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message 1: by Darkcain11, Merlin (last edited Oct 07, 2020 07:25AM) (new)

Darkcain11 | 324 comments Mod
Ok, so the next book will be Mirror Mirror which will be the 18th book of the series. Which will deal with Thomas most likely. If we go by butcher's comments there will be five books after that.
So what are some unresolved questions that need to be answered by the end of the series?


message 2: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments Just a few that come to mind
Identify and deal with the black council.
Utter destruction of the black court of vampires.
Harry’s and Molly’s further fate in winter.
Release of the British prisoner. In my opinion that will coincide with a new wielder for amoracchius/ Excalibur.
Ferrovax


message 3: by Marco (last edited Oct 12, 2020 06:33AM) (new)

Marco Munoz | 69 comments A few more plot threads that are still hanging (in order of them popping into my mind as I try to remember):

1. Who is Cowl?
2. What happened to Chandler?
3. Did He Who Walks Behind was sent to kill or to test Harry (at the gas station)?
4. What does it mean and what are the implications of the whole starborn issue?
5. What happened with Nicodemus after Skin Game?
6. What happened with the Holy Grail (related to number 5)?
7. What else happened at Bianca's party (remember when Cowl said: "a great many things of significance happened that night, most of which you are unaware of")?
8. Who attacked Arctis Tor in Proven Guilty, anihilating Mab's personal guard, and why (we know Thorned Namshiel was involved, but who else)?
9. Who possessed Vittorio Malvora (I'm guessing a Walker here, but I'm not sure)?
10. What is the deal and game of Polonius Lartessa (I'm guessing here she's been taken by Nemesis, but I also find it hard to believe that an angel, even a Fallen, could be overcome by that)?
11. What's the deal with the whole descendants of kings with the Swords?
12. Who in the Church is leaking coins so quickly (more of Nemesis's lackeys)?
13. What do people see when they soulgaze into Harry? This one is REALLY freaking me out.
14. Who/What is this "Evil Harry"?
15. What's the deal with this new faction so casually introduced, "The Librarians"?


message 4: by Alexis (new)

Alexis | 21 comments I've got a couple:

-What is the history between Mab and the original Merlin and how does it intersect with Harry's history? Because the titan referenced Mab trailing after Merlin while she was mortal and we've still got both the line of masters and apprentices connecting Harry and Merlin, as well as the whole thing with Harry now being the Warden of Deamonreach (see our previous speculation thread back in the group discussions). And you can't tell me that there isn't a thread in there somewhere.

-As to the point about the British prisoner, does Mab's teased history fit into that at all?

-Where does Marcone fit in the whole Knights of the Blackened Denarius hierarchy? And, by the way, where did he even get that coin in the first place?

-What's the fallout from having Justine, who was Nemesis infected, so close to the heart of the White Court?

-And, hey, remember that one short story where Lara and Thomas are both part of a society trying to wipe certain bad news entities out of the collective human memory? How does that play in?

-McCoy and Dresden have yet to fully hash out everything, so I assume that has to come up at some point.

-As does Harry's status with the Council.

-The books have these repeated hints about how "someday" Harry's going to take Marcone down, so I assume at some point by the end of the series they'll get into it for real.


message 5: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments Harry taking Marcone down, just got even more likely, Harry always respected Marcone to a degree, but by turning Denarian, he stepped over a line. Also those two are now going to have a much more satisfying boss fight.


message 6: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
Christian wrote: "Harry taking Marcone down, just got even more likely, Harry always respected Marcone to a degree, but by turning Denarian, he stepped over a line. Also those two are now going to have a much more s..."

Agreed. But didn't Marcone say or imply that his intention was to take the coin for this smackdown because it was needed? I got the impression he intended to get rid of it afterward. I agree with Harry that Marcone has a will that might be able to refrain from being taken over by the coin, but it's still not a given. It's just as likely that he decides he likes it and decides to keep it.

Whatever happens, they're going to throw down.


message 7: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments My understanding from battle ground was that “did you think I stop with the title” meant to indicate this was Marcone’s next step in building his power base.


message 8: by Marco (new)

Marco Munoz | 69 comments Alexis wrote: "I've got a couple:

-Where does Marcone fit in the whole Knights of the Blackened Denarius hierarchy? And, by the way, where did he even get that coin in the first place?."


The first part is an interesting question, especially considering that Marcone always work form Marcone, and nobody else. However, the Denarians have been shown to only be "loosely" united. Thorned Namshiel himself was actually closer to Tessa than Nicodemus. So I do not think Marcone is anywhere in that hierarchy, he is just Marcone... for the moment.

The second part of your question I can answer: Thorned Namshiel's coin was taken by Michael in Small Favor. After killing the black knight, Michael cut of his hand with the ring, and put it in a pouch in his belt. Then Michael was injured as he was being lifted to up to the helicopter, and they took him away. When talking with Sanya afterwards in St. Mary of the Angels, Sanya mentions that Namshiel's coin was not with Michael, and they don't know where it is. Sanya even mentions that they took Michael's armor off in the helicopter, to stop the bleeding. This means that it was taken by Marcone's people as they carried Michael to the hospital. Even Harry suspected so after talking with Sanya.

That small part was actually very well done by Butcher. A foreshadowing that paid off 7 books later, hahaha.


message 9: by Alexis (new)

Alexis | 21 comments Marco wrote: "Alexis wrote: "I've got a couple:

-Where does Marcone fit in the whole Knights of the Blackened Denarius hierarchy? And, by the way, where did he even get that coin in the first place?."

The firs..."


Oh, I forgot about that.


message 10: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
My first question before I even finished BG was WHEN (NOT if) does Murphy COME BACK!!! *whimper* Because she MUST. Not only because I want her back but because all that talk about the einharjaren and how they can only return once the memory of everyone is gone. That rule's just begging to be broken.

Does anyone think I'm wrong and Murphy won't return? Because I can't see Butcher tossing aside such a well developed character so far ahead of the apocalyptic trilogy he's been talking about. Besides, I would be very, very upset. :-(


message 11: by Jeanie (new)

Jeanie | 110 comments Monica wrote: "My first question before I even finished BG was WHEN (NOT if) does Murphy COME BACK!!! *whimper* Because she MUST. Not only because I want her back but because all that talk about the einharjaren a..."

There is a loophole... erase everyone's memory of Murphy. I'm not sure I'd enjoy Murphy returning with Harry not knowing her. But such powerful memories couldn't be suppressed forever, so maybe she could stay and we get a Harry and Murphy together again.


message 12: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments Monica wrote: "My first question before I even finished BG was WHEN (NOT if) does Murphy COME BACK!!! *whimper* Because she MUST. Not only because I want her back but because all that talk about the einharjaren a..."

As much as i hate the thought, but i think like Susan before her Murphy is gone for good. the only caveat might be the big A apocalypse might make Odin throw out the rules and release all of his Warriors.
But from a storytelling point of view, Murphy was getting more and more outside her weight class, now she will be a further reminder for Harry's permanent guilt ridden Psyche. There is no way for him not to beat himself up over her death.


message 13: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments There is one more plot thread foreshadowed in Peace talks, which I'm desperately want to see resolved.

Maggie Dresden starting to go out on dates.

Harry compares her to Hope and think its only a few more years before that point. Which brings up how old is Maggie canonically?

I tried to make an estimate and without the time jump between Skin game and Peacetalks, I'd put her at 10 perhaps 11. Any ideas?


message 14: by Alexis (new)

Alexis | 21 comments Christian wrote: "There is one more plot thread foreshadowed in Peace talks, which I'm desperately want to see resolved.

Maggie Dresden starting to go out on dates.

Harry compares her to Hope and think its only a ..."


The thought of this is endlessly entertaining to me.


message 15: by Caryl (new)

Caryl Huffstetler | 90 comments Christian wrote: "There is one more plot thread foreshadowed in Peace talks, which I'm desperately want to see resolved.

Maggie Dresden starting to go out on dates.

Harry compares her to Hope and think its only a ..."

I think you've got the canonical age correct after checking the official timeline on Jim's website.

Now, by 13-14 girls are beginning to notice boys and vice versa. Harry can slow the dating aspect down by making rules but his best defense is going to be recruiting Toot Toot and friends as Maggie's chaperones. ;-) I'll bet Toot Toot can work some mischief on any date of Maggie's either he or Dresden don't like.


message 16: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments Caryl I don’t think toot toot is the right guy for that, he expresses in storm front a great interest in „human sports“.


message 17: by Caryl (new)

Caryl Huffstetler | 90 comments That's a good point. However, Toot's loyalty to Harry supersedes his interest in human sporting. If Harry says Maggie is not allowed to sport yet, Toot wouldn't understand it but he'd be on board. However, perhaps there are better choices. Besides, it's a moot point until Maggie can go out on a date without Mouse. ;-)


message 18: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments Caryl wrote: "That's a good point. However, Toot's loyalty to Harry supersedes his interest in human sporting. If Harry says Maggie is not allowed to sport yet, Toot wouldn't understand it but he'd be on board. ..."

And we all know the mooch is having more sense than most people.


message 19: by Caryl (new)

Caryl Huffstetler | 90 comments Christian wrote: "Caryl wrote: "That's a good point. However, Toot's loyalty to Harry supersedes his interest in human sporting. If Harry says Maggie is not allowed to sport yet, Toot wouldn't understand it but he'd..."

Absolutely, Mouse is a good boy.


message 20: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments ... and everybody says so.


message 21: by Marco (new)

Marco Munoz | 69 comments A couple more plot threads that I forgot to mention before:

16. Who or what killed Malcolm Dresden? (In Grave Peril it is mentioned that it was supernaturally orchestrated.)
17. What is the "Rent"? Grey has to charge 1 USD for Rent. Note that it is always capitalized, meaning it is a proper noun.
18. What is Empty Night? Jim Butcher throws around several capitalized concepts, meaning they are proper nouns, over the series. They clearly foreshadow something.


message 22: by Caryl (new)

Caryl Huffstetler | 90 comments Marco wrote: "A couple more plot threads that I forgot to mention before:

16. Who or what killed Malcolm Dresden? (In Grave Peril it is mentioned that it was supernaturally orchestrated.)
17. What is the "Rent"..."

Well, the source of the information about Malcolm's death is a demon, right? Maybe he's not being quite truthful? Or maybe he is? So, yeah, inquiring minds want to know.

The 'rent' answer may be held up until the follow up series Jim's been talking about with Grey as the MC.

Indeed, isn't Empty Night alluded to and kind of explained in the short story, Back Up? IIRC it's referring to an end of the world/reality, all the stars in the sky are gone because reality has been destroyed. This would be the end result of losing the Oblivion War.

Somebody correct me if I've got this wrong.


message 23: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
I think you've got that right, Caryl. But the phrase I want more details on is Stars and Stones, which we pretty much confirmed in BG is not just an empty phrase.


message 24: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
Oh, and what is Molly's beef with Lara.

And, since it happened twice in this book, but has been happening since the beginning: what do people see when they soul gaze Harry? And why are they so freaked out?

And - ok this isn't really a plot thread - but how did Michael figure out Molly was the Winter Lady? It was a nice twist to the scene, and gave Molly a nice homecoming, but I can't quite see how he would have figured out what had happened.


message 25: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments Monica wrote: "Oh, and what is Molly's beef with Lara.

And, since it happened twice in this book, but has been happening since the beginning: what do people see when they soul gaze Harry? And why are they so fre..."


As Harry managed to frighten the Kraken with the soulgaze, I'm not sure i really want to know what they see at the soulgaze.


message 26: by Caryl (new)

Caryl Huffstetler | 90 comments Monica wrote: "Oh, and what is Molly's beef with Lara.

And, since it happened twice in this book, but has been happening since the beginning: what do people see when they soul gaze Harry? And why are they so fre..."

Michael reads Harry like an open book. Harry must have told him about the loss of both the Summer and Winter Ladies on Demonreach. Add that to Molly's 'new job' and distancing herself from her family. I'm sure the former Knight and his not dull witted wife were able to put 2 and 2 together and get 4.


message 27: by Caryl (new)

Caryl Huffstetler | 90 comments Monica wrote: "Oh, and what is Molly's beef with Lara.

And, since it happened twice in this book, but has been happening since the beginning: what do people see when they soul gaze Harry? And why are they so fre..."

Molly is still carrying a bit of a torch for Harry apparently. At least enough of one to want to protect him from powers that could kill him. Or it could, according to a certain fan faction, simply be green-eyed jealousy. Why would she want Harry to marry anyone if there was even a million to one chance she could have him at some time in the future? So solid answers, just lots of speculative ones.


message 28: by Caryl (new)

Caryl Huffstetler | 90 comments Monica wrote: "Oh, and what is Molly's beef with Lara.

And, since it happened twice in this book, but has been happening since the beginning: what do people see when they soul gaze Harry? And why are they so fre..."

I don't think Jim is ever gonna show us Harry's soul. If he does it'll be in the very last book. Just because he knows it drives us all crazy and because our own imaginations come up with so many more variables than could a single author.


message 29: by Contrarius (last edited Oct 15, 2020 10:11AM) (new)

Contrarius | 22 comments I'm convinced that Harry will end up with Molly eventually. That's been clear to me for ages -- I mean, if nothing else, wizards live a helluva lot longer than humans do. That's why I had been expecting Murphy to die -- she had to be gotten rid of somehow to allow for the inevitable Harry/Molly pair-up.

Harry may even marry Lara, but if he does it won't last long.


message 30: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
Caryl wrote: "Molly is still carrying a bit of a torch for Harry apparently. At least enough of one to want to protect him from powers that could kill him ..."

I hadn't even thought about that! Of course she'd be jealous. Harry will be marrying Lara. And I agree, Caryl, that if Jim shows us what people see, it'll be in the last book. But I do think there's a good chance he'll do that, because he mentions it so much. It's like he doesn't want us to forget. As if.

I agree, though I'm not thrilled about it, with Contrarius that Harry will eventually end up with Molly because they will basically age together, and if they continue in their present roles, it will probably be a natural progression. I just can't get past the fact that he met her as a child. Plus, MURPHY. I am Team Murphy still. Always. Insert crying emojis galore.


message 31: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments I would also feel that Molly and Harry is just wrong, for some of the same reasons Monica just mentioned.
Molly might be one of the other characters not making it out of the end.


message 32: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
Who do we think will make it to the end? That might be the shorter list. Harry, obviously, though I'm not sure he make it *past* the end. Michael, I think is a safe bet, and his family. Really, just about everyone else is fair game, including Molly.

Except Mouse. Mouse is a very good dog. Mouse is staying. (Oh! That's right, Maggie. Mouse and Maggie, definitely.)


message 33: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments I wouldn’t be surprised to find harry dying in the end, just taking the biggest ba with him.

I further agree that if he kills Maggie or mouse, he will have a mob in front of his house.


message 34: by Darkcain11, Merlin (new)

Darkcain11 | 324 comments Mod
Ok, so in Cold days bob mentioned things can change on Halloween. Not only Immortals becoming mortals. I think it was also hinting at changing things. I don't think Harry and Molly will stay as Winter Knight and Lady. At some point, they will and a way to remove the mantles.


message 35: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments As a dire prediction, I could see Molly having to follow in Mab’s footsteps, I don’t see her returning to humanity. She will be another one of Harry’s heartbreaking moments. I would hate to lose Mab, as she is such a fantastic character, but as Jim keeps on repeating he is a lazy writer, and he has now thrown in that the lady follows the queen in succession, now to often to ignore.


message 36: by Darkcain11, Merlin (last edited Oct 15, 2020 07:29PM) (new)

Darkcain11 | 324 comments Mod
Hmmm, who sees Ebenezer dying and Harry taking the black staff back to the winter mother at some point.


message 37: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments I’m pretty sure that Ebenezar is going to die, I was even a bit surprised he made it through battleground, I assume as soon as he and Harry make peace between each other he is turning into a redshirt.

I can further see that the Blackstaff will be “destroyed”, Harry handing i5 over to mother winter would be one such way.


message 38: by Darkcain11, Merlin (new)

Darkcain11 | 324 comments Mod
Christian wrote: "I’m pretty sure that Ebenezar is going to die, I was even a bit surprised he made it through battleground, I assume as soon as he and Harry make peace between each other he is turning into a redshi..."

Oh just thought of how Ebenezar could die and let me know what you think. What if he died saving Thomas. Putting way his hatred of Vampires in that moment to save the grandson he never had a chance to know.


message 39: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments My guess is that he will go down fighting, like his grandson “doing the right thing”. I wouldn’t put any money on him dying for Thomas, dying for Harry is a different thing, but let’s put Maggie’s life in danger and I suddenly see all of them putting their life at risk.


message 40: by Jeanie (new)

Jeanie | 110 comments Darkcain11 wrote: "Ok, so in Cold days bob mentioned things can change on Halloween. Not only Immortals becoming mortals. I think it was also hinting at changing things. I don't think Harry and Molly will stay as Win..."

I don't think Harry and Molly will stay with winter either. As for the mandatory moving up of Molly to Queen if Mab dies... not even Mab wants that. Gave me the shivers when Mab told Harry to kill Molly the moment he might hear Mab has died. She knows that for both Harry and Molly that it isn't the role either wants Molly forced into and death would be better. Jim has told us there is an out on Halloween, so his "lazy writer" applies to that as well.


message 41: by Christian (new)

Christian | 148 comments Jeanie wrote: "Darkcain11 wrote: "Ok, so in Cold days bob mentioned things can change on Halloween. Not only Immortals becoming mortals. I think it was also hinting at changing things. I don't think Harry and Mol..."

But technically he has used the Halloween Situtation already in Cold days.
Molly having to take over as Queen gets mentioned in Cold Days, Skin game and Battle Ground. Admittedly Mab doesn't think that this would be a good idea, but that doesn't really change how often the topic is brought up.


message 42: by Jeanie (new)

Jeanie | 110 comments Christian wrote: "Jeanie wrote: "Darkcain11 wrote: "Ok, so in Cold days bob mentioned things can change on Halloween. Not only Immortals becoming mortals. I think it was also hinting at changing things. I don't thin..."

Problems get mentioned a lot... solutions not so much. The "Molly must succeed Mab" frequency can serve in the same way that numerous mentions of the Outsiders do. Of course, the thing about Jim is that he may mention a potential problem or solution only once, or numerous times... but we can't say what it will be until Jim unleashes it. He can even unleash an Ethniu without ever telling us about her beforehand.


message 43: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
It does feel like Molly is heading for Winter Queen, though. It seems like she's already stepped so far into that world, it would be hard for her to step back. Harry on the other hand, works every minute - or most of them - of every day staving off the pull of Winter. I can see him ridding himself of the mantle, but Molly, not so much.

I like the idea of Harry returning the Black Staff to Mother Winter. But why wouldn't he keep it? It's a way to up his power, when he's kind of sucked up all the power laying around for the taking.

@Marco, what's this Librarians? Am I forgetting a detail revealed amid the battle?


message 44: by Marco (new)

Marco Munoz | 69 comments Chapter 36, page 379, of Battle Ground. When discussing how to contain the situation, Lara mentions that "there's no way to keep the LIbrarians out entirely now".

And when asked who is this division, she mentions that they are the Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress, also known as Librum Bellum, or Men in Black.

When you think about it, it makes sense: the series goes on and on about how information is power, and just imagine how much information the Library of Congress manages. I am just speculating now, but it is certainly possible that at some point the Library of Congress ran into one or two books on the supernatural, noticed it is real, and decided to do something about it, learning more and controlling the information.

With that couple of lines, Butcher just created a wealth of possibilities to explore.


message 45: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
Wow, talk about a throw away line going deeper. I'm glad I'm rereading already. So much to watch for.


message 46: by Monica, White Council (new)

Monica T. Rodriguez (monicatrodriguez) | 374 comments Mod
I realized I mixed myself up after reading an answer regarding Molly's anger with Lara. The explanation was that she's jealous bc they'll be getting married. But Molly was clearly angry at the beginning, when they got off the boat. So not bc they're getting married. (Unless perhaps she got the memo first from Mab. But she was just as surprised as they were, so no.) And while she could be jealous of her, I don't think she's been around them together enough for that. Unless there was some certain instance I'm not remembering. I got the impression it was something more specific.


message 47: by Caryl (new)

Caryl Huffstetler | 90 comments Marco wrote: "Chapter 36, page 379, of Battle Ground. When discussing how to contain the situation, Lara mentions that "there's no way to keep the LIbrarians out entirely now".

And when asked who is this divisi..."

Somebody watched WareHouse 13 and blended it with the Noah Wiley vehicle, The Librarian and its followup series. New, mortal adversaries or allies? I'm hoping allies for Harry.


message 48: by Marco (new)

Marco Munoz | 69 comments Caryl wrote: "Marco wrote: "Chapter 36, page 379, of Battle Ground. When discussing how to contain the situation, Lara mentions that "there's no way to keep the LIbrarians out entirely now".

And when asked who ..."


ha ha ha, I thought of the same thing! I really liked that first Librarian movie. I never did follow up on the next ones, or the series, though. It's on my pending list.


message 49: by Jeanie (new)

Jeanie | 110 comments don't forget Brandon Sanderson's Alkatraz and the Evil Librarians! ;P


message 50: by Darkcain11, Merlin (new)

Darkcain11 | 324 comments Mod
oh no the Cosmere is coming to dresden


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