The Anything Goes chit-chat thread (subject to tiny fine-print rules)

[Traveller]

Yeah, Go Set a Watchman came out after many years of relative silence, eh? ...and you're right, it hurts much more when a person has still been recently active - and not just that, like Terry Pratchett, Eco had been consistently prolific throughout most of his life.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Pratchett hurt a lot too, and I had only read one of his books.

Go Set a Watchman also had a lot of controversy swirling around it, regarding whether the author had been taken advantage of in her dementia after her sister died and whether it was actually the something Lee ever intended to publish. (It may actually have been a first draft of To Kill a Mockingbird that was rejected and turned into something else.)

[Derek]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Always sad when the canon closes for one of the great ones. (Lee's canon has been closed for years, notwithstanding the debacle over the Watchman book. That's one reason I think it does not hurt, r..."

Was there really a "debacle" over Go Set a Watchman? Sure, a lot of people panned it, but it is exactly what it was said to be: a first effort by an unpublished author, and Lee didn't want it edited. As the book Lee wanted published, I think it was a success.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Derek wrote: "Was there really a "debacle" over Go Set a Watchman?"

Yes, there really was. There were several newspaper articles at the time that strongly suggested that she never wanted it published, and that it was only published because she would sign anything they put in front of her once her sister was no longer there to protect her (confusion and dementia). I didn't go deep in the weeds on it myself (I haven't even read TKAM yet), but it was very much in the news in my neck of the woods when GSAW was published.

[Derek]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Derek wrote: "Was there really a "debacle" over Go Set a Watchman?"

Yes, there really was. There were several newspaper articles ..."

Amy, Amy, Amy. Ya' gotta take newspaper articles with more than a grain of salt. Everything I've read suggests that was one "journalist" trying to create a story. Not a debacle, much more like a conspiracy theory.

And why haven't you read To Kill a Mockingbird? My wife insisted...

[Amy (Other Amy)]

:-) I only paid attention while it was happening, since it wasn't on my TBR, and what I read at the time seemed legit. (There were four or five long articles I read on it.) But I'll take your word for it.

TKAM wasn't taught in any of my classes in school, so it's on my list of 'things I should have read but haven't, and probably won't be very good because I didn't read it when one is supposed to' - it's a long list! I'll get to it eventually.

[Traveller]

I wouldn't exactly say that it's incorrect to say there had been a debacle or controversy (or at the very least, a kerfuffle ;) ) around GSAW; as you yourself aptly quipped WRT the relative sizes of coffee cups on either side of the Atlantic, Derek, size is a relative thing.

A storm in a tiny teacup can still count as a storm in a teacup. :D

I personally don't remember much about TKAM myself. So perhaps one day...

[Derek]

There's certainly controversy, but I'd say mostly over whether it's actually any good as literature. Many of the people who would say it isn't, still say it's invaluable as a historical source behind the actual masterpiece that is To Kill a Mockingbird And there have been stories that Lee wouldn't really have approved it if she'd been competent at the time, but they come down to one source and I don't think it's credible. That hardly makes for a debacle.

I barely remember the coffee-cup comment. It's nice to know someone pays so much attention to my ramblings :-)

[Traveller]

I had said I thought about 3 cups of coffee was the recommended daily dose and Linda said she thought one; you pointed out that US 'cups' most probably are larger; and therefore the amount of coffee evens out to something similar.

In any case, Amy did say 'controversy', just for the record. ;) If she had perhaps (which my sharp eye missed) originally said debacle, she had obviously realized that it might be too strong a description of the "sudden and ignominious failure" that befell the work; indeed, it did come out with a lot of hype and fanfare, and then fell a bit flat; and indeed, if one guy said one thing and others disagreed, then I'd say it still qualifies as controversy, but ok, we're hitting a dead horse by now. :) We could have been discussing The Castle with this energy. Or Hamlet! Or TS Eliot! ;)

[Derek]

"Debacle" was a few posts before "controversy" :-)

It certainly fell flat. I don't think you'll find many people who'd say it's a good book, let alone a "great" one, on its own merits. I'm not disagreeing that it's controversial, I just don't think it qualifies as any kind of debacle.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

I promise to be more selective in my choice of words! I formally retract debacle in favor of controversy as Traveller suggests.

The real controversy now (in a small cup of coffee, perhaps an espresso) is whether TKAM is still worth reading given that GSAW was fully intended by the author, no? (I'm having really bad luck with sequels and series endings lately.). I haven't read either, so I won't attempt to figure that out.

I just picked up my inter library loan of The Castle, so I'd best get to my TBR.

[Derek]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "The real controversy now (in a small cup of coffee, perhaps an espresso) is whether TKAM is still worth reading given that GSAW was fully intended by the author, no?"

Absolutely! TKAM is a real, finished, novel. GSAW, probably not. Whether or not one believes Lee wanted GSAW published last year, there's a very good reason it wasn't published 50 years earlier! Lee knew it wasn't worthy of publication in its own right, but perhaps it's worthwhile academically.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Good point.

[Traveller]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "I promise to be more selective in my choice of words! "

You have to count your words around here, Amy! :D If it makes you feel any better, Derek apparently manages to catch every mis-step I make as well. He keeps us up to standard, he does! As long as he doesn't start charging editing fees, I'm ok with that, thanks Derek. XD

[Traveller]

Btw, just in case anybody had not noticed, Jan has posted an awesome list which is well worth checking out, as well as his commentary thereon, here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

EDIT: On my suggestion, Jan moved his list, so I edited the link above accordingly. :)

[Traveller]

Oooh, let's hope they manage to move fast with this kind of technology!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/sujatakun...

[Amy (Other Amy)]

That's cool, Traveller.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

I came by to say I'm really enjoying our super-mash-up challenge, and not just because it's the only one of my challenges I'm really doing decently on so far this year. It's fun to put a puzzle together.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Traveller wrote: "Anyone been to see Star Wars yet? Cinemas have been so packed that I decided to only go see it on Monday or so.

..but I'm curious: has it gone Disney? :P"

I just wanted to announce that I finally saw Star Wars last night. (My Christmas plans fell through due to weather and i am just now getting around to it.) I...may have to forgive Disney for some previous sins. It was quite a pleasure to see.

[Derek]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "I...may have to forgive Disney for some previous sins"

Like doing the same thing over and over? ;-)

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Derek wrote: "Like doing the same thing over and over? ;-)"

Yes, shoehorning every single fairy tale, legend, or even bit of history that they meet into the exact same template, is pretty much my general gripe.

[Derek]

Yeah—but that's what they just did with Star Wars. It's Episode IV all over again.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Derek wrote: "Yeah—but that's what they just did with Star Wars. It's Episode IV all over again."

It absolutely is, and that's going to seriously weaken the trilogy overall IMHO, but I was so busy being relieved that they didn't actually wreck it that I didn't care. (I mean, Episode I to III were really, really horrible from my perspective.) I did slightly resent what appears to be (view spoiler)[developing instalove between Finn and Rey (hide spoiler)], but given Disney and Star Wars' track history here, it wasn't a shock.

[Derek]

No, no, no. (view spoiler)[They're just friends. Well, probably twins... ;-) And as a twist on the original series, Finn will discover he really loves Poe. (hide spoiler)] Of course, given Disney's track history, that would be a shock.

But I guess I do agree that it was a major relief "that they didn't actually wreck it"!

[Amy (Other Amy)]

LOL. I had (view spoiler)[Rey and Ren pegged as the twins. If they put Finn and Poe together, (hide spoiler)] I will forgive Disney everything, just for the shock!

[Derek]

Well, we know Ren's parentage, so making him anybody's twin now would annoy an awful lot of people. But... I'm not sure if that would a bad thing or a good thing!

[Traveller]

LOL, wow, I saw it so long ago that I'd already forgotten half the story! :P In fact, my current musings have gone more in the direction of wondering who won: Batman or Superman! :D

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Episode I to III were really, really horrible from my perspective...."

I am the only person in the world who actually liked episode 1, and although 2 and 3 sucked in various ways, the production values are just so much better than the first 3 made that featured all those muppets, that I could -almost- forgive the suckiness.

But yes, of course twins are obligatory, as is a female hero and an inter-racial love affair. I could have thought of sexier candidates for the male role there, buut oh well, I do luv luv the female kick-ass character more than I can say. XD

I also really liked that princess Leya was much less of the helpless little princess who has to be rescued than she was in the first 3 epsiodes. (Ep 3-6, that is)

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Derek wrote: "Well, we know Ren's parentage, so making him anybody's twin now would annoy an awful lot of people. But... I'm not sure if that would a bad thing or a good thing!"

I can't make up my mind (good or bad) either. (view spoiler)[Possibly he's not her twin; could just be her brother? I'm almost positive I heard his voice in the scene where Ren was shown as a little girl with the ship leaving, but I couldn't catch what he said. (hide spoiler)] I am probably going to have to shell out for the DVD after all to go over it again.

[Derek]

But how can the authors just have forgotten to mention that Leia and Han had another child...

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Traveller wrote: "LOL, wow, I saw it so long ago that I'd already forgotten half the story! :P In fact, my current musings have gone more in the direction of wondering who won: Batman or Superman! :D"

I am seriously thinking about seeing the Batman vs. Superman thing this weekend :-)

For me, characters are paramount, and they ruined Anakin Skywalker's character in Ep I-III, so I pretty much just pretend those three never happened.

I never thought of Leia as a helpless little princess! She was mean and tough as hell in Ep IV! Called a wookie a big walking carpet! The scene at Jabba the Hut's place in Ep VI was a disgrace, but she was doing the rescuing there.

But yes, I love, love, love Rey. Competent, smart, is the Jedi AND the pilot*? Total love. Finn grew on me too, and I thought he was suitably handsome. (Star Wars has never really been the franchise for gorgeous people, for some reason.) I didn't love the guy they got for Ren, but I'll cope.

*I keep having to remind myself Luke was a pilot too for some reason, maybe because they needed Han for the long flights.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Derek wrote: "But how can the authors just have forgotten to mention that Leia and Han had another child..."

I don't think they forgot. The overall sense that I had in the theater was of information rushing by, that we are only getting a little bit of the whole story and there's a lot more to come. I could just be 100% wrong on this, of course, but it's my working theory for now. We have to have some kind of 'I am your father' reveal in Ep VIII, after all.

[Traveller]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "We have to have some kind of 'I am your father' reveal in Ep VIII, after all.
"

:D
PS. At one time, "I AM YOH FATHA!" was a fave phrase in our household.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Ours too :-) My brother used to have the misquote ('Luke, I am your father') in his regular rotation of movie quips and various phrases quite a bit. So many good quotable lines in these movies.

[Traveller]

We used to say it in the context of: "You'd better do what I say, because I AM YOH FATHA! "

[Derek]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "We have to have some kind of 'I am your father' reveal in Ep VIII, after all."

Yeah, but it can't be Leia and Han. They've already lost one son to the Dark Side, if they managed to actually physically lose another child, the Star Wars fan Empire will Strike Back. More likely Luke, about whom we know practically nothing.

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Luke is my second working theory, since (view spoiler)[Rey remembers that ocean and island. (hide spoiler)]. Could just be some weird Force thing, though.

[Derek]

That's your better working theory :-)

[Amy (Other Amy)]

You are most likely right ;-) Man, I may need to watch this again tonight.

[Traveller]

I'm pretending not to hear you guys. :P

[Amy (Other Amy)]

LOL. What do you mean, you have no time to geek out over Star Wars theories right now? *guiltily goes back to working*

[Derek]

It's after hours for Traveller and me :-)

It's all just wild theorizing, Trav. I have no inside track (and I doubt Amy does either).

[Amy (Other Amy)]

Nope, definitely no inside track here. Just musing.

[Linda]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "LOL. I had [spoilers removed] I will forgive Disney everything, just for the shock!"

I thought as you did at first, Amy. But then realized that the parents couldn't possibly be clueless with regard to that. My thought was (view spoiler)[Rey is Luke's daughter. He apparently never married, and it would make sense that he had a daughter out there that he didn't know about, or did know about, but sacrificed to set up Jedi School. I would think that if she were a sister to Kylo, : 1) she'd remember Han and Leia as her parents 2) they would have recognized it during this film). (hide spoiler)]

[Linda]

Derek wrote: "But how can the authors just have forgotten to mention that Leia and Han had another child..."

Agreed. But then again, the writer is JJ "Lost-characters-are-not-in-Purgatory-oh!-whoops!-yes-three-years-later-they-ARE-in-Purgatory" Abrams.

[Jennifer]

I saw it twice in the theaters and just got the DVD...say what you will. As a parent, seeing my son, buy into the whole Star Wars experience was worth it. He had worn out the DVD's of the previous six. Funny though, he watched the second three over and over, more than the first three.

[Linda]

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Luke is my second working theory, since [spoilers removed]. Could just be some weird Force thing, though."

Hahahaha, last year's conference in Limerick caused some who had flown into Dublin to gripe about the four hour bus ride from Dublin to Limerick. Seeing that scene in the film made me laugh, because someone said, "Oh, they think that's bad? Maybe next time, we'll have it on top of a hill somewhere." And I suggested the skelligs. Concurrent panels taking place on two separate skelligs; if you wish to switch locations for the next panel, you have to row yourself on over! Even though I've never been there, only seen it off in the distance, I immediately recognized it!

[Linda]

Jennifer wrote: "I saw it twice in the theaters and just got the DVD...say what you will. As a parent, seeing my son, buy into the whole Star Wars experience was worth it. He had worn out the DVD's of the previous ..."

I liked it, with the exception of the ending. Oh, that ending.......:(
As someone who didn't see the final two episodes of Anakin's transition, I was able to watch this one and it felt seamless. Though now that I've seen some memes, I realize maybe it would be worth watching.
Sorry, Amy, but the bar scene with all the aliens (if that's what you mean by 'muppets") always thrills me...in the original and this one.

[Jennifer]

I love muppets. Didn't you guys watch the Muppet Show??

[Derek]

Well, who doesn't love muppets. Amy's Traveller's treading on very dangerous ground. And in any case, that loathsome Jar-Jar Binks was worse than any muppets in the original series. Though the teddy bears were pretty stupid (and pretty much stolen from Little Fuzzy).

[Traveller]

:D I was the one who made the muppet comment... yeah, I'm referring to all the furry creatures who are so like stuffed toys...

Linda, how absolutely great to see you joining our chatter again!
I had been thinking about you, wondering what you're up to, and had several times meant to send you a PM to check if you're still alive and well, but you seem to be both, so that's good. \0/

PS. ..and once again, I am the only person in the entire universe besides George Lucas who actually enjoyed silly old Jar-Jar. :P