Sam's question. It has resulted in my educating myself!

[Sam]

LindaJ^ wrote: "Okay. I used Thomas Pynchon and asked Google to find women authors who write like him. One return was this: https://www.reddit.com/r/ThomasPyncho......"

Thanks for the response Linda. When it comes to later writers like Ali and Zadie, I am am reluctant to include them though they fit the criteria. I think it is because the metafictional elements are so common in much of literary fiction. But enough of my babble. Like you said, "let use hear from others."

I did want to leave a link to an article on Marguerite Young. I have never read her novel. If you have certain editions, you've got some pricey treasures. But I like this essay and thought you might also.

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2...

[LindaJ^]

Thanks for that link Sam. I do not have the book but am looking to see if I can find it. And you are right, it is quite pricey. I found lots of copies of Vol 2 but so far, none of Vol 1 of the 2 volume set and the complete books are few. Must say that it sounds as if Marguerite Young may have outdone Helen DeWitt in some ways, although not in fonts.

[Bryan--The Bee’s Knees]

What an excellent essay on Young. Thank you for providing the link.

[Bretnie]

Sam, thanks for the insight on the samurai connection. Even if your observation feels like only half the answer, it was more than I came up with! This idea of testing the samurai = testing the fathers.

I was intrigued by the fact that Sybilla watched the movie SO MUCH, but I don't know what that's supposed to mean either.

Another thing I was confused about that seems so basic. At the beginning you're led to believe his father is Liberace (which I found hilarious and fascinating) but then in the letter she says it's the writer. I looked up Liberace and apparently he was a child genius, so I was left wondering if, in fact, Liberace was his father and Sybilla lied about that. Which would be interesting for Ludo since he talked to so many potential "fathers" and would have never talked to his actual father if that was the case.

[Gregory]

I can appreciate DeWitt's ambition and enjoyed the wit and erudition in long stretches. But I still ended the book rather disappointed. Sibylla has self-isolated herself from any family or friends, locked in single-minded devotion to higher learning for herself and son Ludo: “To live the life of the mind is the truest form of happiness.” Maybe, but the impressive growth in her knowledge is not accompanied by much change, and even less growth in her life.
For my full review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[LindaJ^]

Gregory,
I think you are right that Sibylla's "impressive growth in her knowledge is not accompanied by much change, and even less growth in her life." But if it had, it would have been a different book. Sibylla, once her suicide attempt failed, made a choice to devote her life to her son. Unlike his mother, he is growing, maturing, and changing. We don't know what the future holds for them, but I can imagine a number of scenarios, some good, some sad, some bad. Personally, I think Sibylla's and Ludo's lives are going to change for the better and in a decade, Sibylla will be mingling with the greatest minds of world and Ludo will be obtaining his 5th PhD and has been accepted to the astronaut training program and will likely be on the first manned mission to Mars.

[Gregory]

LindaJ,
I hope you're right -- I would buy that sequel! I guess in childrearing I've followed more the 'it takes a village' model.' It's a novel, not a parenting guide, so I don't want to criticize too much in that vein. But it was a bit painful to watch Sibylla isolate herself and Ludo from any friends or family, With a low-wage gig job in an expensive city, she drags him around on the Underground all day, and keeps him out of the one school she tries out. It was telling when he recounts his brief stay at school that he gives no mention of other children, and the teachers complain of his semi-bullying behavior. Even if the school was below her standards, she could have tried others -- and made an effort to meet other parents so at least he could have playdates. Plus that would have opened up the novel to other characters and plot twists.
Anyway, I give DeWitt credit for the book's many strengths, even if I personally felt it ran out of steam and became too repetitive midway through. I would definitely read more by such a talented author.

[Sam]

Bretnie wrote: "Sam, thanks for the insight on the samurai connection. Even if your observation feels like only half the answer, it was more than I came up with! This idea of testing the samurai = testing the fath..."

The recounting of Sybilla and Ludo's father using a Liberace allusion was one of my favorite parts of the novel. I think the thing to remember from the Liberace allusion was that Liberace was a show person, a stylist with little substance. Hence Liberace would flamboyantly perform inane ditties on rhinestone and mirror decorated pianos bearing lit candleabras while wearing a sequined suits, furs or feathers, I kind of thought that DeWiit might be poking a little fun at males in general , but I definitely think she was aiming at certain types of authors. Here a a couple links to Liberace' s shtick on YouTube. They are fun to watch.

https://youtu.be/dioRwB4RvrQ
https://youtu.be/-WC1OsdX2LM
https://youtu.be/rH7zxxAWg5Q