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Jane and Prudence
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Sept 2020 buddyread: Jane and Prudence: Barbara Pym
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Tracey, Yorkshire White Rose.
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Sep 26, 2020 10:48AM
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This is my first Pym and I am very excited. Because I am new to her, the fans of Pym can feel free to educate me! I will happily soak up any info that you think is useful to a newbie 🙂
That's great, Tracey.I'm excited about this read too, Elke!
I recently learned that Jane Austen
was her greatest influence.
Her books are ideal group reads.
In case anyone needs a copy of the book, it's available at archive.org.
https://archive.org/details/janeprude...
In Jane and Prudence, one character ironically compares herself to Austen’s matchmaking heroine Emma Woodhouse.
(perfect timing or a coincidence).
Perfect timing, indeed!
Has anyone else started? I'm going to start this today. It's my 2nd Pym. My first was - Excellent Women which I LOVED.
Hi Brenda,Yes, I have started the book,
I read Excellent women a while
back and very much enjoyed, didn't
you like Miss Pym's irony?
Hi Ruth!I’m afraid this has gone over my head. I thought maybe you meant with Prudence name? But then thought it might be a Jane Austen reference? I’m afraid I’m a bit thick headed on this.
Hello Ladies, I too have started reading this, my very first Pym and I am very glad to have begun it, I only read chapter 1 and I am already fascinated by both Jane and Prudence!What struck me from the very beginning of the novel was the theme of Expectations: the vicar's wife is expected to be so and so (a mother of at least 2) and do so and so and the spinster is expected to either eventually get married or produce some sort of purpose to herself. Neither of these women cannot simply be. Straight from the beginning we are even told their walking together on the streets of Oxford may seem unlikely, because of their age difference.
The conversation between Jane, Prudence, their old college professor and other wives of clergymen is the most striking and I do believe it mostly reflects what Ruth was asking about, the irony of Miss Pym in her writing. (correct me if I'm wrong, Ruth!)
Miss Birkinshaw rudely remarks to Prudence, unmarried: "I never like to ask people in your position exactly what it is they do."
Prudence explains she is a personal assistant to which one of the wives patronisingly remarks: "I often think work like that must be ample compensation for not being married".
After this they turn to attacking Jane and the "unfortunately modern cathedral" she is soon to move to.
But it is all done quite subtly, with a whiff of the upper stiff lip expectation, in my opinion Pym here makes satire of a society based on expectations, supposition and the bad habit of projecting one's own frustrations on others to mask our own weaknesses. No different than Austen, as well. Pym's humour is rather austenesque.
I can't be sure what year is the action happening in, but the book was published in 1953 and Prudence smokes, can live alone, have a job. Society seems much more liberal. Jane has fulfilled her purpose in society's eyes by getting married to a clergyman, as expected.
And still, neither of them can just be.
Quick edit: I sooo enjoyed encountering the word "frumps", I don't know why, I just find it hilarious 😅
Thank you May! I feel like even though there isn’t much happening there is really a lot going on. Subtleties galore.
I wondered if it was set closer to the war as they talk about meat being hard to get and rationing, but just did a search and apparently meat was still rationed until July 4, 1954. I’d never realized that. So presumably after the war.
I do find the comments related to the rationing interesting, there do seem to be a few instances. I like this view into life at the time that I had no idea of. I'm in chapter 4. There is a poet mentioned Coventry Patmore who is also new to me. I've found a few volumes free on kindle so out of curiosity I think I'll read some poems.
Brenda, you're at chapter 4 already, that's it, I'm catching up by tomorrow!I must say, I do enjoy the mentioning of various writers, a new one for me was Charlotte Mary Yonge, Victorian therefore I will probably read something by her 😁
message 14:
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Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.
(last edited Oct 05, 2020 12:51PM)
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May wrote: I must say, I do enjoy the mentioning of various writers, a new one for me was Charlotte Mary Yonge, Victorian therefore I will probably read something by herOh I missed that one! Thanks, I'm going to look her up too. The nice thing about Victorian Authors is you can find a lot of free kindle downloads! Which I've just done again. :)
Tania wrote: I knew rationing went on well after the war, mum says that they were always given swerts because they felt like they had to use up the ration. We, on the otjer hand, weren't allowed to spend more than 10p a week on sweets. Even now too much sugar makes me feel sick. Bloody hippy parents! Oh Tania that's hilarious! Unfortunately being an American a lot of the history is lost on me. It's nice to have books to enlighten me. Here's another one... I only thought there were hippies in the US. We had Woodstock and San Francisco, CA. I didn't realize it was worldwide. hahahhahha
I have the same problem with sweets as well, although we were not so restricted. I think as I "mature" my body seems to get more sensitive. I don't think I quite like it. LOL
Ruth wrote: "In Jane and Prudence, one character ironically compares herself to Austen’s matchmaking heroine Emma Woodhouse.(perfect timing or a coincidence).."
Well. Jane has about as much success as Emma Woodhouse does... LOL
Lady Mayfair wrote: "Hello Ladies, I too have started reading this, my very first Pym and I am very glad to have begun it, I only read chapter 1 and I am already fascinated by both Jane and Prudence!What struck me fr..."
I agree Expectations does play quite a role in this novel. I was also struck by the emphasis on how men need to be taken care, especially needing some form of meat! But in all seriousness, it was intriguing to me to see how caring for the men in the novel plays such a pivotal part for the lives of the women.
Tania wrote: "I knew rationing went on well after the war, mum says that they were always given swerts because they felt like they had to use up the ration. We, on the otjer hand, weren't allowed to spend more t..."That is one thing that always stands out to me in a Pym novel. The lovely descriptions of the food and drink- hot buttered toast, creamy Brie, etc. And when Prudence gets jilted she treats herself to such a lovely meal, splurging on smoked salmon! I was also struck how all the delicious food descriptions take place in between when Jane/Prudence lunch at the vegetarian restaurant having salads. I think food is important because of the rationing that took place so reading such descriptions bring about a sense of comfort and looking forward to good things?
Brenda wrote: "There is a poet mentioned Coventry Patmore who is also new to me. I've found a few volumes free on kindle so out of curiosity I think I'll read some poems...."Can I just say, I loved that scene. I thought immediately "Prudence, you had better get with that Geoffrey Manifold!!"
I have to mention it... because it made me laugh and marvel at Pym's humor... did anyone else find it funny when Mr. Driver brings his marrow for the Harvest Thanksgiving (or Festival if you are feeling rather pagan)? And presents it to the ladies with Mrs Dogged saying " It's the biggest one we've had so far" and Mrs. Morrow reverently saying it's magnificent. Then Jane thinks she's just witnessed some primitive kind of ritual to which she can't dare guess at the significance. I thought OMG. I can't believe Pym went there but it's funny. And kind of sets the stage in introducing us to Mr. Driver.
Lady Mayfair wrote: "I can't be sure what year is the action happening in, but the book was published in 1953 and Prudence smokes, can live alone, have a job. Society seems much more liberal. Jane has fulfilled her purpose in society's eyes by getting married to a clergyman, as expected...."I think that is one thing I enjoyed abut this book. The progressiveness really gets put on display when next to the accepted gender role of women for the time. I think one reason I love Pym is that she seems to really have a good grasp on how women think in all avenues or stages of their lives. She understands loneliness, isolation, and the need for belonging but also independence.
Total Random Comment: I just discovered after reading the introduction in my book, Pym apparently destroyed her diaries after a very bitter break up in a love affair. And she's based Fabian Driver on that ex-lover!
Brenda wrote: "Hi Ruth!I’m afraid this has gone over my head. I thought maybe you meant with Prudence name? But then thought it might be a Jane Austen reference? I’m afraid I’m a bit thick headed on this."
Hi Brenda,
That's good, I hadn't thought of that
irony- Prudence for Jane.
Sorry, I should have elaborated,
I was referring to irony in Miss Pym's
writing, she is skillful in it's usage.
Lady Mayfair wrote: "Hello Ladies, I too have started reading this, my very first Pym and I am very glad to have begun it, I only read chapter 1 and I am already fascinated by both Jane and Prudence!What struck me fr..."
Hi May,
You changed your new profile
picture, it's nice. 😊
I read that section twice and thought
the same, why couldn't Prudence
just be accepted, they diminished her
for being unmarried.
Surely these clergyman's wives have
read about kindness to others, being
kind and showing kindness.
In their exclusive society, they failed
in their purpose, how's that for a hearty
slice of irony. Tsk! Tsk!
I can almost hear Miss Pym chuckling.
Yes, May this is what I meant.
Miss Birkinshaw rudely remarking
on Prudence's "position", she may
as well have stated "condition".
And "one of the wives patronisingly
remarks: "I often think work like that
must be ample compensation for not
being married". Compensation indeed!
What would an unmarried woman
do? Earn an honest living to support
herself, of course.
Miss Birkinshaw and the patronizing
woman are rather stupid women in
making these remarks.
The darts upon Prudence are overt
where as Jane, one of their "own",
they are are subtle.
Projection, I definitely agree.
Thinking of these married women, how
many are stuck in a loveless marriage?
I don't sense contentment in that
group, do you?
There is an undercurrent of resentment
towards Prudence for choosing to remain
single, not obeying societies expectation
to be married.
Miss Pym confronting expectation
with "why" must one be married in
this novel would be perfectly ideal.
"Expectation" and to "be" are the
operative words in this novel.
Frumps, this loaded description was
amusing. 😄
Charlotte Mary Yonge is on my
challenge and Victober list.
Brenda wrote: "I wondered if it was set closer to the war as they talk about meat being hard to get and rationing, but just did a search and apparently meat was still rationed until July 4, 1954. I’d never realiz..."Brenda,
I knew about the rations because
of 84, Charing Cross Road,
but not the meat rations ending
that late, on our celebrated day of Independence.
Poet Coventry Patmore is also new
to me.
Tania wrote: "I knew rationing went on well after the war, mum says that they were always given swerts because they felt like they had to use up the ration. We, on the otjer hand, weren't allowed to spend more t..."Hi Tania,
Mine weren't hippies, but we weren't
allowed to have many sweets; even
now I don't care for it unless I'm in
a mood for chocolate.
Incidentally, you mentioned
Miss Pym's novels completed
dates and published dates
out of order.
Would you mind repeating that
for us, please.
Primrose Jess wrote: "Ruth wrote: "In Jane and Prudence, one character ironically compares herself to Austen’s matchmaking heroine Emma Woodhouse.(perfect timing or a coincidence).."
Well. Jane has about as much succe..."
Hi Jess,
Miss Pym's perspective on this
will be delightful. 😄
Ruth wrote: Brenda,I knew about the rations because
of 84, Charing Cross Road,
but not the meat rations ending
that late, on our celebrated day of Independence.
I’ve yet to read this, itching to read it, and I’m quite positive it won a poll in one of my groups so I’ll get to it soon!
Incidentally, I found this article that lists the common characters in her books. I believe the dates are publication, but not positive...http://agirlwalksintoabookstore.blogs...
@Jess, all those scenes mentioning how men need their meat and the appalling moments where men are given meat in restaurants but women are given one egg were so BLOODY ENFURIATING!!!! It actually took me by surprise as I guess before this book I just never truly stopped and realised we used to... gender discriminate the food rations in the restaurants?????? *inserts many swear words here*How mindbendingly disgusting that such a thing was ever acceptable.
I agree with you all, Food is a big topic in this novel, it feels as if the novel was even constructed around lunch time, tea time, dinner time. Many conversations revolve around food and it's pretty clear that society had to adapt massively, from growing their own vegetable gardens to being in cahoots with one's grocer or butcher. One even had to expand their palate with new dishes such as hearts casserole. And hide what they are eating from their friends and neighbours. But everyone in the village knew what everyone else was eating, anyway.. 😄
@Ruth, I'm glad you like my picture ^_^ That clergymen's wives conversation was so annoying, exactly because of the reason you mentioned: they ought know better than this! They should be the first to advocate for kindness, love and acceptance but instead are the first to throw stones when there isn't even anything to throw stones at!
Annoying, but at the same time, i actually expected no less as it only shows me how deeply unhappy they are in their own situation (having married, as per tradition, to please society, which they consider a Success in the beginning, until reality hits) and this is just a way for them to deflect, hoping others won't notice.
I love this book actually, it's so.... realistic.
Mod
Miss Pym's novels completed
dates and published dates
out of order.
Would you mind repeating that
for us, please."
I'll try. Writing order-
Some Tame Gazelle 1935
Civil to Strangers and Other Writings 1936
Crampton Hodnet 1940
Excellent Women 1952
Jane and Prudence 1953
Less Than Angels 1955
A Glass of Blessings 1958
No Fond Return Of Love 1961
An Unsuitable Attachment 1963
The Sweet Dove Died 1968
An Academic Question 1970
Quartet in Autumn 1976
The Sweet Dove Died 1977 (ish)
The years I've put in are the years they were written; I'll see if I can number them by published year.
While looking this up, I cam across À la Pym: The Barbara Pym Cookery Book, a cookbook featuring recipes from her novels.
message 33:
by
Tania, Gloucestershire Wild Daffodil.
(last edited Oct 06, 2020 07:58AM)
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rated it 5 stars
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Some Tame Gazelle (1950)
Excellent Women (1952)
Jane and Prudence (1953)
Less Than Angels (1955)
A Glass of Blessings (1958)
No Fond Return of Love (1961)
Quartet in Autumn (1977)
The Sweet Dove Died (1978)
A Few Green Leaves (1980)
An Unsuitable Attachment (1982)
Crampton Hodnet (1985)
An Academic Question (1986)
Hi Tania, Thank you. I appreciate your
posting both the writing dates and
the publishing dates, these will be
very useful to us.
😊
Mod
Lady Mayfair wrote: "I just never truly stopped and realised we used to... gender discriminate the food rations in the restaurants?????? *."Yes!!! I am in agreement, May. I didn't realize there was gender discrimination in the restaurants or even society with giving the men more food so blatantly. Though, it's made me reflect on my own upbringing where my grandmother watched us a lot when my mom returned to the workforce (two parent working household) and she was a child of the depression. So she LOVED to feed us kids and wouldn't let us leave the table until our plates were clean. So therefore, I blame my extraordinarily robust eating habits on my grandmother (LOL) but my MIL is very conscious of how much a lady should eat. When there are four pieces of meat, she says the men need the bigger pieces than "us girls". I never made that connection about gender bias in food until our discussion now. I never grew up that way.
Tania wrote: "Bloody hippy parents! 😃.."I laughed at this! Mine were too. They met working at a vegan restaurant in the seventies. I was raised vegan/vegetarian until my mom went back to school/entered the workforce. Then my grandparents (who watched us) introduced us to things like sugar cereal, soda on holidays, and meat. Oh yes... and television! LOL
Ruth wrote: "Thinking of these married women, how many are stuck in a loveless marriage? ..."
Absolutely! If you stop and think about it, Pym wrote about a pivotal time period in women's history. During the war, so many women assumed men's roles both at home and in the workforce. Heck, in the U.S. they even played baseball. Now that the war is over and men are home to assume their place in the workforce, we have groups of women who either have worked like men or witnessed their counterparts doing it. Some still marry for security, familiarity with gender norms, and this equates to numerous loveless marriages. Then you have the Prudences who are trailblazers in the workforce yet still encounter discrimination in so many forms. The tea ritual where it has to be made on time for Gramps and it takes about three women to do it, is mind boggling to me. Once thing about this time period that always baffles me- is how many people there are in a workplace! Offices, shops, bakeries, etc. there seems to be so many workers! Now the thought is do as much as you can with as little as you can!
Ruth wrote: Charlotte Mary Yonge is on mychallenge and Victober list
Ruth, did you choose her just from your encounter here?
I've read a bit of Angel in the House by Coventry Patmore as I figured its poetry I can read bits and pieces here and there. I don't often go for poetry but I like it so far.
I also want to read at least one Yonge, the one I chose to start is Hopes and Fears; Or, Scenes from the Life of a Spinster, Volume II just because I love the title! :))
Ruth, I like what you say about the women resenting Prudence… I would say yes. She’s good looking, dresses well, lives in London… while they are probably all NOT. Although I’m sure it was frowned upon then being single… Jesse was labeled a spinster. What else did women do? They got married. Frumps is wonderful! I was excited to hear jumble a few times as well. 😊
May wrote: I love this book actually, it's so.... realistic.I absolutely agree! I think that's one of the reasons I like it so much. It's not really about much, but just a slice of life at the time. And while some of the characters seem a bit satirical, really I can see them in real life. I feel like I've met these people, or at least bits of them. I love how she gives us their insights, for instance when Prudence first goes to stay with Jane and she's sizing up the room. Or Jane knowing her own inadequacies, and feeling humbled by it.
Tania wrote: and thank you Brenda for that article you posted. Nice to be able to see where the characters pop up in the other novels. You're welcome! I was glad to have happened upon it because I felt a bit cheated at the end of Excellent Women and needed some closure. Although the closure was in this book.. "Miss Doggett received a letter from Mildred Lathbury...", but I absolutely missed that part.
I loved this book! I think I still like Excellent Women better, I do LOVE Mildred Lathbury, but I look forward to reading more Pym. Ruth, I think I can see in this book her Jane Austen influence. Jane does parallel Emma Woodehouse a lot. They're both a bit flighty, mean well and have married spouses that are quite opposite to them.
Pym's wit and satire are very similar as are her characterizations of people. As in they both seemed to be great students of people. I like that and I think I like getting to know characters and their almost mundane day to day better than something more action driven. I will definitely read this again at some point, but first will make my way through the rest of Pym's work.
Brenda wrote: " I feel like I've met these people, or at least bits of them...."Thank you for putting this feeling into words for me! I feel exactly the same. And yes, Prudence sizing up the room was quite funny 😅
I do feel for the daughter, Flora. She's definitely the housekeeper when she is at home. Most of the cooking, organising and cleaning fall on her on top of having to 'entertain' and it doesn't seem to bother anyone (least of all her mother who barely knows where the kitchen is) even though she goes to school at Oxford.
I feel bad, I think I glossed over Flora. Which proves your point May. The only time I really noticed her was when Prudence made the remark on if they were sleeping together and then Jane sizing them up for it. In fact I was actually surprised Flora brought a boy home with her to begin with. Although as I recall he seemed to have a lot of female friends didn’t he? So I wonder if that was odd, him going home with her? That seems rather serious and he seemed to flaunt his social circle of female friends. Unless it was an act? Bit of an ego trip? Sizing her up?
One of the things I think I will always remember from this book is Prudence’s red velvet dressing gown. I don’t know why. It just stuck with me.
Oh how interesting, Brenda!I noticed Flora from the very beginning, first when her mother blurted out she is looking forward to re-living her own Oxford days through her daughter (which already is a silent alarm in my mind) and when they had moved at the new vicarage when Flora was already in the kitchen cleaning and unpacking whilst Jane hadn't a clue even which direction the kitchen was! On top on it all, it's usually Flora pointing out they are supposed to have guests, as her mother constantly forgets, even though she invited them!
Ahh, I did love this novel. I just finished it and am already considering which one of Pym's to read next.
It was so pleasant being in Jane and Prudence's life, I think it is because these Ladies try to just be even though their society constantly tries to label them and put them in particular pots.
There is an expression in Serbian that goes along the lines of "Don't throw me in the same pot!" to express trying to separate from the common norms (do we have this in English?), but Jane and Prudence definitely have their own pots and everyone simply has to accept it.
Jane knows she is a tad ridiculous, accepts and embraces who she is and thus Prudence can't help but love her and neither can I. I love them both!
I must say, this was a bit of a stressful week for me, having Jane and Prudence to tag along has been a massive help, it was just so pleasant to just jump into their world, but this is a kudos to Pym, her writing agrees with me. It wasn't overly long, there weren't long rants about characters pasts that give no real insight to the novel and I do feel like I know these people rather well by now.
I love them as well. They are both so different, but so « real » for lack of a better word. And perhaps also because they are clearly on the fringe of their respective worlds. It makes me wonder if more people experience this feeling than not? I felt for me, even with rationing - as we did have a TP shortage a bit ago, you could plop them all in present day and it would still ring true. People are still pigeon holed, labeled and given lots of expectations. I liked that they just both ride the waves, embrace their faults and keep going on as if there was no other way.
Indeed, they do feel extraordinary real and you were SO right in saying that one knows bits of these people in real life and I would even add that I was bits of these people in real life as well, whether if it's making some innocent comment that might seem inappropriate to some to being lonely and heartbroken.The rationing did ring true for me as well, because I grew up with stories of mom and grandma waiting in line from 3AM to get milk and some sorry excuse for sausage during Communist times and empty shelves in stores to our own Covid situation with TP, pasta and eggs shortage and empty shelves in the local supermakets. It only made it more surreal to actually live through it!
Afternoon Tea and Scones with the Lovely Ladies
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