DB - General Book Chat

[Cobwebs-in-Space-Ice]

Ayo, I’m with you. I don’t do reddit but lately I’ve been reading a lot of “classic” Science Fiction by “famed” authors whom because of their critical acclaim I’ve long admired at a remove; and now reading them, I’m “what the h****?!!” Overwhelmed. Then I have to go shower my mind with woke lit. I definitely grok your position re Grimdark and Grimdark recommendations.

[Cobwebs-in-Space-Ice]

Then I looked up the topic on Google: my hair is standing on end! Women authors of Grimdark too?!! How do women write this stuff?
[I know, how naive am I??]

[Ayo]

Reading Reindeer Emigrates To Pluto wrote: "Ayo, I’m with you. I don’t do reddit but lately I’ve been reading a lot of “classic” Science Fiction by “famed” authors whom because of their critical acclaim I’ve long admired at a remove; and now..."

The worst thing you can do to yourself as a reader is forcing yourself to read all the “big names/classics” just because they are popular or part of the “canon”. The Literature canon is filled with so much bigoted irrelevant dreck but they still get pushed.

So you find yourself reading crap that you hate but feel obligated to read because you can’t be a “real fan” if you don’t read *insert bigoted cis white dude’s books here*

As for non-cis male grimdark authors. Well edgelordness is unisex XD. For the most part a lot on non-cis dude’s grim/dark works either don’t have gratuitous sexual abuse or if it does it actually treats it respectfully, has consequences isn’t just used for shock value. Of course people regardless of gender still mess up and end up using sexual violence as an “oooo look at me so dark so shocking so deep” tactless crutch.

Also there is grimdark written by all genders that doesn’t have sexual violence at all. Those are few and far between but they exist.
It’s difficult because I for example want dark, brutal stories but without all the gross sexual abuse.

[Cobwebs-in-Space-Ice]

I don’t mind dark and brutal (mostly) [I’m a long lifetime reader of Horror] but just the little I’ve looked up this afternoon is kind of mind-boggling in description. Yesterday and today I’ve been reading P. Djeli Clark; “Night Doctors” is plumb grim, dark, nocturnal, incredible; but not gratuitous, imho.

[Ayo]

Reading Reindeer Emigrates To Pluto wrote: "I don’t mind dark and brutal (mostly) [I’m a long lifetime reader of Horror] but just the little I’ve looked up this afternoon is kind of mind-boggling in description. Yesterday and today I’ve been..."

Same! I like horror too it's just the fine line between delightfully dark and gratuitous.

Thanks for the rec!

[Silvana]

Reading Reindeer Emigrates To Pluto wrote: "Then I looked up the topic on Google: my hair is standing on end! Women authors of Grimdark too?!! How do women write this stuff?
[I know, how naive am I??]"

I have not read many female grimdark authors but I remember Kameron Hurley wrote a grimdark trilogy - first book is The Mirror Empire - and I believe I was not triggered with the SV in it (disclaimer: at that particular time). Same with the first two books in Deborah A. Wolf's trilogy.

[Kaa]

I'm not a huge horror fan, but I've had really good luck with the short stories from Nightmare Magazine this year. They published both Night Doctors and Ten Excerpts from an Annotated Bibliography on the Cannibal Women of Ratnabar Island. A couple others I really liked were Malotibala Printing Press by Mimi Mondal and The Secret Life of the Unclaimed by Suyi Davies Okungbowa.

[Beige]

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention we are reading Ten Excerpts From an Annotated Bibliography on the Cannibal Women of Ratnabar Island as or short story if the week, next week over at our sister group, WBtM

All are welcome! 😁
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Cheryl]

Where do we report books that might be considered but we've read and realized should not be? I mean, I just read the trilogy starting with WWW: Wake and now I'm reading Heart's Blood which would both seem like good choices because they're about brave young women.... but no. Because bad things have to happen to these women first, according to the authors. :sigh:

[Beige]

Cheryl wrote: "Where do we report books that might be considered but we've read and realized should not be? I mean, I just read the trilogy starting with WWW: Wake and now I'm reading [book:Heart's..."

I hear you. Our plan is to only compile the books without sigh-inducing SV content. Some of our books do have other forms of disturbing content and we're in the process of adding content warning shelf tags on these.

Maybe you could try vetting your reads beforehand like we do? We use the GR review search function to validate our member recommendations. We start our investigation with keywords like "warning", "graphic", "abuse", "consent", "rape", "trigger" and dig in deeper when reviews raise other concerns. We also dig deeper with on older works, and look at female rep on those written by men.

It does take time, but it might help you to rule about books that will frustrate or trigger you. Drop me a line if youd like further support on how to use GR review search.

[Cheryl]

Thank you for the advice; I have and will continue to use it for myself.

But what I was asking was, how do I make sure these books don't go on this group's bookshelves? I see the thread with 'excluded books' but of course it's locked, so I can't add these titles to it. And I do think they are books that someone might want to add, because they do have strong women in them....

[Beige]

Cheryl wrote: "how do I make sure these books don't go on this group's bookshelves? ..."

Cheryl, here is the process we've agreed upon. Let me know if this helps to clarify.

Going forward, the only way books are added to our group bookshelf is:

1) A member has read it recently and nominates it
2) A moderator validates via GR reviews that it meets our group content rules

⭐ Books with insufficient or conflicting GR reviews will be added to an (upcoming) pending list which members can volunteer to eventually read and report back.

⭐ Books that are recommended and do not meet our group rules are added to the excluded list by a moderator

⭐ Of course, the steps above may not be 100% accurate so members can always request a book to be removed from the bookshelf if they read it and find examples of it not meeting our group rules.

[Cheryl]

Ok, the shelves should be safe then. Thank you for posting the procedure here as it's easier for me to understand in context.

[Beige]

Cheryl wrote: "Ok, the shelves should be safe then. Thank you for posting the procedure here as it's easier for me to understand in context."

I'm glad that helped. I'll ensure the 'condensed version' finds a permanent home 😁

[Cobwebs-in-Space-Ice]

Just saw this:(:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...

[Cheryl]

Under all the contemptuous and misinformed proselytizing, the guy has a point. Too bad a person who uses words to make a living can't use them to reasonably explore an issue.

To be frank, that article almost needs a content or trigger warning. I recommend the sensitive among us *don't* click through. I wish that I hadn't.

[Beige]

Reading Reindeer Emigrates To Pluto wrote: "Just saw this:(:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti..."

Hmm, do you think he's trying to promote a new book? This is a very click bait-ish comment.

Regardless, it's interesting how some people (of any age really) don't understand how much pent up demand there is for inclusive stories. And just how many of us (or our family and friends) haven't felt positively represented in mainstream media.

[Beige]

Cheryl wrote: "To be frank, that article almost needs a content or trigger warning. I recommend the sensitive among us *don't* click through. I wish that I hadn't...."

I stopped at the headline, glad I made the right choice. I don't expect any form of journalism from the DailyMail.

[Mel]

Ugh, I didn't bother past the first few sentences.

I'm of a mind with Ruth Bader Ginsburg and her 9 Justices. The scales have been tipped so far in favor of white cis males as the glorified canon for the past couple thousand years. We have only just barely begun to acknowledge other voices. Come back in a few millennia and we'll see where we stand then.

[Elena]

Oh noes, the white cishet male specimen feels the game is stacked against him. What a novel perspective. *eyeroll*

Melissa, your "Come back in a few millennia and we'll see where we stand then" made me genuinely laugh out loud 😉

[Ayo]

Ruh Oh Rhaggy it looks like the white allocishet males are acting up again

So oppressed; last year they had everything but this year they only had almost everything 😢

[Elena]

Ayo wrote: "So oppressed; last year they had everything but this year they only had almost everything 😢"

Hands down the most effective use of the 😥 emoji EVER 😂

[Ayo]

Elena C. wrote: "Ayo wrote: "So oppressed; last year they had everything but this year they only had almost everything 😢"

Hands down the most effective use of the 😥 emoji EVER 😂"

I do my best 🤣

[Mel]

A much belated thank you to Sarah for stopping by. <3

That's so cool they came by to give us their blessing.

Also, I wanted to say that I'm currently reading The Steerswoman, and at about 3/4 of the way through, I'm getting my hopes up that I can finally recommend a book to this group. It's really sad how long it has taken, and I'm hoping it won't be another near-miss. I'll let you know how it turns out - it'd be a fine way to start 2021.

[Elena]

Melissa wrote: "That's so cool they came by to give us their blessing."

RIGHT?!?!? 😁

Also, I wanted to say that I'm currently reading The Steerswoman, and at about 3/4 of the way through, I'm getting my hopes up that I can finally recommend a book to this group.

Haha, that's a pretty exciting feeling isn't it? Honestly, I can't even remember the last time I was able to do so: I've been aware that my reads were filled with SV for a long time, but it's only thanks to the group that I realized the full extent of the problem.

Fingers crossed we'll see The Steerswoman soon in the rec thread. Melissa 😉

[Ryan]

Reading The Steerswoman in a BR with Melissa and unfortunately it doesn't make the cut.

[Mel]

Alas. I'm sorry it didn't make the cut. There are lots of other things I liked about the book. Two fully grown women MCs traveling together. Black people in positions of power. Deafness and signing. Before the end, there was only one indirect sexual reference, with full consent. It made me hope.

The search continues.

[Elena]

Ryan & Melissa, thank you both!

The search continues indeed...

[Elena]

Just a random post - but... it's quite funny to me that the only two occasions in which I've encountered trolls on GR (by trolls I mean folks who just show up in the comment section of your review to explain to you that you read the book wrong and thus are a miserable idiot who doesn't know how to read fiction), both times they were reviews where I took issue with how rape had been used a plot-device.

[Silvana]

Some people are like that. Don't feed them by replying.

[Elena]

Silvana wrote: "Some people are like that. Don't feed them by replying."

Oh no, I'm really not bothered by such people or what they say, no worries there 😉 What I find disheartening is that sexual violence is apparently a controversial topic, something that attracts this kind of attention in the first place.

[Silvana]

Elena C. wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Some people are like that. Don't feed them by replying."

Oh no, I'm really not bothered by such people or what they say, no worries there 😉 What I find disheartening is that sexual..."

Ah, I see. I think it's become that way even before the Me Too movement started. Maybe people don't want to be seen as condoning sexual violence if they ended up liking a book so that makes some people defensive instead of doing some reflection.

[Elena]

Silvana wrote: "Maybe people don't want to be seen as condoning sexual violence if they ended up liking a book so that makes some people defensive instead of doing some reflection."

This!!! ☝ I definitely think you're onto something here.

[Ryan]

I'm still waiting to recommend CORINTH 2642AD by Bindiya Schaefer (?) to the shelf. I've read a few other books this year that might make the DB shelf but that's one worth actively promoting for how it handles... issues. It's a much happier story than Notes From The Burning Age, which I think also meets the requirements for the group despite being grim.