Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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The Black Moth Group Read Sept 2020 Spoiler thread
I thought the description of her when he met her in Bath was pretty powerful, evoking a strong physical attraction. As for love, that’s more questionable. Hard to imagine him really loving anyone but himself, as his one friend implies.
I’m going to reread that passage, thanks, Abigail. :)
I couldn't stand Tracy. So smug and so certain in his own self worth. Was great to see him taken down a peg because he definitely was! It was surely a slap in the face when he realised Diana loved Jack.
I've finally finished!!! It seems to have taken me forever, this time. I don't know if that's to do with my mood at the moment or the story. I found myself putting it aside with no hurry to pick it up when the story focused on Richard and Lavinia alone. Lord they were annoying.
Teresa, I had the same problem with Richard and Lavinia--to the point where I just skimmed the sections that featured them. Bah! what an annoying pair--they deserved each other.
They deserved each other Barb!!! A perfect pair!
Teresa wrote: "They deserved each other Barb!!! A perfect pair!"Barb in Maryland wrote: "Teresa, I had the same problem with Richard and Lavinia--to the point where I just skimmed the sections that featured them. Bah! what an annoying pair--they deserved each other."
Another thing that shows Richard as a weak villain. He doesn't tell Lavinia until after they are married that he was the card cheat who has also cheated his brother out of his inheritance.
Not to mention that he breaks his mother's heart and jack never sees his mother again before he dies.
They do indeed deserve each other.
I so agree - Richard and Lavinia were such awful, unsympathetic characters. The effects of Richard’s actions were so monumental and I could not understand how Jack could be so forgiving. In many ways, I found Richard far worse than Tracy. I like to think that the latter would never have done any harm to Diana whereas Richard harmed his brother and continued it for years.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I so agree - Richard and Lavinia were such awful, unsympathetic characters. The effects of Richard’s actions were so monumental and I could not understand how Jack could be so forgiving. In many wa..."Richard’s agonies of conscience became faintly ridiculous, until he finally decided to act upon them.
But I think Heyer left us in no doubt as to Tracy’s intent. That draping of his fingers on Diana’s shoulders, such a simple action but very sinister. Then, there were his thoughts earlier during the abduction, in Chapter 25. He refers to others who had ‘sobbed and implored, railed and raved.’ Am I misreading this, or is he a repeat offender?
Julie, I suspect (sadly) you are correct!
Mod
It looks like it - Jack tells Diana's father, when he asks if Tracy will marry Diana, "As he married all the others" and again, he knows where Tracy will have taken Diana because it's where he always takes them.
It makes you wonder how on earth Tracy was still at large, but of course there's the reputation factor - a rape victim was ruined whether the rapist was prosecuted or not, so the only thing to do was to try and hush it up. I've read that a charge of attempted rape was more likely to get a conviction than one of actual rape, because a woman who had failed to protect her honour was therefore not an 'honest woman' and her evidence could not be relied on!
Jenny wrote: "It makes you wonder how on earth Tracy was still at large, ..."Well, Tracy is a Duke, which makes him almost above the law. He might have ended up on trial if he had actually murdered the young women, but for sexual assault? Not at all.
Especially because it’s said early on that in the past he has never preyed on gentlewomen. Diana’s status is the only thing that makes this a dangerous game for him.
Abigail wrote: "I thought the description of her when he met her in Bath was pretty powerful, evoking a strong physical attraction. As for love, that’s more questionable. Hard to imagine him really loving anyone b..."I reread the passage that you mention, Abigail and I agree, it was well-done. But I also liked the description of how Diana's feelings changed towards Tracy as she got to know him better, moving from being flattered by his attention to being repelled.
Yes, it makes her seem not stupid, however innocent and rustic she might be.
Jenny wrote: "Julie wrote: "He refers to others who had ‘sobbed and implored, railed and raved.’ Am I misreading this, or is he a repeat offender?..."It looks like it - Jack tells Diana's father, when he asks ..."
True, Jenny, I’d forgotten about that.
Such warped logic - how terrible that it pervaded the justice system. And as Barb and Abigail point out, I guess status was (almost) everything.
Mod
As indeed, when it comes to Devil's Cub (view spoiler).
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Jenny wrote: "It makes you wonder how on earth Tracy was still at large, ..."Well, Tracy is a Duke, which makes him almost above the law. He might have ended up on trial if he had actually murder..."
And of course he would be tried in the House of Lords by his "peers" so no member of that august body would want that to happen
Capital crimes of peers were indeed able to be heard in the House of Lords at this time, and it’s worth noting that several received the Death Penalty. It was by no means an easy result to be allowed a ‘trial by ones peers’.
I've just begun These Old Shades and am comparing characters, especial the two Dukes. I will go slowly, though, so as not to get out too far ahead of everybody. I'm going to savor this one; I haven't read it in many years.
Susan I have deleted your Devil's Cub comment. If you look at (some html is ok) above the comment box there are directions on how to do spoiler tags. Sorry I'm in a bit of a rush Marty's b'day.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Sorry Carol! 😊"No worries!
I want to talk about the biggest flaw in the book. When Jack is thought to be the cheat, his friends all draw back, his father disowns him & Jack leaves in disgrace.
When Richard owns up to being the cheat, its "Oh well, it's been seven years, water under the bridge." The book does foreshadow that a few people will shun him & possibly Lavinia, but overall life will carry on.
That's what got to me too. The whole book was based on this big 'event' and then it was solved with no problem.
Teresa wrote: "That's what got to me too. The whole book was based on this big 'event' and then it was solved with no problem."I don't know if Heyer meant the moral of the story to be "Honesty is the Best Policy", but the ending certainly makes it seem like it! Or, maybe, "Dishonesty is the Best Policy". I can't quite make up my mind...
that sure is a major hole in the plot, Carol.
Mod
Yes, GH has been concentrating on Richard's fear of losing Lavinia as being his main motive for letting Jack take the blame and when that is sorted out - rather well, I thought - the whole business of Richard's complete loss of any claim to being a gentleman and a man of honour is just let slide.
Richard's future social life is surely doomed, since he presumably can't be invited anywhere where there will be people who will be insulted at being expected to associate with him; but it doesn't look as though he would much mind that, being happy to live quietly in the country. Lavinia isn't, though - could she be invited to parties without him?
But then there's Jack, who is the Earl of Wyncham, popular, and willing to stand by his brother. There is a hint, perhaps, that his support would be enough to enable Richard to get by in Society - that people would be willing to go to his parties even if they would meet Richard there and would be polite to him for Jack's sake. Does anyone else see it that way?
I think GH was wise to leave that whole part of the back story out when she came to reconstruct it for These Old Shades, though.
Yes - I also think this is the weakest part of the story and I was glad that GH forgot all about it when she re-imagined it as TOS. At the end, the future of Richard and Lavinia is totally glossed over, and I think that’s exactly because GH could not write her way out of that plot weakness. We are just left, supposed to think all will be well when of course it wouldn’t.
Richard has not simply owned up to being the cheat (the ‘crime’ for which Jack was ostracised by all); but also as the lying coward who let his brother take the blame and then deceived his friends and the rest of the ton for so long.
People might have forgiven him the original cheating when Jack showed he had forgiven him and was standing by them, but I doubt they would have forgiven him or Lavinia for the lies and deception thereafter.
Lavinia is such a dreadful woman that I would personally have had great pleasure in giving her the ‘cut direct’ myself! (although I actually could never do that as it goes against everything I believe about how we should treat people - but in my imagination? Enormously satisfying!!)
People might have forgiven him the original cheating when Jack showed he had forgiven him and was standing by them, but I doubt they would have forgiven him or Lavinia for the lies and deception thereafter.this is so true I can't believe I didn't think of it before. Heyer was so skillful I just went along with the ending - things won't be so bad for anyone, happy ending even for Richard and Lavinia but it couldn't work out that way after what happened, it's conpletely inconsistent.
Although I don't think Heyer meant it as such, there's a bit of "deservedness" coming to both Richard and Lavinia. Some people, seeing Jack stand by him, will let things slide, but there are others who might not cut the couple directly, but will not associate with them when the truth is known. Just a wee bit of consequence for them both, and I have to confess that I hope it does smart!
Jackie wrote: "that sure is a major hole in the plot, Carol."It is a measure of GH's skill that she gets us to swallow this!
Richard may be remorseful but he is still a villain - albeit a weak one!
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Jackie wrote: "that sure is a major hole in the plot, Carol."It is a measure of GH's skill that she gets us to swallow this!
Richard may be remorseful but he is still a villain - albeit a weak one!"
I think there's an awful lot of evil done in the world by the weak...
Karlyne wrote: "I think there's an awful lot of evil done in the world by the weak..."
So true!
Richard is even a villain to Lavinia - telling her his dreadful secret after they are married!
I wonder if Richard will get by because no one *really* cares that much about him. I think Jack was always "the one." I know that's a somewhat feeble argument, but I don't personally find the inconsistency that jarring. People (society) can be fickle.
Mod
But she hasn't, has she? We're not swallowing it!
Richard is even a villain to Lavinia - telling her his dreadful secret after they are married!
In contrast to Jack, who accepts that he can't marry because of his loss of honour and tells Diana so.
Jenny wrote: "But she hasn't, has she? We're not swallowing it!"
I did for many years though! Now with the group reads I have become more critical.
Sheila (in LA) wrote: "I wonder if Richard will get by because no one *really* cares that much about him. I think Jack was always "the one." I know that's a somewhat feeble argument, but I don't personally find the incon..."I think you could be right Sheila. Richard is a right wet nilly!!!
But he wasn't a "wet nilly" (love this expression) before. By his own account he was happy, frivolous & irresponsible.He had a change in character after his cheating at cards.
And still wet! He never came across to me at any point as a hero type. Great seeing all the differences of opinion here :)
But she hasn't, has she? We're not swallowing it! I did, and for decades!
Yes, the thing that I (once I was over 18 & there wasn't the sound of things whooshing over my head) always found it odd that Jack & Diana could sit down to dinner & stay the night with Tracy no matter how tired they both were! These things still don't cause me to reduce my rating from 5⭐
*Misty eyes* You just never forget your first (Heyer) love!
Mod
..."
Well, yes! Given that he had tried to rape Diana and (in their first fight, when he produced the pistol) murder Jack. And Diana with no chaperone, either!
I know we are meant to feel mildly sympathetic towards 'Poor Devil', who behaves so badly because of his loveless upbringing, but even so it does seem incomprehensible that they didn't at least get Diana out - or somehow force Tracy to leave.
It's a bit like the ending of The Foundling where (view spoiler) - GH seems to have had a bit of a soft spot for charming villains.
But then ... some villains are charming and they do, in real life, manage to get people to overlook the most atrocious behaviour: I've suddenly remembered falling victim to one myself. You blink afterwards and say "What was I thinking of?!" but at the time it seems perfectly reasonable. Perhaps we're overthinking it.
But I think this perfectly illustrates GH’s innocence when she wrote this. The idea of doing all that would be an anathema to all women and most men - but I truly believe GH had no idea how serious a crime Devil had been about to perpetrate. It didn’t hit me either when I was 17 - but then I was also a very naive and innocent 17 and the whole rape thing passed right over my head. 😉
I don't remember how old I was when I first read this, but my main memory has always been of Richard and Lavinia, who were beyond annoying, both being irrational and self-centered. Truthfully, I didn't even remember Tracy or Diana! Obviously, a huge amount of the book went right over my head...
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "But I think this perfectly illustrates GH’s innocence when she wrote this. The idea of doing all that would be an anathema to all women and most men - but I truly believe GH had no idea how serious..."Yes - GH (as far as I'm aware) never tried to suppress this book. so I guess she was never embarrassed by her naivety & she remained proud that her first very first book was published when she was so young.
Jenny wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I,,, always found it odd that Jack & Diana could sit down to dinner & stay the night with Tracy no matter how tired they both were!..."
Well, yes! Given that he had..."
Not in a million years would I feel sorry for 'Devil'!! Not in any form. An atrocious person!!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "But I think this perfectly illustrates GH’s innocence when she wrote this. The idea of doing all that would be an anathema to all women and most men - but I truly believe GH had no idea how serious..."I know absolutely what you mean Susan.
Karlyne wrote: "I don't remember how old I was when I first read this, but my main memory has always been of Richard and Lavinia, who were beyond annoying, both being irrational and self-centered. Truthfully, I di..."I think I didn't notice until more recent readings how much Richard dominates the book. I'm sure he has even more page
time than Tracy! Lavinia too.
& I just realised - he is GH's first unsatisfactory brother & this is before she financially supported her own two for most of their lives! 😅
Georgette Heyer Fans
Authors mentioned in this topic
Carola Oman (other topics)Joanna Cannan (other topics)
I enjoyed both love stories (yes, I was happy for Lavinia at the end--at least she's learned that she really does love Richard). Tracy's passion for Diana was something I had to believe in because I was told that was how he felt. Necessary to the plot, however!