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Afternoon Tea and Scones with the Lovely Ladies discussion
This topic is about
Jane and Prudence
BuddyReads
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Sept 2020 buddyread: Jane and Prudence: Barbara Pym
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Brenda wrote: " May wrote: I love this book actually, it's so.... realistic.I absolutely agree! I think that's one of the reasons I like it so much. It's not really about much, but just a slice of life at the t..."
Brenda,
I just read that scene, simply described, yet so much
felt and unsaid.
Ruth wrote: I just read that scene, simply described, yet so much felt and unsaid.
I think that’s what I’m finding about Pym. I like the understated, that makes you think and wonder and imagine and discuss. I’m really drawn to these types of books lately.
May wrote : Indeed, they do feel extraordinary real and you were SO right in saying that one knows bits of these people in real life and I would even add that I was bits of these people in real life as well, whether if it's making some innocent comment that might seem inappropriate to some to being lonely and heartbroken.I’m quite certain we’ve all stuck our foot in it from time to time. And even tho Pym writes with satire and irony it still has truth without being over the top. I like that part of it. From the beginning, when we’re with the group, the overall theme is the labels and boxing people in, but underlying are the distinct nature and personalities of the ones that are sticking their foot in it or those on the receiving end. I wonder if Miss Birkinshaw has that moment after thinking «did that just come out of my mouth »? Or just society conditioned and doesn’t even realize what she says could have been hurtful?
The rationing did ring true for me as well, because I grew up with stories of mom and grandma waiting in line from 3AM to get milk and some sorry excuse for sausage during Communist times and empty shelves in stores to our own Covid situation with TP, pasta and eggs shortage and empty shelves in the local supermakets. It only made it more surreal to actually live through it!
My grandmother grew up in Poland until she moved to the US in 1942. She didn’t talk about her time much, but I always remember sending our old clothes to « the old country ». I’ve read a bit tho for some perspective. My grandparents on both sides knew lack. Since my parents generation on though, in the US we have the land of plenty for the most part. Until the great TP shortage of course. I agree it is surreal. It’s still hard to put in perspective, at least for me, living in my privileged bubble. So for me, I like how Pym adds these snippets of life, as they are almost an aside but it gives more depth to the characters, but was really eye opening for me on life then. Even tho it’s more character driven, I find I’ve really focused on that aspect of the book, perhaps as it was unexpected and something I never knew (that it lasted so long) and the contrast of life now.
Lady Mayfair wrote: "It was so pleasant being in Jane and Prudence's life, I think it is because these Ladies try to just be even though their society constantly tries to label them and put them in particular pots..."May, you have perfectly put into words reasons why I loved this novel too. Pym just has a way about her novels in which we do feel like we know these characters. She just seems like such a keen observer of people and plops them into these normal situations yet with a dose of humor and poignancy that we readily identify with. I think her books are layered and I like to sift through the layers to try to find the subtleties in what she is saying.
Brenda wrote: " My grandmother grew up in Poland until she moved to the US in 1942. She didn’t talk about her time much..."My Old Guard did not like to speak of it much either, I guess they didn't want to go back, not even in memory, this is to what extent they knew lack. But there were stories, especially when one would go to the pharmacy, Granny liked to admire the abundance of meds. And the different varieties of sausages in supermarkets, this was always something everyone liked to admire, simply because during Communism there was only the one kind: the crappy kind!
Primrose Jess wrote: "Lady Mayfair wrote: "It was so pleasant being in Jane and Prudence's life, I think it is because these Ladies try to just be even though their society constantly tries to label them and put them in..."I am looking forward to reading more of Pym and then delving in that article that was posted here about how the books are connected and which character appears in other books. I'm really into her writing, it's just so unpretentious, so honest! And from my perspective, this makes for a Good Book.
Ladies, can I prattle about something, related to the book a bit, because there's no one else I know who has read it and would understand!"You've got a new dressing gown", Jane said, trying to keep out of her tone the accusing note that women are apt to use on each other as if one had no business to spend one's own money on nice clothes.
Today, I had to go buy wedding shoes. There was a choice between two pairs, one priced double than the other. I was speaking to a female acquaintance about it and she quickly quipped that "You don't really need those more expensive shoes".
So there I was, going to Oxford Street in beautiful autumny London, thinking about what this person said, how they are right, I don't really need those more expensive ones, the other ones are 99.5% the same in colour and comfort. There're just a tad fancier, 0.5%, nothing, really!
But then a double-decker bus passed me and I got to thinking about Jane, smoking on the bus, going to see Prudence (I do love that little moment), lovely Prudence in her new red dressing gown, Prudence eating lunch at some random cafe while her boss was lunching at the club, Jane getting one egg at the restaurant, Prudence- defiantly eating the salmon!
I ate the salmon too. I bought the fancy shoes.
Thank you, Mrs. Pym.
Mod
May - you'll have to share pictures at some point!! :)))
Ok, here's a very honest question: if like some days before the wedding I freak out over my dress being ugly, which topic do I post pictures for everyone's honest opinion? (80% chance this will happen :D )
Hurray! Good for you, May.I'm so glad you got the shoes
your heart desired and the salmon.
It wasn't about need, it is about
occasion.
Your wedding requires something
special, on the day you slip into
your shoes, think of it as a wink
from Miss Pym.
We relate to her more than
we know.
I loved reading your post.
Lady Mayfair wrote: "Ok, here's a very honest question: if like some days before the wedding I freak out over my dress being ugly, which topic do I post pictures for everyone's honest opinion? (80% chance this will hap..."Goodness, May. 😄
For group polls, General Chat.
For private jitters, here.
What was the first reaction you
had when first saw your dress?
I was like "Oh s*** will it fit"?!" because I ordered the fittest size possible, as they didn't have my size in store and I was home alone when it arrived so I put it on, all good until I had to zip the back and it wouldn't go over the waistline even though clearly there was more than enough space so I spent the next 30 minutes walking around, swearing, trying to zip it, fail, look in the mirror and think 'it sure is pretty though', swear again, lie on the bed and try, fail, swearing and failing until I started sweating and decided to put it back in the bag until the man came home to zip me up 🙄 😂
Hi May,Yea!! You got your dress!!!
*Squealing with delight!*
So, you weren't too young to
try it on. 😉 You're a hoot! 😄
That was quite a work out
If you need to try it on again
sans person, slip a long ribbon
through the zipper tab and pull up,
It helps to reduce swearing.
Ruth, but is it not 'every little girl's dream' to try on the special white dress, after all? 😅Did you know that the white dress tradition was kickstarted by Queen Victoria? Before she got married, everyone was just wearing their Sunday best, which could include anything from red to brown. But Victoria wanted to stand out in the crowd, because she was so small, so they dressed her in all white. And no one every looked back since.
(I tried the ribbon! I had actually googled it lol so I tried the ribbon, a safety pin and the clothes hanger! 😂)
That’s interesting May, I never knew that about the white dress.Often when I see pictures of War Brides (after Queen Vic, yes) but with rationing and whatnot they often just wore their « Sunday best » and I’ve always loved that. There is a simplicity that I really adore.
So Queen Vic is the one that turned the ladies into Disney Princess whanabees?? 😁
Definitely! 😄She and Albert where the ones who popularised decorating for Christmas and the Christmas tree, a tradition they took from their German side.
They were young and glamorous and Victoria was definitely The Trend to follow!
I think I do remember reading that. That’s a trend I do like! There is a US Magazine « Victoria » which has lovely holiday issues. They would have recipes, articles and pictures from the era and then present day people’s homes decorated in the style.I love how they used pine garland as decoration. Their homes must have smelled wonderful with all that pine everywhere. Now I use reed diffusers next to my plastic tree. 🙄🙄🤷🏻♀️
When I die I wish I could create a bubble life where I could cherry pick aspects of different eras, as I wouldn’t want to live in Victorian times necessarily, but a Victorian Christmas would be splendid !
Primrose Jess wrote: "I agree Expectations does play quite a role in this novel. I was also struck by the emphasis on how men need to be taken care, especially needing some form of meat! But in all seriousness, it was intriguing to me to see how caring for the men in the novel plays such a pivotal part for the lives of the women...."I was so annoyed by how men had to get their meat and be taken care of! I guess I am and was raised by the wrong kind of woman to live in service to the male population...
Primrose Jess wrote: "That is one thing that always stands out to me in a Pym novel. The lovely descriptions of the food and drink- hot buttered toast, creamy Brie, etc. And when Prudence gets jilted she treats herself to such a lovely meal, splurging on smoked salmon! I was also struck how all the delicious food descriptions take place in between when Jane/Prudence lunch at the vegetarian restaurant having salads. I think food is important because of the rationing that took place so reading such descriptions bring about a sense of comfort and looking forward to good things?..."Jess-
I love that you pointed out the importance of food and the descriptions involved. I didn't see it until you said it! SO cozy.
I LOVE that Prudence treats herself when she needs it.
Primrose Jess wrote: "I have to mention it... because it made me laugh and marvel at Pym's humor... did anyone else find it funny when Mr. Driver brings his marrow for the Harvest Thanksgiving (or Festival if you are ..."TOO funny about the marveling over the magnificent marrow!
Primrose Jess wrote: "Then you have the Prudences who are trailblazers in the workforce yet still encounter discrimination in so many forms. ...."I love that you pointed out what a trailblazer Prudence is yet still discriminated against and thought of only in relation to her relationships and relationship status. Jane annoyed me - she was just SO dimwitted and cringe-worthy - so I focused on Prudence and how interesting she was as the kind of woman more traditional women are not yet comfortable with because they cannot typecast or pigeonhole them.
Lady Mayfair wrote: "I do feel for the daughter, Flora. She's definitely the housekeeper when she is at home. Most of the cooking, organising and cleaning fall on her on top of having to 'entertain' and it doesn't seem..."I was fascinated by Flora - she bridges the traditional womanly role with how much she takes care of the household since her mother is incapable, yet she is a college gal having boyfriends and getting an education. I really wonder how she turned out!
I am glad to have read my first Pym! But funnily, though many of you mention the realness of the characters and the subtlety, I honestly felt like these characters were caricatures. They were cartoonish in their faults - Jane is just such a dingbat I couldn't deal - she made me cringe, Fabian was a piece of sh*t of a man, Jane's authorish types at her literary society were laughable, the in-depth discussions with coworkers about tea making at Prudence's work, etc.I found myself thinking fondly of DE Stevenson and especially her Miss Buncle series. Those characters are more subtle and likeable and real to me.
Well, each to their own!
I am glad to have read Pym and fully expect to read more. Excellent Women is on my shelf for sure!
But I will pick up a Stevenson in the meantime...😉
Elke wrote: I was so annoyed by how men had to get their meat and be taken care of! I guess I am and was raised by the wrong kind of woman to live in service to the male population...The books was written almost 50 years ago, so I was trying to put this aspect of it into perspective.
People used to believe the world was flat, so men believing they are superior, etc., well... LOL
We know how all that ended up. ; )
Brenda wrote: " Elke wrote: I was so annoyed by how men had to get their meat and be taken care of! I guess I am and was raised by the wrong kind of woman to live in service to the male population...The books w..."
Brenda-
I LOVE that you equate the world being flat with men being superior. Such silly old fashioned and FALSE beliefs!
you made me actually laugh out loud for real 🤣🤣
Elke wrote: ": I was so annoyed by how men had to get their meat and be taken care of! I guess I am and was raised by the wrong kind of woman to live in service to the male population..."
I'm so with you on this. I was fuming at these scenes, Jane getting one egg whilst her husband got two, wow! Appalling, especially as it was another woman who served her!!!
so Jane admits to feeling like Emma Woodhouse in her match-making hobby. But why did Pym equate Prudence with Miss Bates - by giving her the exact name? Prudence even mentions not liking to be called Miss Bates.I am still in section 1 of Emma but will keep an eye on this. From the first description of Miss Bates, I don't see the connection yet...other than being single...
What a good point. I'd read Emma a few months ago and before I read Jane & Prudence. I did a quick internet search of Miss Bates character and I think like you, I don't see much of a correlation, but the "spinsterhood" and one mustn't make fun of it. They do rather insult Prudence because she is unmarried.Wikepdia says: Shabby genteel, and a compulsive talker, she is memorably insulted on one occasion by the book's heroine, to the latter's almost immediate remorse.
I do very much see the similarities between Jane and Emma. Maybe Prudence is the latter updated version of Emma's Miss Bates?
I look forward to what you find out from Emma.
Elke wrote: "TOO funny about the marveling over the magnificent marrow!..."I'm so immature... I'm still snickering over that scene.
Elke wrote: "Jane annoyed me - she was just SO dimwitted and cringe-worthy - so I focused on Prudence and how interesting she was as the kind of woman more traditional women are not yet comfortable with because they cannot typecast or pigeonhole them...."I think what made me more sympathetic towards Jane and Prudence (who is almost like her foil? What she could have had?) is that they have a distinct age difference too. Jane being her older teacher. So Jane might still be that last remnant of the culture of accepted womanhood pre-War? Though we see her academic mindedness in conflict with the idea of domesticity.... combined with her inability to relate to people in the capacity of vicar's wife; is just a recipe for disaster at times. I see Jane as that grey area character who had a career and gave it up because that was expected but Prudence is younger with more socially accepted freedoms?
Elke wrote: "I am glad to have read my first Pym! But funnily, though many of you mention the realness of the characters and the subtlety, I honestly felt like these characters were caricatures. They were carto..."I'm no expert. But I think the realness of Pym lies in those caricatures that she makes. I kind of equate it to the show 'The Office" when I watch it, I can see nuances of the characters in fellow coworkers. It's rather true to real life in that cynical, funny way. Whereas, Stevenson is more straightforward, humorous, comfort reading for me. Does that make sense? I find Pym funny for her dry, call it out (within reason) humor in her characters. I see her as a bystander telling her characters' stories. The good, the bad and the flawed. I think she's a bit too forgiving of men though. Pym likes men and most of her plots seem to form around a group of women doting around 1-3 men. From what I hear, Elizabeth Taylor is even more rawly honest in her characters than Pym.
Elke wrote: "so Jane admits to feeling like Emma Woodhouse in her match-making hobby. But why did Pym equate Prudence with Miss Bates - by giving her the exact name? Prudence even mentions not liking to be call..."I think this might be a good catch, Elke. Pym was well read on Austen and I've read that she was heavily influenced by Austen's writing style. I think what you've pointed out has to be significant.
Primrose Jess wrote: "Elke wrote: "TOO funny about the marveling over the magnificent marrow!..."I'm so immature... I'm still snickering over that scene."
It showed us SO much both about Fabian and the Ladies!
Primrose Jess wrote: "I see Jane as that grey area character who had a career and gave it up because that was expected but Prudence is younger with more socially accepted freedoms?..."Good point about the age difference and therefore generational difference. I kept forgetting Jane was older! Because she was basically helpless, maybe...
Anyhoo, I also wondered about Jane's career - she seems unable to deal with so much I wonder how real her career was? She didn't seem involved in the literary society and maybe was just a dabbler in poetry until the day she married?
Primrose Jess wrote: "I think she's a bit too forgiving of men though. Pym likes men and most of her plots seem to form around a group of women doting around 1-3 men. From what I hear, Elizabeth Taylor is even more rawly honest in her characters than Pym...."That may be what annoyed me. I am not forgiving of men.
Elizabeth Taylor might be more my speed! The writer, not the actress 🤦🏻♀️
Primrose Jess wrote: "Elke wrote: "so Jane admits to feeling like Emma Woodhouse in her match-making hobby. But why did Pym equate Prudence with Miss Bates - by giving her the exact name?...Jess wrote: Pym was well read on Austen and I've read that she was heavily influenced by Austen's writing style. I think what you've pointed out has to be significant...."
To be explored in our Emma thread! Miss Bates is kind of a pitiful character so I am going to keep an eye on her now with Prudence in mind...
Mod
I look forward to your thoughts on the Pym!Also, I looked for the cookbook, didn’t find it, but I did find What She Ate which does feature Pym among 5 other « remarkable » women. We’ll see how that goes.
I’m desperate to read some Elizabeth Taylor. I’ve got some short stories coming in some time. She’s come up repeatedly lately.
Mod
I’ve read the same thing. I’ve got You'll enjoy it when you get there coming in. I do have library access to a lot of her works tho, so I’m quite excited for that. The one you’ve mentioned as well. I’ve a list of her books going that were mentioned on the podcast.
Tania wrote: "Elizabeth Taylor certainly isn't forgiving of men, but she isn't towards women either really. Rawly honest is a good description. I was thinking of rereading this but An Unsuit..." </i>My first experience with her was [book:Mrs Palfrey at the Claremont and I quickly learned about that raw honesty. I adored the book but the ending left me gutted.
Mod
Elke wrote: "Primrose Jess wrote: "I think she's a bit too forgiving of men though. Pym likes men and most of her plots seem to form around a group of women doting around 1-3 men. From what I hear, Elizabeth Ta..."I read an article about Pym that said she loved men (I didn't get the impression in a promiscuous sense.). And it shows in her novels where the females tend to dote on the less deserving men. I think I tend to see it as more humorous and eye roll worthy than irritating. She writes what she observes- the good, the bad, the cringeworthy, and the marrows. LOL.
Tania wrote: "One of my favourite books, but yes, it puts you through the wringer emotionally"I've got several others of hers but haven't tried them yet... I wasn't ready for another wringer of emotions! I still think about Mrs. Palfrey often. It just sticks with you.
Hi Ladies,My apologies for not being as
forthcoming with my comments,
I have fallen behind on my reading.
Finally having finish the wonderful
novel, I had a great time with Miss
Pym's imaginary world.
She leaves some much unsaid, the
musing continue long after the novel
has ended.
I love Prudence's observations- she is
like a literary camera, capturing detail
that other character overlooked.
It's funny how Jane reacts to a potential
suitor for Prudence, the way a man does
with a third egg. One has to love the
unforgettable Bowler hat scene.
The tone at the beginning of the book-
the frumpy clergymen's wives and
scrutinizing Jane's appearance, she
didn't want to lose herself.
Although the two ladies were friends,
at times, I saw Prudence look upon
Jane with pity, because she was so
inept.
I like Prudence, she knows what wants
and doesn't have interest in what others
think of her.
Jane wants so much for Prudence to
meet a man and settle down, but
where one sees spinsterhood another
sees independence. If Prudence should
decide to marry, it will be in her terms,
not because it is expected.
Fabian is quite the peacock, isn't he?
The grieving widower using his status
for his benefit.
How did you like his concern over his
poor Prudence, licking her wounds?
I loved Jane's response. 👏
.......
More to come
Afternoon Tea and Scones with the Lovely Ladies
Books mentioned in this topic
Mrs Palfrey at the Claremont (other topics)You'll Enjoy It When You Get There: The Selected Stories of Elizabeth Taylor (other topics)
A Dedicated Man, And Other Stories (other topics)
What She Ate: Six Remarkable Women and the Food That Tells Their Stories (other topics)
An Unsuitable Attachment (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Elizabeth Taylor (other topics)Elizabeth Taylor (other topics)
El Blokehead (other topics)
Coventry Patmore (other topics)
Coventry Patmore (other topics)
More...
challenge and Victober list
Ruth, did you choose her just from your encounter here?
I've read a bit of Angel in the House by Co..."</i>
Hi Brenda,
No, I chose Miss Yonge's novel back in May,
it has been sitting my to read challenge list
ever since .
I have been looking into [book:Hopes and Fears; Or, Scenes from the Life of a Spinster, Volume I,
the novel is all but forgotten.
I am very much to know what you think of it.
The spinster topics we have covered with
Jane Austen, her work, Miss Pym's novel
and the upcoming Bronté Project, reading it
from Miss Yonge's perspective intrigues me.
Your liking Coventry Patmore
is encouraging, a new poet for my list, perhaps
winter read.