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A Christmas Carol - Staves 1 - 2 (hosted by Connie and Sara)
Loving this scene. Quite content to enjoy themselves.
Hi everyone, I started reading A Christmas Carol just two days ago and am now at Stave 2. Very late to the party but I am enjoying this book immensely even though I last read it 4 Christmases ago. Excellent discussion. Many thanks to Connie for a rich introduction to Dickens' motivation for writing this story and summary of Stave 1, the plenteous and wonderful illustrations (John Leech's especially) provided by so many members, Sara's summary of Stave 2, and lots of thoughtful comments. I could barely catch up.One of the things that struck me was how vivid and atmospheric Dickens' prose was. "Meanwhile the fog and darkness thickened so... The water-plug being left in solitude, its overflowings sullenly congealed, and turned to misanthropic ice." Apart from capturing the abysmally freezing winter weather, the palpable chill paralleled Scrooge's mean-spirited ways, his lack of charity, and hardness of heart. I appreciated also Jean and Jim Puskas' discussion on Dickens' distinctive prose style. Pardon this late participation.
France-Andrée wrote: "I always feel surprised that Ebenezer reacts to first ghost, it's like he is opened to change a second and then closed again. I agree with that Dickens was ahead of his time rooting adult defects i..."I agree - I'd forgotten that he's so immediately responsive to the first ghost.
Laysee wrote: "Hi everyone, I started reading A Christmas Carol just two days ago and am now at Stave 2. Very late to the party but I am enjoying this book immensely even though I last read it 4 Christmases ago. ..."Delighted to see you here, Laysee, and no pardons needed! I also love the way Dickens matches the atmosphere to Scrooge's soul.
I've finally caught up with the reading and have really enjoyed reading everyone's comments-and all the wonderful information provided by Connie and Sara.It really brings the book to life and adds meaning to the reading experience.
Plus-Dickens is just such a great writer in this one. Every word is a gem.
I love that picture, Old Fezziwig by John Leech. It sets such a happy mood. I also like seeing these good times in Scrooge's past, so we know there is hope for him. I am thinking "yes, yes, remember the good times."
Bionic Jean wrote: "Robin - Yes, the friends young Scrooge imagines are the characters from his story books. This is so poignant, I think, that they are only in his mind. And thanks Sara for reminding us that this was..."Note that a lot of Dickens' favorite books are humorous!
In this section, Scrooge begins to reexamine his recent actions, regretting how he turned away the boy singing carols (when he remembers how it was to be a boy) , and how he spoke to his clerk. (when he remembers the kindness of Fezziwig.) Fezziwig makes me think of Fuzzy Wig, which he wears!
Thank you, Rosemarie. Glad you have caught up to us. Debra - I also think Scrooge is reminded of feelings he had long forgotten existed, and I love the way Dickens ties what he is shown back to his present day grouchiness.
Robin "fuzzy wig" YES. lol.
I think that the way Scrooge is able to tie his past to his present is a huge indication that his tough exterior is starting to melt. He is beginning his redemption and it's beautiful to see!
Mod
Sara - Thanks for pointing up the opposite natures of Mr. Fezziwig and Scrooge - and for posting the marvellous illustration which surely has never been bettered :)
Robin - "Fuzzy wig" - nice! His name also reminds us of the word "festive". In fact the word "Fezziwig" is such a thoroughly delightful invention, that someone really should put it on our favourite names and characters thread!
"a lot of Dickens' favorite books are humorous" They were indeed! He loved the picaresque tales of the 18th century, full of wit and fun, and his own stories reflect that influence.
It is one of my bugbears that somewhere along the way, we have lost that delightful humour in many (if not most!) modern literary novels. Even when life is at its most serious, Charles Dickens shows us that there is still humour. And in my experience, life is exactly like that!
I am enjoying all the background info, I feel like I'm in the schoolroom with smart people who enjoy their topic. Thanks everyone! The illustrations are terrific also.I hadn't remembered that with the memories that come to life while being guided by the first spirit; the ice around his heart begins to be chipped away nor that he was so emotionally bereft when viewing them. Sobbing?, I just don't remember that reaction. I did remember his delight in seeing "old friends" and happier times.
The books & characters Scrooge identifies certainly touch a place in all of us who escape into stories for a multitude of reasons from a young age through adulthood.
I agree, Jean, about the humor. This kind of subtle, wry humor is almost non-existent now. I think we have also lost our ability to laugh at ourselves or to see the humor in imperfections. Lori I think the melting of Scrooge's heart is much easier to see in the book than is often portrayed in the movie versions. You are so right, it is "beautiful to see."
Sara wrote: "Thank you, Rosemarie. Glad you have caught up to us. Debra - I also think Scrooge is reminded of feelings he had long forgotten existed, and I love the way Dickens ties what he is shown back to h..."
Of course, in the Muppet version, Fozzy Bear becomes Fozziwig!
What about Ali Baba. He seems to be the woodcutter, to be kind to animals and boys, and a reference to folk tales, all wrapped up in one. Is that how Ali Baba appears to others? Or some other way?
I see the fairytale of Christmas Carol. But is also a folktale? That would explain the presence of Ali Baba.
Cynda wrote: "I see the fairytale of Christmas Carol. But is also a folktale? That would explain the presence of Ali Baba."I think it's just that Scrooge as a boy, and undoubtedly Dickens, read the 1001 Nights, which is where Ali Babi is found, along with Aladdin and others, just as he read Robinson Crusoe and other stories. There weren't a lot of books written just for children except educational or preachy ones, so young readers read what was in the house.
Right Robin. Ali Baba's name could be Dickens' incorporating a fond memory into the mix of the story--and young Ebenezer's endearment for a kind man.
Mod
He called himself "The Unparalleled Necromancer, Rhia Rhama Roos" (not one for modesty, was he, the Inimitable Boz!) and even invented his own magic tricks!
I recently attended a lecture which focused on him as a magician, and the professional magician who gave it did two of his tricks at the end :) (And Chris bought me the speaker/magician/author's book which was signed to me, with "Dickensian magic!") This is it: Charles Dickens Magician: Conjuring in Life, Letters and Literature
by Ian KeableThe author actually performed one of Charles Dickens's own invented tricks. It was the "Pudding Wonder" where he borrowed someone's hat and magically made and produced a pudding in it, slices of which were then distributed to all the children. This was around the time he wrote A Christmas Carol, in which (view spoiler)
Mod
There was a lot in the talk about playbills (early posters with text rather than pictures) from the late 1700's and early 1800s, and a lot of this entertainment seemed to be various individual animals with "magic powers".
All this made a lot of sense to me, from various details in his novels - especially about performing animals and his fascination with the theatre.
In Charles Dickens's time there was "Munito the Learned Dog" who could "read, write, cast accounts, play at dominos, distinguish colours, and play tricks with cards... he adds subtracts and multiplies". Charles Dickens wrote about Munito in his newspaper, but before that there had been a whole series of performing animals. There was a cat who could draw water from a well... but the most famous, with lots of playbills about him, was the "Learned Pig" who could do all this - and apparently read minds too!
Here's a link to a bit about the learned pig!
Charles Dickens made the name "Rhia Rhama Roos" up by pinching and combining the stage names of two real life "necromancers" as they called conjurers then, "Ramo Samee" and "Khia Khan Khruse".
So yes, Ali Baba was a big thing with Charles Dickens :)
Yes. I did see your list, Jean. Thank you because that list gave me a frame of reference. And your speaking now of magic does add meaning to young Ebenzer's experience. Very much in a nonliteral but definitely metaphorical setup: Suddenly--like magic--the father accepted the boy so that the boy became a man. I like this story better and better for all the little telling elements.
How charming an experience it must have been for you to see the lecture, for your husband to bring you the book, and to have such a meaningful inscription. Thanks for sharing your experience.
As usual, Jean, you have delighted me with the background details of Dickens' life. The lecture and the book sound marvelous. The lecture must have given you a particularly strong feeling of experiencing Dickens in a different way.
Mod
And I can just imagine him, with his great love of theatricals, dressing up in a flamboyant outfit to transform himself into "Rhia Rhama Roos" with his big top hat, stage make-up, and maybe surrounded by a swirling cape and Eastern silks in all colours of the rainbow. Charles Dickens would loudly act his socks off and probably have a few magic firework explosions set off in the background!
How he must have delighted all the children, each then being given the treasure of a slice of magic pudding! Something they'd never forget :)
And he leaves us with these impressions and feelings too, with his delightful descriptions of the Fezziwig family, and more extravagant descriptions to come. Everything is magical in this story, in a way, and larger than life.
I am truly enjoying the narrator of this story. This being my first reading of this tale, I didn't realize the narrator is almost another character. He's there on the first page:"Mind! I don't mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a doornail"
And i just noticed him again towards the end of Stave Two. Its the scene at Belle's house where her children are raucous and playing literally around her. It was so subtle that at first I thought I was reading Scrooge's thoughts, but I think its actually the narrator saying: "What would I not have given to be one of them!"
Am I wrong about that, or is it truly the narrator speaking there?
If I'm right, then Dickens is masterfully playing with first and third person narration. And from all the comments about how he loved performing, and how often he read this story to an audience, I imagine the narrator is Dickens himself.
Dickens as a magician that’s something I did not know. His stage name though makes me think of Roo in Winnie-the-Pooh and I was imagining Dickens bouncing around the stage. Thank you, Jean, and How lucky to go see a lecture about Dickens.
Bridget said: first I thought I was reading Scrooge's thoughts, but I think its actually the narrator saying: "What would I not have given to be one of them!"Am I wrong about that, or is it truly the narrator speaking there?
I was definitely thinking that those were Scrooge's thoughts, as he was realizing what he missed in life when he didn't go after Belle.
Scrooge's last look into his past opens with him sitting by the side of "a fair young girl", whom we are later told is Belle.His face had not the harsh and rigid lines of later years; but it had begun to wear the signs of care and avarice. There was an eager, greedy, restless motion in the eye, which showed the passion that had taken root, and where the shadow of the growing tree would fall.
This is the moment in which Scrooge turns away from his better self and begins to focus only on the lure of money and the twisted power it gives. When she questions him as to whether he would choose her now, we see the truth of his heart--he cannot even protest the truth of this with any vigor.
You may--the memory of what is past half make me hope you will--have pain in this. she says. And with Scrooge, standing here with the Ghost, Belle gets her wish.
This is the first memory Scrooge is shown that brings him no joy. He deems it "torture", right away, but the Spirit persists in conveying him to see Belle's life after, surrounded by her boisterous and joyful children.
[I was interested in Bridget's take on this section and the narrator, so I returned and read it again. I had originally thought of this also as Scrooge's thoughts, but after re-reading, I must agree with Bridget that this seems to be the narrator imposing himself into the tale. The entire section is written in the first person, but had been third person just sentences earlier. It is a very clever and subtle transition, but I do think the narrator is speaking here.]
When the father arrives, Scrooge cannot help envisioning himself in his stead.
And now Scrooge looked on more attentively than ever, when the master of the house, having his daughter leaning fondly on him, sat down with her and her mother at his own fireside; and when he thought that such another creature, quite as graceful and as full of promise, might have called him father, and been a spring-time in the haggard winter of his life, his sight grew very dim indeed.
The comparison becomes stark when the husband tells Belle of seeing Scrooge, counting his money, keeping his ledgers, while Marley dies.
This is the most significant loss of all, for this is the loss of connection, of humanity, of continuation of the human line; but also the loss of comfort, of love, of family. This is the reason this episode marks the limit of Scrooge's ability to tolerate the past. He knows, himself, the difference between the bright fireside he has witnessed and the stingy fireside he has left in his own apartment.
I believe it is significant that Scrooge snuffs out the Ghost of Christmas Past, rather than having him leave of his own will. This is precisely what he did in his life. He snuffed out his own soul, love and meaning. All was available to him, but he squashed it and chose the miserly life he has led.
As I read this section I could picture Scrooge's heart beginning to melt, especially when he started sobbing.He was so afraid of poverty that he ignored his emotional life-and ended up a sad old miser.
And money obviously didn't make him happy! He may have liked having power over people. But he had no appreciation of comforts, no interests except work, and no human connection.
The switch between a past Scrooge cherished and everything concerning Belle was a hard cut. I can understand that the sudden chance was too much for Scrooge and I remember being irritated in the past because he snuffs out the ghost but honestly, the sudden change was cruel. Scrooge had just started to open himself to his past and suddenly jumped to a point he couldn‘t take. It seems he is still majorly hurt by his past actions and buried this knowledge deep. I can understand that he won‘t look forward to meeting another ghost after this episode.
Sara I loved your observation: " I believe it is significant that Scrooge snuffs out the Ghost of Christmas Past, rather than having him leave of his own will. This is precisely what he did in his life. He snuffed out his own soul, love and meaning. All was available to him, but he squashed it and chose the miserly life he has led."I hadn't noticed this but I agree that it seems significant that Scrooge snuffed out the past when he could no longer endure it. This parallel with his snuffing out is his own joy and finer feelings is really interesting. It was an active choice for him to chose wealth over the other aspects of life that might have brought him happiness.
It is hard to change who you have become. Even though Scrooge has been reminded of happy and sad past times, he is holding on tight to what he has become. It is easy for me to believe he would push/force this ghost away. ... It has always been harder for me to believe that he changed.
Laura wrote: "Sara I loved your observation: " I believe it is significant that Scrooge snuffs out the Ghost of Christmas Past, rather than having him leave of his own will. This is precisely what he did in his ..."I too, was keen to this observation of Sara’s about Scrooge. Scrooge has to face the ugly past no matter how hard it is for him. He has to feel the hurt in order to understand that the change must happen. He can change, but he must make the choice himself, much like he made the choice early on to snuff out the meaning in his life. Now he must come to realize that there is more meaning to life and he will see that by revisiting the past hurts. But I think Scrooge must hurt through these memories in order to begin to change.
Basically, what I’m trying to say, is we are stronger when we face our adversities and we can appreciate life more when we’ve come through them.
I agree. We have to face our fear, guilt and other emotions and acknowledge them, and be a bit disgusted by them in order to really move on from them. Otherwise we are just pretending. All these insights seem to come naturally to Dickens.
The humor in episodic literature is the suppression of truth. Like when Scrooge pushes the extinguisher-cap on the spirit of Christmas Past. We recognize it as funny. In addition to the humor, I also see the pain. One can be be open to only to a finite amount of pain. A human being must have effective means to stopping the pain. Thank you extinguisher cap.
You are right. There is the 3rd person, distanced narrative which gives us the basic plot. But a certain "I" keeps popping in. When we are treated to the scene where Belle, now a matron, is playing with her children, Dickens interjects "I" many times. In life, he loved young children and playing games with them. In some ways, he may have been making up for the loss of his own childhood, which seems to have ended abruptly when he was put to work at age 12. Dickens has a strong affinity for his characters, and his "I" can't help but join in the tale he is creating.
On this 4th or so reading, I find myself drawn to Belle's warning to young Ebeneezer. "You fear the world too much. . . .All your other hopes have merged into the hope of being beyond the chance of it's sordid reproach," she tells him. She goes on to identify "Gain" as his master-passion. But let's back up a moment. What an interesting statement that he is afraid of the world's sordid reproach. Anyone have thoughts on that?
I'm joining the conversation late, and can't possibly read all 250 comments, so forgive me if I'm being redundant. Like many of you, I've read A Christmas Carol several times, and have seen countless movie adaptations. What's occurring to me this time that I haven't given much thought to in that past is Fred's father. His mother died in childbirth, so we can only assume that Fred was raised by his father (and a step-mother, perhaps?). He must have had a very happy, well-adjusted upbringing to be such an open, loving, and forgiving nephew to Scrooge. I daresay most people would have washed their hands of Scrooge by this time, and would have let him grumble in solitude. Fred doesn't seem to have an ulterior motive ($$), and we can't assume that Fred would be the beneficiary on Scrooge's passing, anyway. (Though that's another "what if" to ponder.) Perhaps if we were to get all psychological, Fred keeps coming back for more abuse because he's desperate for that link to his mother, and trying to find her through his uncle. But he's so good-natured about the whole thing, it really does seem as if he does it for Scrooge as much - or more - than for himself. So, whoever they are, kudos to Fred's father and whoever else had a hand in raising him for doing such a great job.
Mary Lou wrote: "I'm joining the conversation late, and can't possibly read all 250 comments, so forgive me if I'm being redundant. Like many of you, I've read A Christmas Carol several times, and have seen countle..."Great comment and no one has mentioned this so far.
Mary Lou, that’s very interesting about Fred. I do think too that he’s doing it for the sake of his mother, it is his link to her and he has to think that somewhere in there there is something to love in Scrooge since she loved him so.
Mod
I completely agree, and very much like the cosy feel we have with this story, which is mainly because of the direct speech I think, and intermittent use of the first person, as you both noticed. It always gives me a chill down my spine at the arrival of the first Spirit, when the curtains of Scrooge's bed were drawn aside. He was thus face to face with the apparition,
"as close to it," Charles Dickens says, "as I am now to you, and I am standing in the spirit at your elbow."
Oh wow! Yes, that is the author for sure (*quickly looks over her shoulder ...*)
When we read David Copperfield as a group, we noticed multiple voices - at least four - and when Charles Dickens came in himself, rather than as an omniscient narrator, it was always quite revealing.
Mod
I very much like your idea about Fred. It would be nice to know his back story. I think I'd just accepted what was said, that because he was Fanny's son, he was like her in temperament - but you're right, there must have been some nurture involved!
Mod
Mod
Q. How did Scrooge win the football game?
A. (view spoiler)
*groan* apologies!
What age the writer is suppose to be?
Mod
Sorry, I thought it might be unclear. I meant the jokester, i guess the writers of these tap deep into their boyhood (somehow they sound more like little boys puns that girls thoughts). Truly, it must be a fun time to come up with them, some of these must be old.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
David Copperfield (other topics)Winnie-the-Pooh (other topics)
Charles Dickens Magician: Conjuring in Life, Letters and Literature (other topics)
A Christmas Carol (other topics)
Tales of a Thousand and One Nights: Volume 1 (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Arthur Rackham (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Globe Fearon (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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Though Fezziwig makes a brief appearance, he is a very important figure in Scrooge's enlightenment. He represents the good employer, the opposite of Scrooge; a man who spreads joy and praise among his employees, builds them up, and makes them enjoy the simple pleasures of life.
The Fezziwigs love and respect people as individuals, and they spread the spirit of Christmas to everyone they know.
Mr. and Mrs. Fezziwig took their stations, one on either side of the door, and shaking hands with every person individually as he or she went out, wished him or her a Merry Christmas.
They give of themselves.
"He has spent but a few pounds of your mortal money; three or four perhaps. Is that so much that he deserves this praise?"
"It isn't that, Spirit. He has the power to render us happy or unhappy; to make our service light or burdensome; a pleasure or a toil." "The happiness he gives, is quite as great as if it cost a fortune."
Old Fezziwig by John Leech