Nov 2020 buddyread: Return of the Soldier by Rebecca West

[Elke]

Feel free to post comments as (just mark or avoid spoilers) or after you read this title chosen as a November Lovely ladies buddyread.
Summary:
Writing her first novel during World War I, West examines the relationship between three women and a soldier suffering from shell-shock. This novel of an enclosed world invaded by public events also embodies in its characters the shifts in England's class structures at the beginning of the twentieth century.

[Brenda]

Thank you Elke!
I'm trying to sort out my reads for November, so I may not get to this until mid-month, but I will be joining in.

[Iza]

Now that I see the title, I think I may have been wanting to join in ? (hectic month, memory of a gold fish). I bought it, so count me in ;)

[Iza]

I just finished the first chapter and it's intriguing. Nostalgy, class issues, death, secrets - good start.

[Elke]

Full disclosure: I set this thread up but will not be reading this title myself.
So if anyone wants to guide the discussion or share any pertinent info about author Rebeca West, please feel free!

[Brenda]

Thanks Elke! It’s a Buddy read so no worries, tend to be more freeform.

[Brenda]

I’ve just started as well. I’ve got an audio version so not quite sure of the chapter, but about 1/3 in.
It’s interesting and as usual, not what I expected. I do like stories that really make you think... what if I were in those shoes???

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

I read this today, loved it. I found that in the beginning I really sympathised with Kitty, what an awful situation to find yourself in, but as it progressed, she became less and less sympathetic. Margaret was the one with warmth, who really tried to help Chris. I think Jenny, as narrator, comes to see Kitty's coldness and aloofness as not helpful to Chris.

[Brenda]

I've just finished it. What a very emotional book. I still say at the end.... what if I were in those shoes? It's so hard to fathom.

(view spoiler)[ I did love the double entendre of the title... and was rather glad that it worked out that way. I thought that was clever.

I agree Kitty seemed quite cold to it all, but we don't know much about her before. She also lost a child, which is nothing anyone wants to go through, and I'm sure her husbands return in this state was a blow. Although she was acting rather selfish, but maybe that's her character to begin with? Did it say how Kitty and Chris got together? Unless I missed it, I don't think so.
Kitty and Margaret are just absolute opposites.

I feel like there was a lot unsaid to let the reader infer. Very thought provoking. I just keep thinking...ugh....wouldn't want to be in any of their shoes! (hide spoiler)]

[Iza]

I finished it too and it will probably be one of the best reads of 2020 for me - I haven't recovered yet.
My review is here :
href="https://www.goodreads.com">ht...

I agree fully with what you said, Brenda, about Kitty : the author never says what she thinks, but she reveals here and there, with slight touches, how terribly upset she is...

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

I thought the opening scene was pretty telling on Kitty's character, where she is drying her hair in the nursery simply because it was the most convenient room with the sun shining in. Jenny seemed far more affected by the association to the childs memory.

I felt the ending was dreadfully sad, (view spoiler)[with Chris's returning memory, he will either die at the front or return to a loveless marriage. (hide spoiler)] I do agree with you that she seemed very upset, but my reading of it was that this was due to a potential loss of status and respectability. I also thought she was very angry that despite her beauty, Chris preferred the dowdy Margaret.

Also, at that time, shell shock was seen as a form of cowardise, so she was ashamed of Chris.

[Brenda]

I'm going to give this another go in the next week for another perspective. (view spoiler)[ part of me wants to paint Kitty in an unattractive light, but I feel like there are holes and it's hard to fill them in with just conjecture. We also don't have a whole picture of Chris now, we only see him as others view him and in his younger self. What changes might have he gone through after Margaret before Kitty? He was young and immature then, he hadn't know Margaret for long... It's easy to look at the past with longing, but usually its the bright spots we see, not the full picture. And looking at a short lived romance as a fairly tale beginning is really hard when you don't actually know what might have happened. They don't call it a "Honeymoon Stage" for nothing.
Also, I'm not sure if I've missed some things or if its part of something that just wasn't given. (hide spoiler)]

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

Good idea. I think it's very nuanced, so we'll all read it slightly differently. One of the reasons I thought the marriage wasn't a particularly happy one was that Chris's memory went back 15 years, to his brief time with Margaret. Is this the last time he was truely happy? He blocked out all of his marriage (and meeting Kitty), not just from the death of their son, or just the war; but everything.

Also, I agree we don't have a complete picture of Chris, we see him through Jenny's eyes, who I believe was a little in love with him, she was more concerned when they hadn't had news of him, with Kitty telling her not to fuss. Her sympathies change through the book, at first I thought she horrified of Margaret and protective to Kitty, but that changed.

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

Incidently, there is a Backlisted podcast on this book which I'll listen to later.

[Brenda]

Thanks for the info on Blacklisted, I'll listen to that after I read it again.

It is a magical book in that even though it is shorter in length, and we are sometimes only given snippets, it is still filled to the brim. I absolutely agree that it is very nuanced.

[Tracey, Yorkshire White Rose.]

What I found interesting is at the time it was written the war was still ongoing. I think West was both writing about the people and the effects of the war from a very personal standpoint, And that makes it all the more powerful. I think she is indicating the mindset that got the war started in the first place and the same rigid mindset that kept it going even though by this point everyone knew of the horror of trench warfare and the damage it was doing.

I think Chris's mind shut down because he simply couldn't take any more loss. I understand that. This year has been hard for all the world and we have lost a lot of things. The effect on mental health cannot at this stage be measured but I estimate it will be similar to war when it is done.

Why did Chris love Margaret even when she had lost the bloom of her youthful beauty? When one has faced horrors and loss then the most precious thing of all is truth and kindness. That's what Margaret was to Chris.

A beautiful and sad book but one I think that was very relevant to us today.

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

What I find particularly interesting is her portrayal of shell shock, especially as it was commonly thought of as a form of cowardice at the time. She seems much more enlightened about its real effects.

[Brenda]

I happened upon the series The Village yesterday and watched the first season while working on my Xmas crafts. I thought it well done, but so interesting related to this read as it’s set at just the beginning of WWI. They show a case of shell shock and the different way it affects people.

It’s also a good prequel to South Riding, as it’s set in Yorkshire. The 2nd season (of 2) starts in early 1920’s.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2394340/

[Jess]

I’m not finished so will check back in on the spoiler posts a bit later. But I’m at the part where Chris has just got home and sees Kitty. I’m struck by the detail in which Jenny describes all the jewelry Kitty has on- every finger of the right hand with rings, her wedding ring on the left and her necklaces. When Kitty reminds Chris he gave her all of these (referring to the necklaces) it just seemed like she’s grasping at everything she can to remind him of her and their life.

[Nidhi]

I am late here... I missed the thread because of some settings... this is my first book by West. Looking forward to read the book..

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

Nidhi and Jess, I look forward to your thoughts. I'm going to 'read' this again and see what I missed the first time around. This time I'm going to listen. It's in the public domain so there is an audio on Libravox and under 3 hrs; here's a link if anyone wants it:- https://archive.org/details/return_of....

[Brenda]

I've just listened to the librivox recording, as I'd returned my other. It's a very good narration. I think I like it better than the one from my library.

I do have a different opinion of Kitty now. I didn't pay enough attention in the beginning to the descriptions of her, and she is not painted in the best light. I do feel for her, its a horrible situation to be in. But she's not the nicest person. She's very classist and looks down on Margaret even before she knows who she is. Although there is a point where Jenny remarks on Margaret and her not being very smart, which I think was also just a class remark. I hadn't expected that from her, although when something is ingrained it's hard to sometimes understand that its wrong. Unfortunately people don't always question what is, and just accept it because its always been that way. We can see that even in present day.

(view spoiler)[ I still can't put a finger on if Chris has regressed to that point because of Margaret, or the loss of his son, or a combination. We don't ever get a sense of him in real life, just when he is leaving. So I think there is still a lot left unsaid, but more said about Kitty than I realized. (hide spoiler)]

I still think it a wonderful book and something I can reread again and again and I think still find new things about it. I do really like how there is so much unsaid, and it really gives the reader a chance to think about what's going on, and explore the different issues.

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

Agreed. I do pity her, I think I had more sympathy for her the first time I read it too, but rereading this time, that first scene in the nursery made me see her in a different light, when she wishes Chris would get rid of the nursery things as it's the best room in the house. In fairness, who knows how we would react in that situation. Kitty is certainly a product of her time and class, I think that is what West is railing against; whether readers at the time would've *heard* that message I don't know, it would be interesting to read contempory reviews.

[Brenda]

I absolutely agree, contemporary reviews would be telling.
It's unfortunate we didn't know Chris more before he left, to put the rest in perspective. It's rather left to the reader to form a lot of their own judgements. Which we would do anyway, but really here you're left with almost no other recourse.

(view spoiler)[I wonder if he'd changed after Margaret? I wonder what the letters said... he sent so many, one assumes he apologizes and begs forgiveness etc. But has he changed since then? He was young. A summer love? After having to rescue the company, getting older, losing his fling, meeting Kitty... had that changed him? His actions now show he was quite a lighthearted playful soul. Or did the loss of his child really affect him so? The business. His father. etc. Also, we don't know how Kitty was affected by the loss of their son. She's portrayed as being a bit cold about it. She could have been made different as well. Maybe that really affected her? Was it misplaced emotions that turned her into a mean snob? At the end we get a glimpse of Kitty holding the dog. The dog she normally doesn't care for, but I think she needs some comfort. It talks about her deep unhappiness, she'd lost her pride. She's in grief. And then Jenny talks about her as being the falsest thing on earth. What does she mean by that? I almost felt like my feeling for Kitty changed at the end. As if she's almost lost and doesn't know what to do. Everyone feels for the those on the wrong side of the tracks...but the priveledged are people too. She doesn't react well to his shell-shock. Is it enough to hold it against her? She's lost her son. Now she feels like she's lost her husband. There is a war going on. Jenny loves Chris and seems quite sensible, wouldn't she have acted differently if there was some discord between Kitty and Chris before? I'm curious Tania, why you think its a loveless marriage? Tracey, I am thinking of why he goes to Margaret... it seems he's remembering a really happy time. But that didn't end well either, there was also loss there. So does that speak to Margaret as a person? Kitty is not mothering, she seems fragile and insecure.
So many questions. Unanswered. (hide spoiler)]

[Nidhi]

I finished this book yesterday and gave it 5 stars. I liked everything about the book.
I like the way West emphasised The difference between three women by comparing there economical status, their reactions to the situation and then their behaviour to each other.

I was surprised by the opening scene and had to read it 3 or 4 times to make sure that it was dead child’s mother who was sitting in the nursery to dry her hair... West made Kitty ‘s character clear here that she not very sensitive lady, in the end she even forgets to tell the doctor about the child, who maybe the cause of Chris’s discontent.

[Jess]

Brenda wrote: "Did it say how Kitty and Chris got together? .."

I wondered the same thing, Brenda. I didn't catch if it was explained. How could he go from a Margaret to a Kitty? Unless, the whole experience when he and Margaret ended things due to their misunderstanding altered him completely in his choice of women.

[Jess]

Tania wrote: "Incidently, there is a Backlisted podcast on this book which I'll listen to later."

Yes! Thank you for letting us know Backlisted has a podcast on this. I bet it is a good one and I'll be sure to listen.

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

Jess, I think ultimately Chris would always have had to go for a 'Kitty'. A man in his position would never have been *allowed* to marry an inn-keepers daughter, however well intentioned he might have been at the time. He may well have fully intended to marry her, but very likely would have been persuaded against it. I don't think we do find out how they met.

[Jess]

Brenda wrote: "I absolutely agree, contemporary reviews would be telling.
It's unfortunate we didn't know Chris more before he left, to put the rest in perspective. It's rather left to the reader to form a lot o..."

Two scenes that stood out to me in showing Kitty's character were:
1. When she first meets Margaret with Jenny. She's cold, dismissive and haughtily rude to Margaret. I agree it is in part to her classist line of thinking, but she really dug her heels in even when Jenny relented and listened to what Margaret had to say.
2. Her hugging that poor forgotten little dog. I hate that she was thoughtless in her treatment of the dog as she is in so many other aspects of her life, but it was pitiable that this one thing was what was left to her for affection and comfort.

[Jess]

Tania wrote: "Jess, I think ultimately Chris would always have had to go for a 'Kitty'. A man in his position would never have been *allowed* to marry an inn-keepers daughter, however well intentioned he might h..."

I think you are exactly right. And I honestly have to wonder if Margaret was a fun novelty for him? I know that sounds cruel to say in light of how much joy she is bringing to him in the novel. But how Chris feels about her in the novel is a bit unreliable due to everything that has happened.

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

Oh, the dog. I agree, my heart went out to it, and it made me despise Kitty's behaviour towards it.

[Jess]

I thought it interesting how in the beginning, Jenny and Kitty are seen as friends. And by the end, we have Jenny referring to Margaret as a friend and Kitty won't even see Margaret for most of the novel. She says something along the lines in describing Margaret as "a woman who's personality was sounding through her squalor like a beautiful voice singing in a darkened room."

Which though a lovely way to describe someone, I have to wonder if Jenny is an unreliable narrator due to her own feelings for Chris? So in her sympathy and relief that he won't be sent back to the Front because of his condition; is she taking a more loving approach to Margaret since she's fostering it?

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

Possibly, but I think he was 21 possibly younger, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was youthful idealism and he was n love, I think that was why he went back in his memory to that time. It must have meant a lot to him.

[Jess]

Nidhi wrote: "Kitty ‘s character clear here that she not very sensitive lady, in the end she even forgets to tell the doctor about the child, who maybe the cause of Chris’s discontent..."

I haven't been able to decide if the death of their son affected Kitty as much as it seems to have Chris. Is burying the emotions and moving on like it never happened, her way of coping? Or was she as thoughtless about her son as she was of the little dog she neglected? In which, it genuinely never occurred to her to bring it up?

[Jess]

Tania wrote: "Possibly, but I think he was 21 possibly younger, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was youthful idealism and he was n love, I think that was why he went back in his memory to that ..."

It had to have been the happiest point in his life. No war, young love, a world of possibilities and he hadn't lost his son yet. I can see why his mind would take refuge in that time period to protect him.

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

Nidhi wrote: "I finished this book yesterday and gave it 5 stars. I liked everything about the book.
I like the way West emphasised The difference between three women by comparing there economical status, their..."

I agree, I loved that Jenny comes to realise that Margaret is the better petson, despite comparing her to an old dirty glove fallen down behind a chest!

[Jess]

Tania wrote: "I agree, I loved that Jenny comes to realise that Margaret is the better petson, despite comparing her to an old dirty glove fallen down behind a chest..."


Ha! I had completely forgotten she said that. Wow, has their friendship evolved quite a bit!

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

I couldn't make my mind up about her feelings towards her son either. I find it hard to believe she wouldn't care, but other things in the novel seem to point to that.

[Jess]

Tania wrote: "I couldn't make my mind up about her feelings towards her son either. I find it hard to believe she wouldn't care, but other things in the novel seem to point to that."

Yes! That's why I'm a bit perplexed with her. I just can't fathom her not caring, I mean, that would be just dark and awful. But there's not a lot of evidence to support that she did.

[Brenda]

Jess wrote: I wondered the same thing, Brenda. I didn't catch if it was explained. How could he go from a Margaret to a Kitty? Unless, the whole experience when he and Margaret ended things due to their misunderstanding altered him completely in his choice of women.

But maybe the snippet we see of Chris is more telling than we know? I think it’s easy to romanticize Chris and throw Kitty in the corner for her obvious bad behavior, but what about Chris? We don’t see much of his relationship with Margaret, but we see him being controlling when he perceives a transgression. Then he just leaves with no word. Does this parallel Kitty and the dog? Plus we only see this relationship from Margaret’s eyes.

Is he going back to the time of Margaret only because he’s waxing nostalgic about a better time, but not necessarily Margaret? When most people look back on something, it’s natural to look for just the parts one sees through rose colored glasses.

Maybe Chris isn’t all that “nice” either. Margaret saw a snippet of him during a summer “fling”, but if you put it to a money where your mouth is, I think Chris failed. He said nice things in the beginning but didn’t follow through. He didn’t trust Margaret and treated her in a classist matter as well.

Maybe Jenny gets an eye opener with Margaret in general, not just in regards to Kitty, but Chris as well, in that - perhaps Kitty and Chris are really birds of a feather and she doesn’t know how to take Margaret who perhaps is more human? She’s not used to a Margaret?

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

All good points Brenda. Chris is an elusive character, we either see him through Jenny's eyes, and she is a bit of an unwordly narrator, in love with him; or on the cusp of adulthood. We don't know how successful (or not), their marriage was.

Although this is a very accomplished debut novel, I wonder if her characterisation of Kitty is maybe a bit two dimentional. A cartoon cold fish. Perhaps that's why she confuses me.

[Brenda]

I listened to the Blacklisted episode and I was disappointed with that one. I didn’t feel that particular discussion was very meaty. I found another podcast, but the girl was obviously young and it’s hard to take considerations from someone on a literary level when their speech is full of twenty something jargon. It did not put a lot of confidence in her literary intelligence level sorry to say. I tried looking on Tea or Books, found a WWI v II episode which they said they’d talked about it in a previous episode but couldn’t find that. I was in the kitchen so wanted something to listen to.

With that, yes it is a debut novel so it’s hard to say. Maybe Kitty is only two dimensional though? If she’s grown up in the society that is just supposed to be pretty so you can get married and nothing more is expected of you, is it unfair to expect more of her? We’re to give Mary Crawford a bit of a pass because she’s been raised with the horrible uncle. Nothing was really expected of women at the time. They basically had no rights weren’t allowed an opinion or the ability to think for themselves. Perhaps they’re lulled into an almost Stepford Wives existence. Obviously Chris didn’t care for Margaret going against him, so maybe in Kitty he’s found his doormat shall we say. The obedient wife.

Every time I start discussing the book again I feel like I want to go back and read it yet again. Lol.

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

Same Brenda, I've relistened to the first chapter, but haven't yet gone past that. I've yet to listen to the Backlisted podcast, dissappointing that it doesn't go in to the nitty gritty of the novel. I do love that it leaves us with so much to discuss though.

[Brenda]

I absolutely agree. I completely love, besides all the intricacies in such a short novel, that it was written by a 24 year old woman during WWI. And it’s her first novel. That to me is just spectacular. They did say on the podcast it’s never been out of print. I do really want to read more from her. From someone of a younger age to show all the subtle nuances of her characters is quite spectacular and I would certainly look forward to later works as she matures as a writer.

[Nidhi]

I also loved her writing and would read more of her books.

[Jess]

It’s interesting mentioning Kitty is written as a two dimensional character. While listening to the podcast, they mentioned her decor is black and white. It got me thinking maybe that is how West wanted us to see her. What we see is what we get with Kitty who views the world in a black and white manner.

Like you mentioned, Brenda, Kitty was raised to be beautiful and get married. She had two jobs and exceeded at it marvelously. I think Kitty shows us the model society woman who understands responsibility, decorum, and the order of things. There isn’t many facets in that line of thinking- either you’ve met the standards set or you haven’t. Which doesn’t necessarily make her awful, because by society standards she’s rather correct.

Whereas Margaret is all emotions and feeling. She’s almost childlike in her wonder at Kitty’s beauty and interactions with the others. She’s raw and without artifice. I can see the allure to a young man like Chris carrying the weight of propriety and responsibility on his shoulders. Margaret was and is a representation of the freedom from that.

I feel the need to reread as well. I love that our discussion has had me thinking on this book in so many ways. I thought I knew what my impressions were of it and now I feel like it’s far deeper than I first thought.

[Jess]

I was surprised to learn she was only 24 when she wrote this too! It reads like a far older and experienced voice. I think what strikes me is she’s acknowledging there is a time in life that we are at our happiest and will have a longing to return to that point when we are older and realize the value of that time. I don’t think I had that knowledge when I was 24; maybe an inkling of it.

Which made the book more meaningful to me as I realized the full scope of the moral dilemma West poses to us. Allow a man who’s mind has broken and taken him to a very happy time in his life to remain there or is the right thing to do is to bring him back to reality? I think we all know it’s not right to allow someone to remain in their delusions if it can be cured; but I see the temptation in it. The podcast pointed out the quote from the book “magic circles cannot be allowed to endure” and that kind of summed up the black and white nature of the decision with all the emotions removed from the decision making.

[Jess]

I have a copy of The Fountain Overflows that I really want to read now.

[Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.]

I loved The Fountain Overflows, one of my favourite books. I also loved This Real Night and have, but haven't yet read Cousin Rosamund. I want to read it but I'm a bit reluctant as I don't think she finished it, but I think it has been finished off by someone else. I need to just read it.

[Nidhi]

One of the all women ‘s group of which I am a member is currently reading The Fountain Overflows . There are mixed reactions about complex characters, I opted for this book because it was shorter. This year I couldn’t finish even a single hefty classic, and couldn’t concentrate on poetry.☹️