Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Ulysses
>
4. Calypso
date
newest »
newest »
Adelle wrote: "I’m suddenly forced to think about Lily’s post: Judge...."Thx for your thoughtful posts, Adelle. As I tried to include, it seems our very nature and necessity as humans to judge. But, we may need to do it less than we sometimes suppose. Or, when we do, we oft need to open ourselves to (greater) understanding of what we are doing, the boundaries, and the ramifications thereof. (There is a passage at the beginning of Chapter 9 to which all this might or might not be applied which struck me today.)
What the point was of making Bloom Jewish, even though he doesn't really stick to his Jewishness?
OMG I haven't seen that in ages! Thanks, Patrice! :)
Patrice wrote: "I think Joyce shows us how it worked, although Bloom isn't really Jewish, he is to the people around him."That is really telling, perhaps the ultimate definition of what it means to be an outsider. You've just given Bloom a new depth as a character for me.
Patrice wrote: "
Thank you, Patrice.
I find that I know so very little about the Jewish religion...so what you tell me is helpful.
The ones I know are secular---though my husband and I joined them once for the meal with the unleavened bread (sorry...I can't recall right now)... and all through the meal the husband, the wife, and the mother-in-law argued over when to open the door, how this should be done, etc... I was shocked. They just argued and argued over what was "right" ... and they weren't even strict followers.
Catholic friend--- has left the church... but the children are being sent to a Catholic school.
Thank you, Patrice.
I find that I know so very little about the Jewish religion...so what you tell me is helpful.
The ones I know are secular---though my husband and I joined them once for the meal with the unleavened bread (sorry...I can't recall right now)... and all through the meal the husband, the wife, and the mother-in-law argued over when to open the door, how this should be done, etc... I was shocked. They just argued and argued over what was "right" ... and they weren't even strict followers.
Catholic friend--- has left the church... but the children are being sent to a Catholic school.
Wendel wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Haven't made it to those episodes yet so that information can't influence me. .."
Oops, am I straying on my own? It is difficult to remember exactly what we learned in which episode..."
Oh, don't give it another thought. It's next to impossible to remember where the stuff is located.
Oops, am I straying on my own? It is difficult to remember exactly what we learned in which episode..."
Oh, don't give it another thought. It's next to impossible to remember where the stuff is located.
Nancy wrote: "What the point was of making Bloom Jewish, even though he doesn't really stick to his Jewishness?"The Nabokov passage that Lily quoted and Patrice's comment @120 are right on the money, IMO. Bloom is an outsider -- specifically an outsider by chance of birth (as opposed to Stephen, who is an outsider by choice.)
But why did Joyce choose outsiders as his heroes?
For dramatic reasons, but I also think he did it in order to comment on Dublin society. Bloom acts as a foil for the rest of the city. Our focus has been on Bloom for the past few episodes because we are privy to his interior monologue, but stepping back a moment we also see how his neighbors treat him: not very well, for the most part. This friction provides the dramatic impetus for the novel, but it is also a commentary on Dubliners themselves. (Patrice mentioned that Joyce is not very well liked in Ireland. This is one reason why.)
Lily wrote: "Adelle wrote: "I’m suddenly forced to think about Lily’s post: Judge...."
Thx for your thoughtful posts, Adelle. As I tried to include, it seems our very nature and necessity as humans to judge. ..."
When I came back to your "Don't judge," but we do... and we must... I don't know, Lily. Right now I'm thinking Judge... because one must and the acts themselves must be judged...but try to understand WHY people do things... understanding doesn't make "wrong" acts "right"... but maybe we can understand and soften our hearts sometimes.
Like.. extreme example... one almost must judge and put serial killers behind bars... but... if one knew the whole story... perhaps we would still lock them away... but.. we might have more understand of how they became who they were.
Don't know.
Thx for your thoughtful posts, Adelle. As I tried to include, it seems our very nature and necessity as humans to judge. ..."
When I came back to your "Don't judge," but we do... and we must... I don't know, Lily. Right now I'm thinking Judge... because one must and the acts themselves must be judged...but try to understand WHY people do things... understanding doesn't make "wrong" acts "right"... but maybe we can understand and soften our hearts sometimes.
Like.. extreme example... one almost must judge and put serial killers behind bars... but... if one knew the whole story... perhaps we would still lock them away... but.. we might have more understand of how they became who they were.
Don't know.
Patrice wrote: "Thanks Kathy. That's what I was thinking about in answer to Nancy. It's just my impression that neither SD nor Bloom are really at home in their homes. SD is removed from the all encompassing be..."
Thank you! Very helpful.
Thank you! Very helpful.
Thomas wrote: "Our focus has been on Bloom for the past few episodes because we are privy to his interior monologue, but stepping back a moment we also see how his neighbors treat him: not very well, for the most part."Yes, that's the part of what Patrice said that really struck me. He is trapped between who he "really" is and how his neighbors see him. You will always be outside if those around you see you as an outsider, even if, technically, you aren't or shouldn't be. Bloom may not be particularly Jewish (or Jewish at all, if one goes by the "rule" that Judaism is passed through the mother's line), but as long as his neighbors see him that way, so it shall be.
Adelle wrote: "Like.. extreme example... one almost must judge and put serial killers behind bars... but... if one knew the whole story... perhaps we would still lock them away..."Adelle: A sidebar, but for a thoughtful current meditation on an issue such as you pose try The Enchanted by Rene Denfeld. Denfeld has some background to go with writing the fictional story she does.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
Thomas wrote: "Nancy wrote: "What the point was of making Bloom Jewish, even though he doesn't really stick to his Jewishness?"The Nabokov passage that Lily quoted and Patrice's comment @120 are right on the mo..."
Sometimes outsider status is mutual. Bloom is not really ostracized, he's just not a good old boy. I think he prefers that status. Choosing to be on the edge is an acceptable option. I think each of the men in hades have flaws.
Patrice wrote: "So is this the promise that he made in Portrait fulfilled? Didn't he say he wanted to create the "conscience" of his people?"I always thought that was just pretentious Stephen heading out of Dublin on his high horse. I'm not really sure what it means, to tell you the truth. This ridiculous finale is one of the reasons A Portrait of the Artist kind of annoys me... but Stephen kind of annoys me in general. :-)
Thomas wrote: "Stephen kind of annoys me in general. :-) ...":-) Does Joyce?
Did we all underline metempsychosis? Reincarnation, history as an (endless?) cycle. We don't know yet in what way, but no doubt it will reappear as an important concept (in Ulysses).
Thomas wrote: "This ridiculous finale is one of the reasons A Portrait of the Artist kind of annoys me... but Stephen kind of annoys me in general. :-) "I'm relieved to hear others say this because I've tried over the years to read Portrait maybe four times and could never get through it! I thought it was because there was nothing in Stephen's experience for me to "relate to," but that explanation never quite convinced me, since I've certainly read many books with protagonists I couldn't "relate to" (it kind of annoys me when people make this a criteria of their reading, hence the quotation marks). So I feel vindicated by some of the comments about Portrait that have cropped up in our discussion so far! (Even though you obviously "got through it," Thomas :) ).
Patrice wrote: "Still, I love SD. I just love him. Why? For one thing, he lives in the world of ideas/ideals. Not the real world. And he's lost. When I wound up in the wrong lane, facing oncoming traffic, I related. A lot. ;-) "Joyce once remarked that the title was Portrait of the Artist As A Young Man and that readers sometimes forgot that the artist grew up. Stephen is immature, and Joyce portrays him with admirable precision. He doesn't prettify him -- he's there in all his mopey lice-ridden arrogant glory.
Stephen may be an idealist (as far art is concerned anyway) but Joyce is not. The ideas are not nearly as important as the everyday details. Joyce once said you could learn more about a man from the way he wears his hat than by the way he goes to war, because a man has to put on his hat everyday, but he only goes to war maybe once in a lifetime. I'm not sure if that's true, but it is an insight into the way Joyce thought about his art.
Patrice wrote: "...How on earth did he know this word?...."Patrice -- you comment reminded me of this: "Ulysses is a fat book of more than two hundred sixty thousand words; it is a rich book with a vocabulary of about thirty thousand words." p285, N again.
I don't know who has counted the vocabulary, nor does the comment answer your question, but I know I stumbled over that factoid, trying to remember what is considered the range of the vocabularies of "typical" English-speaking people -- don't remember right now and haven't gone searching. But it is considerably smaller if my recollection is at all accurate. I also don't remember, as a measure, what is considered to be the vocabulary of English words. As I recall, it is substantially larger than many other languages because of its heavy borrowing, often from them.
Lily wrote: "Ulysses is a fat book of more than two hundred sixty thousand words; it is a rich book with..."The English vocabulary is said by some to be over a million words, but this would count various senses and forms as separate words. The unabridged Webster's contains about 450,000 words, the OED about 600,000 definitions. This is not shockingly large -- the Dutch dictionary has 500,000. So much depends on what counts as a word. One source I looked at claimed about 170,000 English words are in common use. I've heard that an educated vocabulary might be as high as 20,000. A troll through Google produces estimates of ordinary vocabulary from 8000 to 35,000.
You can't conclude much from this. Apparently the vocabulary of Ulysses is large but not really really large. Maybe it's a preference for unusual or made-up words which gives that impression.
Patrice wrote: "I'm not sure I was clear...."You're right, I misunderstood. Sorry, Patrice. Like you say, Bloom does read/write a bit. Don't many of us have some rather off-the-wall or not-so-off-the-wall unusual concepts we grab onto? At least it didn't particularly strike me as odd. (Do you know anyone who frequents Edgar Cayce lectures -- that type of person might know a word like this?)
Charles wrote: "...One source I looked at claimed about 170,000 English words are in common use. I've heard that an educated vocabulary might be as high as 20,000. A troll through Google produces estimates of ordinary vocabulary from 8000 to 35,000...."Thanks for the research, Charles. Fits with what I remember seeing, but no way could I have recalled well enough to post. For some reason I'm not surprised at the Dutch (I forget the reasons, though. Perhaps because they were such planetary merchants so early and thus in contact with and used so many languages?); I believe it was French and Spanish that surprised me enough that I wondered if I was looking at a good source.
Kathy wrote: "I've tried over the years to read Portrait maybe four times and could never get through it!"This is so interesting to me, because my experience is just the opposite. In my last year of high school, a perceptive English teacher pointed me at this book, and I was electrified. I couldn't stop reading it, and it played a major role in my eventual decision to drop out of conventional society and become a creative writer. In my life I've read the book all the way through at least 4 times, maybe 5, and part-way through a couple-three more.
My own thought is that the amount that one identifies with a character is maybe the dominant factor in how much one engages with a work, but that this should not throw one off one's critical equilibrium, so to say. My first major literary experience was reading Crime and Punishment when I was 13, but although I found that gripping and even transforming, I never identified with Raskolnikov as I did with Stephen Dedalus.
Kathy wrote: "Well, that's a relief! ;)"Ha ha!
Kathy wrote: "Well, that's a relief! ;)"True...
Sorry I haven't read all of the comments as I'm still too far behind! Forgive me if this has already been said. Kidneys are eaten nowadays in Ireland, sometimes as steak and kidney pie, but sometimes just as kidneys. For breakfast though ...? Personally, kidney is one food that I feel repulsed by. I don't think that nowadays offal is considered poor man's meat although in the Joyce era it may have been.Also, the outside toilet/lavatory/loo/restroom would have been commonplace in those days in Ireland and the use of newspaper for toilet paper would have been standard practice. I don't know if toilet roll had even been invented. If it had I might hazard a guess that the wealthy would have considered it the sanitiser of choice, though I don't believe that the toilet and newspaper are necessarily indicators of poverty.
Hilary wrote: "Sorry I haven't read all of the comments as I'm still too far behind! "You're not alone. Thanks for the information; it's great to have some "real world" confirmation of Joyce's descriptions.
I cook beef and pork kidneys sometimes, when I can get them. It is a bit of work preparing them to cook but as long as you don't overcook them they are good. Same with beef heart. I usually partially freeze the beef heart to make it easy to slice and then stir fry it. Anyway, I am not sure about the status of Pork or Beef Kidneys in 1904 but lamb kidneys were a breakfast dish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deville...
Thanks for that, Theresa. I had forgotten about devilled kidneys though I've never had the dubious pleasure of eating them! Perhaps the spiciness would make them palatable. Beef heart I have never tried. My only sally into eating offal has been liver. At Christmas our turkey always contains a sealed bag of offal. Some make stock with the bits and pieces and some cook and eat them. I'm afraid that ours are discarded!
If there is not market demand, offal has often been less expensive meat (protein) to buy and hence associated with economic level. In other areas and times, either demand (e.g., French use of sweetbreads - brains) or processing/handling methods may impact the economics - sometimes making organ meats more costly than other cuts.Not particularly relevant, but here are a couple of articles that talk about more issues related to meat production than anyone here probably cares to think about. (My extended family includes beef producers, hence perhaps I have this slightly askew perspective.) I don't recommend reading if squeamish about these topics, but they do suggest the careful handling that meats with high water content (like kidneys) may require to be delivered in prime condition, yet their potential value as nutrient sources.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0562e/T056...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/artic...
Patrice wrote: "But why did Joyce say that Bloom ate with relish the inner organs? What came to my mind was an animal, ripping open it's prey and devouring the inner organs first. I think it's human nature to avo..."
That is why I wrote that there seems to be that aspect of self punishment about Bloom. He may eat those meats from necessity. But he eats them with relish. He's relished a couple other places in the book. Like Martha letters. .. you naughty boy...you must be punished. ..etc. see earlier post.
Anyway...that is still my perspective. ..that Bloom believes he deserves punishment ... and enjoys it because he believes he deserves it.
"I've been a naughty boy."
Slap! !
"Thank you. I've been a naughty boy."
That is why I wrote that there seems to be that aspect of self punishment about Bloom. He may eat those meats from necessity. But he eats them with relish. He's relished a couple other places in the book. Like Martha letters. .. you naughty boy...you must be punished. ..etc. see earlier post.
Anyway...that is still my perspective. ..that Bloom believes he deserves punishment ... and enjoys it because he believes he deserves it.
"I've been a naughty boy."
Slap! !
"Thank you. I've been a naughty boy."
Mmm, food (sic) for thought, Patrice. :-)
In one story of Calypso, Odysseus has been on Calypso's island for seven years and compelled to lie with her every night. According to the story, Calypso "had long ago 'ceased to please' and Odysseus is feeling his exile very acutely." Athena and Hermes intervene and Odysseus sets off for Ithaca. Although Molly is usually aligned with Penelope, might she also have some correspondence with Calypso?
MIght the Zionist pamphlet in this episode parallel the milk woman in Telemacus, as calls back to the homeland? Neither SD nor Bloom seem to have their hearts in Ireland or Israel respectively, and therefore those locations are not the place of homecoming. Is Ithaca for SD and Bloom a metaphoric rather than physical location?
Susan wrote: "Although Molly is usually aligned with Penelope, might she also have some correspondence with Calypso?"
I think so, because there's no reason why she can't be associated with both. These are complicated people. Bloom eats pork kidney for breakfast, then turns vegetarian for a bit, then in the afternoon he's back to liver and bacon. What's that quote about consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds?
Thomas wrote: "Susan wrote: "Although Molly is usually aligned with Penelope, might she also have some correspondence with Calypso?
"
I think so, because there's no reason why she can't be associated with both. ..."
Molly is introduced in the Calypso chapter. I have been equating her with Calypso ... at least from Bloom's pov.
"
I think so, because there's no reason why she can't be associated with both. ..."
Molly is introduced in the Calypso chapter. I have been equating her with Calypso ... at least from Bloom's pov.
Patrice wrote: "Just an idea...Is Joyce joshing us? Bloom, this ordinary guy, is cast as Odysseus? Molly, this unfaithful diva, is cast as Penelope the faithful and unassuming wife? I suspect there is method be..."
Interesting angle.
Could be.
Interesting angle.
Could be.
I'm not convinced that eating kidneys makes you a massochist (I'm not going to bother to find the correct spelling, Joyce won't mind). If it is so everyone in asia must think every cheese eating westerner is a pervert.
I think the point may be he has a sensuous, carnal nature and doesn't squirm at the smells and tastes of the world. Still, he has obviously suffered in his life. He is a bit crude by anglo saxon standards but he doesn't seem cruel so far and he doesn't seem alienated from himself or stand-offish.
I also suspect that he is quite the adventurer, though he might seem rather boring at first. People who want to eat strange foods, are attracted to wild women and wild men (or both), don't mind dwelling on the details of death, are adventurers at heart, don't you think?
Paula wrote: "Thomas, was Molly pregnant when they got married? The dates would seem to indicate it right? It's too early for me to get a sense of the passion between them except for this one small tidbit. But t..."A chronology I read said that was true, but I don't think there has been any verification in the text.
Tiffany wrote: "Completely off topic, I was wondering about this desire for pork kidney. When I think of foods that I enjoy first thing in the morning, pork kidney doesn't come to mind. Was kidney a standard break..."Based on my experience in Holland in the 60's, meat was a luxury even in a middle class home. The father was a researcher at a university working on potato genetics so well enough off. But there was one micron thin slice of meat or blood sausage for each person at lunch. We Americans were tempted to take two or more slices, but suffered the comment, "Oh, she's building a skyscraper!" and thereafter took just the one slice. The dinner was cabbage and potatoes with a kielbasa sausage cut in lengths to match the number at the table. Also, my grandmother, a Canadian farm wife used to selling the best parts of the cattle, ate with relish the offal she bought at the local butcher after she moved to Los Angeles and could afford other cuts. In Ireland a couple of years ago we had black blood pudding, eggs and cooked tomatoes for breakfast. LOts of ways to eat with relish!
kidneys for breakfast was also in fashion at the time.
Thomas wrote: "What's that quote about consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds?"Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
Kathy wrote: "Thomas wrote: "What's that quote about consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds?"Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.""
Ah, yes. Thanks Kathy.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
The Enchanted (other topics)Lectures on Literature (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Rene Denfeld (other topics)Vladimir Nabokov (other topics)
Lucie Novak (other topics)
Patrice -- I know we try to avoid quoting sources here, so I am going to put this in spoiler format, so it can be ignored. But, it posts a passage from Nabokov's Lectures on Literature that I am finding useful to consider and that may respond a bit to the points you are positing:
"Before discussing the matter and manner of the book, I have still a few words to say about the main character Leopold Bloom. (view spoiler)[ When Proust portrayed Swann, he made Swann an individual, with individual, unique characteristics. Swann is neither a literary type nor a racial type, though he happens to be the son of a Jewish stockbroker. In composing the figure of Bloom, Joyce's intention was to place among endemic Irishmen in his native Dublin someone who was Irish as he, Joyce, was, but who also was an exile, a black sheep in the fold, as he, Joyce, was. Joyce evolved the rational plan, therefore, of selecting for the type of an outsider, the type of the Wandering Jew, the type of the exile. However, I shall explain later that Joyce is sometimes crude in the way he accumulates and stresses so-called racial traits..... [At this point, Nabokov went on to make comments on what he perceives to be other (heterosexual) traits Joyce has given Bloom.] p287 pb (hide spoiler)]