The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
Booker Prize for Fiction
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2020 Booker Shortlist Discussion
I’m so glad to see, though not surprised to see, that she was gracious. I love her. I think Lee Child was wrong, but he was the judge, not I, so what he feels was the better book is what makes the Shortlist and wins the award. I can pick the best book when I get funding for Wendy’s Favorite Book Prize. (Watch for my go-fund me page)
I continue to think literary prizes are a good thing, as we’ve said here before what matters the most is getting the books attention and even books that aren’t chosen to be in any list get attention for having been overlooked.
Is anyone else having problems updating their ranking? My changes won't take - says there was a problem updating your comment.
Yes! I actually changed mine last night - or thought I had - but it hasn't updated, and when I tried just now nothing happened.I may try editing this post once posted to see if a Goodreads edit issue.
And yes - when I edited post 162 again the change was not saved.
Okay, it sounds like it's a general problem then. From last night for me too - I tried to add The New Wilderness to the (bottom of my) list.
Mod
This may be the shortest article ever written about the Booker Prize but it's a good one: (I probably need to say, "in my opinion")https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...
I read that too and completely agree. It is all subjective. The mythical best book ever for each individual has probably been discarded by editors who just didn’t like it.
Two more days to read and discuss the shortlistPrize announcement has been moved back to 19th November because it clashes with Obama's new book (news to me he even has a book coming out):
“We thought it unfortunate that two of the most exciting literary events of the year—the announcement of the winner of the 2020 Booker Prize and the publication of Barack Obama’s memoirs—were due to fall on the same day, so we’ve decided to give readers a couple of days' breathing space.
“Our unprecedented ceremony without walls, devised in collaboration with the BBC, will take place across multiple platforms on 19th November instead. Details about how to watch and take part will be announced shortly."
That doesn’t make sense to me. Wouldn’t most people who care to read the Longlist and shortlist have already read each book at least once and possible twice by the 17th and even if they get President Obama’s book the day it is released they can still take a moment to hear that Shuggie Bain won the Booker before getting back to reading Obama, and why do they think the entire English speaking world will be so obsessed with an American president’s book that they can’t tear themselves away to hear the Booker winner announced?
I agree entirely.But it makes a bit more sense now - not one but two big memoirs out that day. Obama is quite big news, but the same day sees Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics released.
Just finished How much of These Hills(throughly unimpressed) I am going to read the shortlist in October. I have all the books bar This Mournable Body but should be here soon. A group of my friends are reading the shortlist and it seems Shuggie Bain and Burnt Sugar are the firm favourites so far.
Dolly Parton book coming out makes sense.
Colourful (with a definite u!) take on the shortlist from the Scotsman's book columnist: ttps://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columni...(quotes below are not endorsements - but some interesting points)
Has Shadow King as their winner over Shuggie Bain and This Mournable Body, with all three worthy winners
Given some conversations elsewhere/on this thread:
- not a fan of the UK Shuggie cover "reminiscent of the forlorn Scottish section in Glasgow Airport’s WH Smith, stocked with miserable, outdated gangland pulp"
- a tongue-in-cheek, take on the American dominance "American spelling lurked in at least three books not translated into British English for their UK editions (the first giveaway often the word ‘color’.) Tut tut"
- but linking that to the Obama-induced postponement "Nobody in the book industry likes a clash ... but the move signifies how the American literary landscape is shaping this British book prize’s direction"
Interesting that the NY Times article that she references also expresses concerns from the National Book Foundation in the US about the focus on the Booker:
“With them coming as close as they are to us, of course we’re concerned, we’re worried for our authors,” Lisa Lucas, the executive director of the National Book Foundation, which administers the National Book Awards, said in an interview. “It’s difficult to have a prize like the Booker, which didn’t need to participate in the American landscape in the years before their change, but now you have American books dominating the Booker list. They are now having to function on some level alongside our prizes.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/bo...
US residents have been on the Booker lists forever. It is misleading for journalists to imply that all of them are only eligible under the new rules.
Yes, the quote from the National Book Foundation director does link it to the new rules, but more to the Booker Prize marketing itself in the US more. Not sure how true that is - i.e. if there really was a shift in marketing / brand building at the time of the rule change.Interesting that the National Book Foundation were very unhappy with the Nov 17th date - theirs was locked in for Nov 18th before the Booker announced theirs:
"Thank you Obama for doing what my pleading emails could not."
https://twitter.com/likaluca/status/1...
Paul wrote: "Yes, the quote from the National Book Foundation director does link it to the new rules"I thought moreso the one in the Scotsman - mentioning how many reside in the US.
The Scotsman one seemed a little tongue in cheek - I think - such as the lack of translation into British (which actually technically would disqualify the book from the Booker and move it to the International Booker!)
Paul wrote: "Yes, the quote from the National Book Foundation director does link it to the new rules, but more to the Booker Prize marketing itself in the US more. Not sure how true that is - i.e. if there real..."The Booker wallahs could have won the date war simply by preponing the event by a day! 16th Nov.
In film world doesn't the Oscars achieve prominence by going last not first i.e. the BAFTAs, Golden Globes etc are all then billed as pointers to the big one, the Oscars.
The UK Books Are My Bag Readers Prize shortlists are out - shortlists chosen by bookshops and winner by a public vote. The breakthrough author category has 2 out of 4 nominees from the Booker, reflecting the strong debutant performance - Douglas Stuart and Kiley Reid up against Brit Bennett (The Vanishing Half) and a non-fiction writer Jean Menzies.
The Vanishing Half is on the novel shortlist but the two Booker books aren't - instead I was delighted to see Kim Jiyoung, Born 1982, although having included a translated novel they have unfortunately failed to #namethetranslator
The novel shortlist also includes Jenny Offill's Weather and Boy Parts by Eliza Clark. The latter was the one where the author succesfully encouraged all her Twitter followers to spam the Not The Booker with nominations (when only one was required) but then seemed to lose interest when it came to the actual votes for shortlist (partly I think as the Guardian did a very positive review of her book anyway). The author is perhaps also well known for her Twitter account Goodreads, Bizarre reviews.
My main aim in life is to be featured on Goodreads, Bizarre reviews. My favourite is the review of Little Women that reads:
"there are no actual little women in this book. all regular sized women. title is misleading. 0/10"
Having finally completed the shortlist I'm reasonably impressed - Shadow King (my favourite), Shuggie Bain and This Mournable Body would all be strong winners, and I personally liked This Burnt Sugar as well - all 4 deserve to be on the shortlist. And Real Life was a decent longlist choice.If Apeirogon and Love and Other Experiments had made it, it would have been perfect.
Now watch them pick New Wilderness to win!
I’ll start Dangarembga trilogy early Nov. That’s my plan anyway, but I agree Shadow King, Shuggie Bain, and Burnt Sugar were Shortlist worthy.
Paul wrote: "Having finally completed the shortlist I'm reasonably impressed - Shadow King (my favourite), Shuggie Bain and This Mournable Body would all be strong winners, and I personally liked This Burnt Sug..."Noooo! Please don’t say that! Any of them but New Wilderness!
Interview with chair of judges on the Five Books website - not surprisingly she picks 6 books to talk about!https://fivebooks.com/best-books/the-...
Re Mantel: I've been reading these and wanting to take the time to comment, so I will do so now...Her other comments from 2008 are great as well - rather than dish the dirt, as she was invited, she criticised the focus on dirt:
Not a discourteous word was exchanged between the hard..."
As we say in B-more, "What a classy one she is!" And, as Anto noted, so consistent. I get the feeling from some of the more established women writers in particular (I've not done any sort of comparison - it just happens that I've read more articles by women lately) that the writing - and people reading/appreciating their writing -- is enough for them. Sure, prizes are great, but there's a feeling of not needing to prove oneself pouring forth from some of these great ladies, and it's lovely to behold. It's always a tad uncomfortable when someone gripes about not winning a prize. Even though I don't have anything to do with any of it, I feel uncomfortable when that happens. So I like it when the opposite occurs.
News of various events:https://thebookerprizes.com/news/2020...
From Monday 26 October, The Booker Prize will showcase two books each week. On Mondays and Thursdays (7.15pm), BBC Radio 4’s Front Row will air its Booker Book Groups, which give readers the chance to ask questions of each shortlisted author. Meanwhile, on Tuesdays and Thursdays (5pm), The Booker Prize will livestream, on its Facebook and YouTube channels, exclusive author conversations and readings as well as interviews with some familiar faces, who will reveal which book they are particularly enjoying.
On Wednesday 11 November (7pm, £5), Guardian Live will host the six shortlisted authors together for the first time in a livestreamed discussion chaired by writer and critic Alex Clark.
On Friday 13 November (7pm, free), Doncaster Creates, the prize’s regional partner for 2020, will bring together the six authors with Sheffield-born poet and former Man Booker International judge, Helen Mort. Doncaster Creates is a dynamic arts programme set up to celebrate the town’s creativity and unsung narratives of ‘grit and grandeur’.
Over three consecutive nights on Monday 16, Tuesday 17 and Wednesday 18 November (7.30pm, free), The Booker Prize and Waterstones and are teaming up to host Instagram Live conversations, featuring interviews with two shortlisted authors every evening.
Also in the run-up to the winner announcement, BBC Two and BBC World News will broadcast a special 30-minute Booker Prize programme. Novelist and activist Kit de Waal will follow the progress of the prize and examine the wider landscape of the publishing industry in the wake of the unprecedented global events of 2020. She’ll profile the six shortlisted authors and discover the novels in contention for the prize, as well as speaking to members of this year’s judging panel. She’ll also talk to Bernardine Evaristo, winner of last year’s prize and the first black woman to win since The Booker’s inception in 1969, to explore not only the life-changing effect of winning the Booker, but also the issue of diversity in publishing highlighted by this year’s Black Lives Matter movement. And she’ll investigate how the pandemic has affected both the book trade, and the books that we’re reading.
The shortlist activity will culminate on Thursday 19 November in an innovative globally accessible awards ceremony without walls, bringing together three of the UK’s leading cultural brands: The Booker Prize, the BBC and The Old Vic.
Broadcast from London’s Roundhouse, it will a be world-class audio experience on BBC Radio 4’s Front Row (7.15-8pm) and visual experience livestreamed on BBC iPlayer and the BBC Arts Live Page (both 7-8pm), which can be accessed by listeners and viewers across the world. It will be hosted by Radio 4’s John Wilson and feature a line-up of special guests, including last year’s winners Bernardine Evaristo and Margaret Atwood, and members of the Chineke! Orchestra.
For the first time, The Booker Prize and BBC are partnering with The Old Vic to bring the shortlisted books to life through a series of performances directed by The Old Vic Baylis Director Katy Rudd. The six readings, performed and filmed on The Old Vic stage by celebrated actors, will form an integral part of the ceremony.
This year’s Chair of Judges Margaret Busby will announce the winner of The 2020 Booker Prize, who will hear the news live and deliver an acceptance speech on screen. The winner will give their first television interview to BBC arts editor Will Gompertz for BBC News.
There will be additional rolling content on the BBC Arts Live Page during the afternoon and evening of 19 November as the buzz builds for the winner announcement, as well as coverage on BBC World News.
Following the announcement, Southbank Centre will host the first digital event with the winner on Monday 23 November (7.30pm, £5) as part of its 'Inside Out' series. The interviewer will be Bernardine Evaristo.
As part of The Booker Prize’s continuing partnership with Doncaster Creates, there will be a virtual Open Mic night on Thursday 26 November hosted by 2020 Booker judge, writer and broadcaster Lemn Sissay MBE, and Man Booker-shortlisted author Fiona Mozley, who will read passages from their work side-by-side with Doncaster writers.
Everything Paul just informed us of, all happening on BBC, is why I wish I lived in England. The US does not appreciate the arts like this. Our Public Broadcasting System (PBS) (a running target of the Republicans as a waste of taxpayer dollars) is the only place we find the best in arts as entertainment. That’s not to say there aren’t many Americans who appreciate and fund the arts, obviously there is, but here classical music, theater, literature, art, even college education is considered elitist and has negative connotations.
I was fortunate to have parents that took my brother and I to symphonies, art museums, plays, and had the literary classics in our home, otherwise there would have been no exposure.
Do I have a Shanghri-la image of the UK? Maybe there’s no more appreciation for culture there than there is here.
Rather than just focusing on the UK I would say in Europe one is more exposed to culture. In Vienna you get a small orchestra playing classical music in parks, In Barcelona you have Gaudí architecture dominating the streets, Amsterdam promotes Rembrandt openly. In Malta we have Medina (an Arab city) and Valletta (a city built by the Knights of St.John etc etc
Actually, I was thinking that as I hit Post, Robert.
Paul wrote: "From Monday 26 October, The Booker Prize will showcase two books each week. On Mondays and Thursdays (7.15pm), BBC Radio 4’s Front Row will air its Booker Book Groups, which give readers the chance to ask questions of each shortlisted author. "I hope to be appearing on one of these (like last year with Salman Rushdie) and that w/c 25th October will be a double book prize week for me
WndyJW wrote: "Everything Paul just informed us of, all happening on BBC, is why I wish I lived in England. The US does not appreciate the arts like this. Our Public Broadcasting System (PBS) (a running target of..."Naha. That is such a wrong statement.
I am Portuguese who lives in Switzerland (Zurich), but lived in LA from 2013-2019 and let me tell you, I was soo amazed by all the exposure to the arts and culture. Big authors would come to our little neighborhood bookshop (Skylight Books <3). So much art and exhibits, music even classical, theater.
The problem is more the density. European cities are just more dense and so are countries in Europe, so it can appear that the US lacks culture programms. But that is not the fact.
I would even go a step further and say its more eciting in the US. Whereas Europe tends to have a romantic view towards culture and see it as something belonging to the past, the US is really involved in creating today! I can only appreaciate the many American people working and creating in the states. Here artists are very much supported by the state. US artists create within suffering.
(And I am an architect and very much involved in the arts culture.)
I think Europeans like to romanticize America and Americans like to romanticize Europe.That said, population density is good for culture. But high rent isn't.
Cristiano is right about LA and the same is true of NYC, Chicago, Cleveland and New England, but the whole center of the country-the Midwest and the south is Big Bang Theory, Real Housewives of Somewhere as entertainment.
It’s probably like that in every country-cultural opportunities in bigger cities and not much in suburban and rural areas and and I’m just whining because we don’t have the equivalent of BBC radio.
We know that judges often like to make their choices look topical (or to put it a different way are naturally influenced by background events in their shortlist readings). Do with less than two weeks to go how if at all do we think recent events including this momentous week will influence their choice?
I still wonder if they will want to stand up for free speech and honour Tsitsi Dangarembga- a book which I think also sits very squarely in the type of book I think their shortlist indicated as a preference.
I caught the end of the readings - part of the Q&A. Seemed a good discussion and a very nice group of authors. GY - was one of the questions yours?
I don’t know as I could not listen. I submitted a question about the importance of titles - given Burnt Sugar was retitled and Shuggie Bain could have been Agnes Bain. Did anyone listen and was it asked?
There was a question on title but I didn't catch the question and only heard the last 4 answers which were from the other 4 authors, so suspect it was yours.
On the BBC website today there's a series of photos taken in Shuggie-era Glasgow in all its dreich and windy glory. Nice story to go along with them, the photographer was French and could hardly understand anything that anyone said, but really took to the people.https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-...
The winner ceremony next week is star-studded:President Obama (*), HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and Nobel winner Kazuo Ishiguro
https://thebookerprizes.com/booker-pr...
(* explains postponing it to avoid the book clash!)
Will be freely viewable worldwide apparently as well
Huh, wonder why they didn’t have the current US president?
That must be it. Physical fitness is only a little more important to that guy than literature.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Kim Jiyoung, Born 1982 (other topics)Dolly Parton Songteller: My Life in Lyrics (other topics)
Real Life (other topics)
The New Wilderness (other topics)
This Mournable Body (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Brandon Taylor (other topics)Diane Cook (other topics)
Tsitsi Dangarembga (other topics)
Avni Doshi (other topics)
Maaza Mengiste (other topics)
More...
Her other comments from 2008 are great as well - rather than dish the dirt, as she was invited, she criticised the focus on dirt:
Not a discourteous word was exchanged between the hardworking 1990 judges - much to the disappointment of the administrator Martyn Goff, who praised us to our faces and later whined that we were boring.
Although she did say (which her pride on since winning two Bookers and her disappointment this year would suggest she hasn't totally taken on board):
I’m glad I was a Booker judge relatively early in my career. It stopped me thinking that literary prizes are about literary value. Even the most correct jury goes in for horsetrading and gamesmanship, and what emerges is a compromise.