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The Black Moth Group Read Sept 2020 Spoiler thread
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Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂
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Sep 14, 2020 03:57AM
This is the thread for open spoilers and final conclusions.
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Sorry I started this early and so I am going to the Spoiler thread first and then I’ll probably respond to the discussions in the other threads later. This is my review which I posted on Goodreads just now:- I have been an aficionado of Georgette Heyer since I was 11 and read 'The Devil's Cub' (swiftly followed by 'These Old Shades') and just fell in love.
I must admit it is her Regency and Georgian stories that I so adore. IMHO, her detective fiction is not a patch on other Golden Age writers and she lacks the real historian's touch with her mediaeval stories.
Her contemporaries were read once and never touched again! She made the right decision to remove them.
But in the genre that she made her own -, no one has ever equalled Heyer in terms of her clever plotting, her articulate and intricate prose, her deftness with descriptions, her fabulous character development, and last, but not least, her fabulous wit and sense of the absurd.
She wrote The Black Moth when she was 17 and it is an amazing achievement. It is however far from perfect and quite frankly, her re-imagining of the characters in These Old Shades blows this one out of the water. It is nonetheless a great read and a perfect starting point to see how amazingly talented she was at just 17.
It's a little slow to start. The hero is a touch too perfect - sacrificing himself for his cheating brother; and the heroine is nowhere near as engaging as others that Heyer subsequently wrote.
However, her gift with interesting, attractive alpha males is quite clearly delineated in this her first opus. Belmanoir is just riveting from his first appearance until the very end. It really is his book.
It's interesting to observe the first incarnations of characters who become so beloved in TOS. I liked them but they are definitely the 'old shades' for me. A fabulous read nonetheless.
Great post Susan. I can't remember if we have discussed this before, but I think the first time GH reworked a character was that (view spoiler)
I'm going to ask Abigail here - who was the third kittenish woman? Lavinia, Molly &...?Because I don't think Mrs Fanshawe was kittenish - very straightforward in her speaking style - & I don't think Diana was. She fought Jack as hard as she could for their happiness & she was strategic fighting Tracy off. & that bitchy line about how he was old enough to be her father! Loved that.
Diana the third, though at least she has the excuse of youth. All that deploying of the dimple . . .
Abigail wrote: "Diana the third, though at least she has the excuse of youth. All that deploying of the dimple . . ."The dimple is a natural feature though. Same as if she smiled.
wonderful review, Susan in Perthshire, and I would agree Belmanor is the main character. People dislike Lavinia - rightfully so! - but I have just reached chapter 9 where we meet Lady O'Hara and I am curious to see if I've changed my opinion: I seem to recall not liking her as much as I'm supposed to. Too much pouting, I think.
Jackie wrote: "wonderful review, Susan in Perthshire, and I would agree Belmanoir is the main character. People dislike Lavinia - rightfully so! - but I have just reached chapter 9 where we meet Lady O'Hara and ..."
I like Molly & she means well (unlike Lavinia) She is very flirtatious, but that seems to be the age she lives in.
I read a review recently that thought this book has too many characters. While I don't agree with that I do think Bob is unnecessary - other than he bridges the huge age gap between Tracy (view spoiler) & the other siblings. & he is so similar in character to Tracy I have a hard time understanding why Lavinia is fond of Tracy but dislikes Bob.
Introducing Lovelace to the plot could have been handled another way.
Moving Elliot's post from the first thread to the spoiler thread.Jackie wrote: "I like how Diana [spoilers removed] thus lightening up all the drama."
Yeah, I like that too, it's just such a deflation of that whole "code of honor" mentality, and the masculine concept of "honor", and what "honor" consisted of (as opposed to "decency" or "virtue").
For example, after Gentleman John has held off Belmanoir, foiled his plans, threatened to kill him, forsooth, if he doesn't lay off trying to abduct/rape Diana - THEN he balks at telling Diana who Belmanoir really is? I think there's a feeble attempt at justifying it by saying he's afraid her father might decide to seek some sort of restitution from the Duke and come to grief over it, but still - a). it smacks a bit much of the "bros before ho's" mentality to me, and b). it doesn't seem to occur to him that Diana might be entitled to this information, or that indeed it might actually *help* her avoid Belmanoir in the future.
And then Jack says to Miles O'Hara something like, "well, except for this thing he's got about seducing and discarding women, he's not actually that bad a guy" - an attitude which Miles - good for Miles! - shoots down immediately.
Has it become clear by now that I'm not really a fan of Jack Carstares? Altho' I am rather smitten with his mare Jenny, I must confess...and if she's that devoted to him, I guess he must have some redeeming qualities. : )
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Moving Elliot's post from the first thread to the spoiler thread.Jackie wrote: "I like how Diana [spoilers removed] thus lightening up all the drama."
Yeah, I like that too, it's just such a def..."
Yes, that comment of Jack’s about the Duke not being too bad except for how he treats women is very off-putting, especially given the scene he’s just witnessed. What did he suppose the Duke was going to do with Diana... drink tea?
I suppose, in that era, even if that was all the Duke did and then sent her back home, it would be enough to ruin her prospects.
yes, for sure it makes me like Miles better than Jack (Lord John) because "he's not so bad except for rape" really stinks up the chapter. the weird thing is? I don't think it bothered me the first time I read this book, probably back in my 20s. maybe 40 years ago!
Jackie wrote: "yes, for sure it makes me like Miles better than Jack (Lord John) because "he's not so bad except for rape" really stinks up the chapter. the weird thing is? I don't think it bothered me the first ..."It’s such a weird sentiment, it seems so out of place when in other respects we’re supposed to laud Jack for his actions!
Julie wrote: "It’s such a weird sentiment, it seems so out of place when in other respects we’re supposed to laud Jack for his actions!"As I said elsewhere, Jack holds people up at gunpoint, first of all as a living, then for amusement. I don't look to armed robbers for moral guidance, nor do I laud them.
Indeed, not something to admire. But what I referred to was how Heyer intended Jack to be seen: as someone who would nobly take the blame for his brother’s actions, and then as Diana’s daring rescuer. But perhaps such inconsistencies in characterisation were due to her youth at the time of writing.
I think internalized misogyny may be in play here. From our present state of gender relations, it's easy to forget how recently the practice of men preying on women they desired was taken for granted. Within my lifetime it was theoretically deplored but accepted as the natural way of things. As a very young woman, Heyer probably accepted the norms of her own society without conscious question, and her characters are reflecting that. It's not accidental that Diana's father is portrayed as a negligent parent, inadequately guarding his daughter.Rest in power, RBG.
Abigail wrote: "Rest in power, RBG...."
Mountain-mover, her legacy will live on
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Sorry - RBG? I’m lost."I used to be on a couple of American based web sites, so I know who she was. Ruth Bader Ginsberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Ba...
Sorry, Susan, it's a US thing. Let me explain. RBG stands for Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a Supreme Court justice who passed away yesterday. I gave a little bow to her because this thread was reflecting on some of the sexist assumptions in The Black Moth, specifically Jack's ability to separate Belmanoir's attempted abduction from the rest of his character, saying that he wasn't such a bad person despite his predatory behavior. Many of us were seeing that passage in the book as distasteful, arguably because we were seeing it through a contemporary lens, reflecting a sea change in societal attitudes that has taken place over the past fifty years. For many American women, RBG was responsible for a good portion of that change: both as an attorney and as a judge, she defined the rationale for equal rights for women, and the changes in the law led to major changes in attitudes.
She sounds like a wonderful woman.I was thinking about this last night that Miles O'Hara is a character more in line with modern feelings. I don't think hw will ever totally forgive Richard & he says he has no use for Tracy.
Good point about Miles! He and his wife both seem modern, in their relationship with each other and with people from different levels of society. That little slapstick moment, for instance, where Molly and Jim are both so anxious about Miles and Jack that they crash into each other trying to open the door when they hear a carriage approaching the house. She doesn't treat Jim at all like a manservant. (Whereas Jack acts much more like the grand seigneur toward Jim, despite his affection for him.)
Which does make you wonder how Jack & Miles became friends in the first place? Is this mentioned?
I don't recall any mention of how they became friends--maybe at University? Miles is a curious case to me--why was he Irish? And not even Anglo-Irish, but really Irish. Just so that Heyer could write that appallingly stereotyped manner of speech for comic relief? He can't have been Catholic because he wouldn't have been a JP, and he seems widely accepted by society despite the speech patterns and the odd classlessness.
Also Miles is obviously well known & liked when he visits London.
you can't be a JP if you are Catholic? I supposed I should have known that, but it never occurred to me.
You couldn't hold any public office until the reform laws were passed--in the 1830s, I think?
Aside from the point where I had surfeit of Richard and Lavinia, I really enjoyed this book. The drama seems like it should be over-the-top but manages to somehow stay just short of melodrama.I love the humor best, though.
Just when Jack, at least, had been dueling to the death suddenly the geneal tone turns to insouciance.
Diana seems mighty calm, but that's a good trait in a Countess, I expect.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Moving Elliot's post from the first thread to the spoiler thread.Jackie wrote: "I like how Diana [spoilers removed] thus lightening up all the drama."
Yeah, I like that too, it's just such a def..."
Yes Carol I was very disappointed with this comment by Jack. I liked him up to that point except for his obsession with clothes!! He came across as a right dandy and a ponce, the kind of guy I can't stand!
This book is totally over the top and far fetched but put all that aside and it's quite a good read. Also I think I must have read TOS at some point, as I've read them all but I remember very little about it. I probably didn't like it. Never realised it was a reworking of The Black Moth so I'll be interested in our group read of it now.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Which does make you wonder how Jack & Miles became friends in the first place? Is this mentioned?"Molly reminds Jack of the months and months Miles spent at Wyncham when they were boys, so they may have met at school, or Thurze House (not sure yet how far from Wyncham it is) may have been inherited by Miles, which would explain why he's so Irish and English both (having spent time in both countries).
Abigail wrote: "Sorry, Susan, it's a US thing. Let me explain. RBG stands for Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a Supreme Court justice who passed away yesterday. I gave a little bow to her because this thread was reflecting o..."Abigail thanks for that - once you told me, I did of course *smacks head in disgust* immediately know who you were referencing and why.
She was an amazing woman and the thought that Trump is going to just fill her post with some right wing misogynist appals me and I'm. not even an American!
I would add that whilst I accept your perspective - I also think the fact that GH was only 17 when she wrote this is a key factor. I was 12 when I read this (immediately after TOS), and I truly had no idea what rape really meant since I was not only sexually inactive but a naive pupil at an all girls school. I think the whole 'rape' threat went straight over my head.
I think I was a few years older before I appreciated how awful rape would be for any woman who suffered it. .
Teresa wrote: "This book is totally over the top and far fetched but put all that aside and it's quite a good read. Also I think I must have read TOS at some point, as I've read them all but I remember very litt..."
Oh Teresa, I am so looking forward to reading your thought on TOS which was my 2nd Heyer: read when I was 12 and which has remained in my top 5 ever since!
For me, TBM is an amazing achievement for the 17 year old Heyer but is not one I re-read. This is the first time for decades - in fact I think it is only my second read ever!!
Mod
Yes, far-fetched and melodramatic, with very awkward ethical considerations, but still an exciting story and very funny in places.
Did anybody else recognise the first appearance of the 'worthy but dull' suitor? The devoted manservant is also another regular, though in later books he's a bit brighter than Jim and his employer treats him with less condescension.
Good points, Jenny!The worthy suitor in this one seemed to owe a good deal to Mr. Collins in Pride and Prejudice.
Abigail wrote: "Good points, Jenny!The worthy suitor in this one seemed to owe a good deal to Mr. Collins in Pride and Prejudice."
Yes! We don't see his obsequiousness, yet, but then we also don't see Lady Catherine de Bourgh for him to practice on. I'm sure she's in the wings...
I felt like the comedy of the later books isn't as apparent here. There's a moment now and again but not as much as we're used too. I couldn't stand Tracy! He's so full of himself and seems to think he has a God given right to do anything he wants. The only thing he does that I like is put Lavinia in her place and even then that's for his own benefit.
The wit in this book is more in the situations and less in the words; I think that's why it doesn't seem so comedic.
I didn't really see any comedic situations Karlyne. I must have missed all that.
Well, the final melodramatic duel scene degenerated into farce, and I think some of the Miles and Molly scenes were mildly amusing. But Heyer had definitely not found her comedic feet.
Yes, the comedy was still being developed here and I think she hadn’t quite hit her stride. But I think it’s fascinating to see the character types that she established in this novel and who would reappear in various guises in the future. For example, the vacuous and self centred female would reappear in numerous books (always as a secondary female character) throughout her career.
Male friendship is a feature of many of her books and it is introduced here with real insight. GH clearly understood certain aspects of male behaviour - presumably thanks to her relationship with her father and brothers at this stage.
very good points, Susan. Teresa wrote: "I didn't really see any comedic situations Karlyne. I must have missed all that."
oh, I did - like Jack holding up Miles when they both had unloaded guns!
and the dinner party where 2 attendees had just been trying to kill each other - I found that silly/amusing.
while I'd agree Heyer hadn't reached her peak it was pretty darned good for a first novel, even aside from her age.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Yes, the comedy was still being developed here and I think she hadn’t quite hit her stride. But I think it’s fascinating to see the character types that she established in this novel and who woul..."
I think we've talked about (somewhere) the fact that there were so few real female friendships in Heyer's works. I wonder if they were simply not important to her? I'm trying to remember from her biography if she had many herself, and it seems as though she didn't? Anybody else remember?
Karlyne - In Jennifer’s bio - she describes a couple including another writer. I cannot remember their names but I got the impression they were close and long-term.
I remember that, too, Susan, because I was thinking that it may have been, at least in part, that both the husband and wife were compatible. I may have to do some flipping through the bio.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Karlyne - In Jennifer’s bio - she describes a couple including another writer. I cannot remember their names but I got the impression they were close and long-term."Her friends were Carola Oman & Joanna Cannan They were both older than her, & when they were young they critiqued each other's work. Carola was a life long friend, the friendship with Joanna faded over time.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Karlyne - In Jennifer’s bio - she describes a couple including another writer. I cannot remember their names but I got the impression they were close and long-term."He..."
Carol, do you remember how old she was when they became friends? I've read too many biographies (which I rarely read) lately, and I'm getting them all confused!
I get where she's coming from with the male relationships. I grew up with three brothers and I was the eldest. When young, it was join in or spend days on my own. I grew up knowing more about soccer and darts and guys pastimes than anything else. I don't really feel as comfortable with women's talk. Maybe it was something like that with Heyer.
Karlyne wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Karlyne - In Jennifer’s bio - she describes a couple including another writer. I cannot remember their names but I got the impression they..."I'll look it up next Tuesday. (might give it its own thread)
It was in the Kloester bio, but I think there may be something about Carola in the Fahnestock-Thomas book as well.
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Carola Oman (other topics)Joanna Cannan (other topics)
