4. Calypso

[Linda]

Adelle wrote: "I don't know how all the parts fit yet. Maybe never will. But I see Bloom SO ... domesticated. .. so... solicitousness of Molly...

But outside the house...Bloom is a very different man. Even his ..
smile...."interior dialogue " is different outside the house.

Why?"

Hmmm...I guess I did not notice him being a different man outside the house. It will be something I'll try to look out for now.

But as far as the domestication, I liked that part of Bloom. He just seemed like he was trying to please his wife by doing the things she likes (making her breakfast just so). The incident reminded me of my husband, preparing my breakfast while I'm still lounging in bed.

And since this is only one morning we are glimpsing as so far, who knows, perhaps Molly does similar sorts of things for Bloom but we have not been able to witness them yet? Although of course, the possible infidelity by Molly leaves a big question there as to if she would try to please him domestically. Why might she be having an affair in the first place, then?

[Linda]

Tiffany wrote: "So neither Stephen nor Bloom can 'go home' now. This looks like it will be an exciting day!"

Ha ha! That is does. :D

[Everyman]

Laurel wrote: "These are not the type of people I am used to associating with."

Would you care to clarify? In what way? All of them, or only some of them? That was a pretty broad statement you offered; I'm curious.

[Everyman]

Zippy wrote: "Good heavens. I totally missed the infidelity. Where was it?"

It was more implied than stated.

I am finding that with Joyce, you don't need to simply read between the lines, you need to read between the words, and sometimes between the letters.

Almost everything of any importance is offered, I'm finding, only by implication. I'm actually starting to develop a rule for myself: if something is clear and obvious, it's of little or no importance.

I'll have to see whether this continues as the book progresses, but for now it seems to be serving as a pretty good rule of thumb!

[Everyman]

Nancy wrote: "I'm still here, Patrice! And quite enjoying Calypso. "

Excellent! We need all the reader voices we can get!

[Everyman]

Kathy wrote: "So I couldn't help exclaiming at the first line of this section: "Mr. Leopold Bloom ate with relish the inner organs of beasts and fowls." That made me laugh out loud and established character faster than any other first line I think I've ever read! "

Love it!

While for modern American readers this may seem like a somewhat offal and even disgusting set of "delicacies," for my father, who was raised in England, these were indeed not only edibles but very enjoyable ones. We had tongue several times a year (and would have had it more often had it not been as expensive), my mother cooked liver often, and when we went to visit relatives in England we feasted on steak and kidney pie, and of course sweetbread.

I take this opening sentence to mean, as Thomas suggested, that Bloom is interested in the physical aspects more than the mental, but I also see him as a gourmand rather than a gourmet.

[Everyman]

Linda wrote: "Well, I don't want to stuff the threads with bits that I found amusing. "

Oh, go ahead. Stuff us with amusement. If it gets to be too much, Thomas can open a separate thread for the amusements. But it's fun to see what parts of a book other people found particularly fun.

[Everyman]

Linda wrote: "I was chuckling at this part - hurrying to get his kidney wrapped and paid for so he could get out of the shop quickly after her...and then...she's gone."

That, and also his worrying that she would take the last kidney. I wonder how different his day would have been if she had indeed gotten it and he had to settle in disgruntlement for bacon for breakfast. Isn't it often the little things in our mornings that make or break a day?

[Everyman]

Wendel wrote: "Heaving read one or two of Joyce's famous letters to Nora, I have no doubt that Bloom inherited some of his creators kinks... So if Stephen shows us one side of Joyce, Bloom embodies another."

That's interesting, since Stephen is supposed to be autobiographical. If Joyce had to use Bloom to embody parts of him not in Stephen, does that mean that he didn't think he could cram all of himself into Stephen, or that his readers wouldn't believe a Stephen that was the complete Joyce?

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "Thomas wrote that Bloom enjoyed the earthy pleasures. On my second read through, I started to think it was more than that. Almost like self- flagellation. EDIT ADDED. Not self-flagellation. He's not doing it to himself. But it's as though he's accepting punishment "I deserve it." or something.... *see below. What might Bloom have done to deserve punishment."

I didn't pick up on that punishment part. What did you see that I didn't?

[Everyman]

Susan wrote: "Molly and Leopold have a comfortable equilibrium, sustainable existence. I think they both like the home stability from which they can pursue their trysts. "

I agree about the comfortable and sustainable existence. I also agree that she has trysts. But I'm not so sure yet that we've seen Bloom being unfaithful to her. Yes, he admires the woman in the shop, perhaps even lusts a little, but have you seen anything to suggest that he goes beyond looking and maybe yearning?

All men look. Not all men touch.

[Linda]

Everyman wrote: "Oh, go ahead. Stuff us with amusement. If it gets to be too much, Thomas can open a separate thread for the amusements. But it's fun to see what parts of a book other people found particularly fun. "

Great! Perhaps I will let loose next time. :)

Sometimes I find myself smiling about all the amusing bits while reading, but not seeing all of these "bigger picture" connections and serious matters that everyone else does until I come to the threads and read the discussions.

[Linda]

Everyman wrote: "That, and also his worrying that she would take the last kidney. I wonder how different his day would have been if she had indeed gotten it and he had to settle in disgruntlement for bacon for breakfast. Isn't it often the little things in our mornings that make or break a day?"

Oh yes, I also found Bloom worrying about the last kidney amusing.

I also wonder what would have happened if she had bought the last kidney and his day was ruined over bacon instead. Might we have been reading an entirely different book from here on?

[Tommi]

Linda wrote: "Sometimes I find myself smiling about all the amusing bits while reading, but not seeing all of these "bigger picture" connections and serious matters that everyone else does until I come to the threads and read the discussions."

Don't worry, you're not alone!

[Wendel]

Everyman wrote @70: "...does that mean that he didn't think he could cram all of himself into Stephen..."

1) Joyce probably could have done so, had he wanted to. Luckily, authors keep their characters a bit simpler than we are.

2) I'm new to Ulysses, but I did read a Joyce biography, and it is difficult not to notice certain similarities. Just gossip, of course.

3) And while Bloom may be a bit peculiar in some respects, there is so much in his thinking that feels familiar. He is never for a moment consistent so nonjudgmental, I love that.

[Suzann]

Everyman wrote: "Susan wrote: "Molly and Leopold have a comfortable equilibrium, sustainable existence. I think they both like the home stability from which they can pursue their trysts. "

I agree about the comfor...Anything beyond yearning?"

No, no evidence of unfaithfulness, just looking, but whatever dalliance I think he values his home.

[Suzann]

Everyman wrote: "Zippy wrote: "Good heavens. I totally missed the infidelity. Where was it?"

It was more implied than stated.

I am finding that with Joyce, you don't need to simply read between the lines, you ne... I'm actually starting to develop a rule for myself: if something is clear and obvious, it's of little or no importance. "

This discussion is interesting because what you find "clear and obvious" I might not have noticed! I also find that big obvious things, the sea, the drowning man, are big and obvious, but I haven't grasped the implications!

[Chris]

Adelle wrote: "At 12 Nancy wrote: . And quite enjoying Calypso

I'm paying minimal attention (I think) to the chapter titles and their Greek epic implications...but it had been Molly who had wanted the painting,..."

In listening to Heffernan, he states that Molly grew up on Gilbraltar, which was originally named Calpe because it was thought to be inhabited by Calypso. I tried to read again the chapter to see where it indicates that is where she came from, but couldn't find it. Anyone? Also she supposedly looks like the nymph in the picture as she lounges there in bed.

[Chris]

Linda wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Bloom is also a little jarred by the way the letter is addressed: Mrs. Marion Bloom. Mrs. Marion. (Not "Mrs. Leopold Bloom.")"

Oh right. Thanks for pointing that out. I wondered w..."

Yes, I thought Bloom was quite disconcerted about the various "signs" he gets that Molly may be having an affair or getting ready to have one. Not only the unconventional (for the time) the addressing of the letter, but her connection with Blazes Boylan ( really BLAZES??!, right out of an old Harlequin romance novel). One of the songs she tells Bloom that is on the program is "La ci darem" which is a song of seduction from Don Giovanni. Boylan is coming to the house to discuss the program. Hmmm..... Also the name Boylan comes up again in his daughter Milly's letter who Bloom is worried about her relationship with a young student. Bringing the idea of sex up again in his mind and familial relationships.

[Charles]

Chris wrote: "Adelle wrote: "At 12 Nancy wrote: . And quite enjoying Calypso

I'm paying minimal attention (I think) to the chapter titles and their Greek epic implications...but it had been Molly who had wante..."

I don't believe that comes up until the end, so it would be a spoiler of sorts.

[Linda]

Chris wrote: "In listening to Heffernan, he states that Molly grew up on Gilbraltar, which was originally named Calpe because it was thought to be inhabited by Calypso. I tried to read again the chapter to see where it indicates that is where she came from, but couldn't find it. Anyone?"

It's on the second page of the chapter:

No. She did not want anything.....Pity. All the way from Gibraltar. Forgotten any little Spanish she knews. Wonder what her father gave for it...

[Thomas]

Chris wrote: "Adelle wrote: "At 12 Nancy wrote: . And quite enjoying Calypso

I'm paying minimal attention (I think) to the chapter titles and their Greek epic implications...but it had been Molly who had wante..."

Charles is right that it does come up at the end, in a much bigger way, but Bloom mentions Gibraltar in this episode as well. After Bloom asks Molly if she wants anything for breakfast...

--Mn.
No. She did not want anything. He heard then a warm heavy sigh, softer, as she turned over and the loose brass quoits of the bedstead jingled. Must get those settled really. Pity. All the way from Gibraltar. Forgotten any little Spanish she knew.

[Nancy]

Is anyone else finding Joyce opening up inner monologues? I walk into my office (also called The Hoarding Room) and find myself thinking, "Bronze packets of tea splay out of the slumped cardboard box in the corner." I know when that happens that I'm reading good stuff.

I'm also just reading this. I have no interest in analyzing it at this early stage. Maybe later. And maybe not at all.

[Linda]

Nancy wrote: "Is anyone else finding Joyce opening up inner monologues? I walk into my office (also called The Hoarding Room) and find myself thinking, "Bronze packets of tea splay out of the slumped cardboard box in the corner.""

Ha! Now that's funny. I've found myself trying to be aware of the sounds, sights, and feelings around me, wondering how they might translate into my own book. But I haven't explicitly stated a dialogue like your example with the tea. I love it!

[Silver]

Linda wrote: "This chapter had me drawn to Bloom instantly by the way he talked to his cat. That first page was great, especially when he mocked his cat for being Afraid of the chickens...Afraid of the chookcho..."

I enjoyed the opening seen with the cat as well. I loved the cat (and the way in which Bloom addressed the cat) Probably because most of the time when I am reading my cat is pacing back and forth in front of the couch rubbing against me, or trying to jump up onto the couch. I am usually holding the book with one hand and petting the cat with the other hand.

[Zippy]

Linda wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Is anyone else finding Joyce opening up inner monologues? I walk into my office (also called The Hoarding Room) and find myself thinking, "Bronze packets of tea splay out of the slump..."

I actually composed about a page worth of Joycean nonsense at 5am this morning, only with pop references, in my head. But it wasn't in good fun; it was more in sarcasm. I alluded to Miley Cyrus and Grumpy Cat and my iPhone alerting me to some kind of urgent email from Groupon.

I'm also having trouble reading the book without our group members' voices in my head. I'm anticipating your comments. I didn't have that problem during the other reads.

[Kathy]

Everyman wrote: "Kathy wrote: "So I couldn't help exclaiming at the first line of this section: "Mr. Leopold Bloom ate with relish the inner organs of beasts and fowls." That made me laugh out loud and established ..."

Also, listen to the rhythm of that sentence: it's perfect! Put the stresses on Le-Bloom-ate-rel-in-or-beasts-fowls and read it out loud! If you've ever read Gertrude Stein (who makes even less sense than Joyce), you'll know what I'm talking about. The sound of the words is as important as the sense of them.

[Silver]

I found the opening quite interesting with Bloom devouring the kidney's and I did ponder over the significance of that. I like the thoughts expressed here about it revealing the fact that Bloom is interested in earthly pleasures.

I do feel that Bloom does perhaps display more of an interest in more primal/carnal things than Stpehen in a way.

Also I think it is interesting the way in which Stephen is cast a drift, both literally as well as metaphorically. He had relinquished his key to the tower, and he thus has no home left in which he can return to, while Bloom as has been mentioned has become perhaps too complacent with the domestic sphere in which he is inhabiting.

There seems to be both parallels as well as similarities between these two individuals and their present situations.

Also I thought it was interesting that last we saw of Stpehen he was on the beach observing the dogs, and projecting his own thoughts on the behavior the dogs.

And here we meet Bloom with his cat, and cats and dogs are notoriously known for have very distinctly differently personalities.

There does seem to be a sort of linking/connection between people and animals. Dogs which are often dubbed "Man's Best Friend" I think in some ways can also be seen as more masculine, while cats I think tend to be linked more with the feminine. Also cats are often linked with being Witches familiar which can link into the Calypso aspect of the chapter and the way in which Bloom as become so passive, and domesticated and trapped by the women/females in his life.

[Thomas]

Silver wrote: "Also I thought it was interesting that last we saw of Stpehen he was on the beach observing the dogs, and projecting his own thoughts on the behavior the dogs.

And here we meet Bloom with his cat, and cats and dogs are notoriously known for have very distinctly differently personalities. "

Great observation. Bloom is certainly more cat-like than Stephen. Like Odysseus, I think. He maneuvers his way around things, perhaps with a certain amount of deception (or self-deception.) The cat for Stephen is the pard of Haines's nightmare, something to fear and avoid. (Though Stephen is also afraid of dogs. Bloom, on the other hand, seems to identify with all animals.)

[Lily]

Zippy wrote: "I'm also having trouble reading the book without our group members' voices in my head. I'm anticipating your comments. I didn't have that problem during the other reads. ..."

Zippy -- I am laughing out loud at your comment here! Thank you!

I also enjoyed your mind's mockery of Joyce. lol Again, thx for sharing!

This book is sort of like War and Peace or Anna Karenina can be -- one lives inside it alongside the characters. (Nabokov has written that Russians talk of characters in those novels as if they are members of their families.) Given its length and involvement, does it matter that Ulysses is for only one day?

[Lily]

Kathy wrote: "...The sound of the words is as important as the sense of them...."

I love that after all these years of reading, reading, I am still learning how to read -- by doing it, by the authors and what they say, from others in discussions.

[Linda]

Zippy wrote: "I actually composed about a page worth of Joycean nonsense at 5am this morning....I alluded to Miley Cyrus and Grumpy Cat and my iPhone alerting me to some kind of urgent email from Groupon."

Ha! That's great. I'm loving hearing of everyone's inner dialogues.

"I'm also having trouble reading the book without our group members' voices in my head. I'm anticipating your comments."

I'm actually doing this to an extent also. More in the aspect of, I'm reading along and finding so many funny bits, and then I start to wonder at what the other readers will get out of this section that I'm apparently missing.

[Paula]

At this rate, I will finish the book about a year after the rest of you, but I'm really enjoying it. I have some questions and observations:

I think Bloom called softly through the bedroom door because he wanted to rouse her just enough to respond, but not jar her awake. He seems very connected to her.

When Bloom realizes he forgot his key he says "potato I have". How do a key and a potato relate to each other? I don't get it.

The color violet reminds him of the color of Molly's garters. Oh yes, he has passion for her alright. I missed this the first time I read it. And he loves her. After all these years he daydreams about her. I think we are getting hints of a deep connection between them.

I got a kick out of him thinking about the girl's hips swinging as she whacked the rug. He seemed a little turned on by the whacking!

Here's another thing that struck me. Molly asked him about the word metempsychosis and he gave an excellent, knowledgeable answer. He knows it is a Greek word and he knows what it means. In the street, he daydreams about Turks, turbaned faces, rug shops, mosques and a girl playing a dulcimer. A woman calling her children home in their dark language. I find it hard to believe he is a world traveler, so does he just read a lot?

[Thomas]

Paula wrote: "I got a kick out of him thinking about the girl's hips swinging as she whacked the rug. He seemed a little turned on by the whacking!."


Ha! and Yes! I think you're noticing all the right things, and you're right about Bloom's feelings for Molly.

Some of the odd details will be explained (in part, at least) later on in the book. Stay tuned for the solution to the Mystery of the Potato, and other revelations....

[Linda]

Paula wrote: "When Bloom realizes he forgot his key he says "potato I have"."

I thought he was checking that he indeed have a potato to cook with his kidney that he was on his way out to buy, that he didn't need to buy a potato too. But then I wondered why he had it in his pocket, and later upon cooking his kidney it didn't appear that he also cooked the potato. So I was confused about the potato as well!

[[deleted user]]

At #53 Thomas wrote: "Adelle wrote: "I don't know how all the parts fit yet. Maybe never will. But I see Bloom SO ... domesticated. .. so... solicitousness of Molly..."

Doesn't this sound like Odysseus on the island of Calypso? Well, I don't know about solicitous... but domesticated, certainly. That's the whole problem. Odysseus is too comfortable with Calypso and he needs something to shake him up a bit. Or a lot.
"

He DOES "seem" contented there. "Seemingly content"/solicitous--at least on the surface. Or perhaps, it's simply emotionally safer there than in the outside world...maybe up to recently it's been emotionally safer than the outside world.

“softy,” “kindly,” … OK…a couple of the things that really bother me about Bloom at home:

(1) The white slip of paper he’s hidden inside the leather headband of his hat. I don’t yet know WHY this bothers me, but it does. And (2) Bloom leaves the house and instead of actually making sure that his wife will be safe and secure, he simply goes through the motions. The key is in his other pants, upstairs, and the wardrobe is creaky. “He pulled the halldoor to after him very quietly…. Looked shut..

Granted, this is probably a very safe neighborhood. Odds are nothing would happen while he was gone and Molly was sleeping. But… when I think of Stephen Dedalus refusing to just go through the motions … Bloom’s merely going through the motions must have meaning. Or…maybe it’s Bloom leaving without the key? Why else would Joyce include it here?

[Chris]

Thanks Linda @ 82 and Thomas @ 83. I went back & re-read (for the 3rd time!) and saw that description. I do find these chapters hard to follow. So the group's comments and listening to the Heffernan lectures have been EXTREMELY helpful.

[Sue]

I must have missed the post re the Heffernan lectures. How does one access these lectures?

[Chris]

Sue wrote: "I must have missed the post re the Heffernan lectures. How does one access these lectures?"

I knew I'd probably have difficulty with this book, so I purchased from the Teaching Company/The Great Courses; I'm not sure if they are accessible online.

[[deleted user]]

@ #71 Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote @ #40: "Thomas wrote @ #33 that Bloom enjoyed the earthy pleasures. On my second read through, I started to think it was more than that. Almost like self- flagellation. EDIT ADDED. Not self-flagel..Adelle wrote: "Thomas wrote that Bloom enjoyed the earthy pleasures. On my second read through, I started to think it was more than that. Almost like self- flagellation. EDIT ADDED. Not self-flagellation. He's not doing it to himself. But it's as though he's accepting punishment "I deserve it." or something.... *see below. What might Bloom have done to deserve punishment."

E: I didn't pick up on that punishment part. What did you see that I didn't? ."

Since you ask. Possible spoilers... as I've read through Aeolus and won't go back to check where this info is from. (view spoiler)[

I thought I had explained, but apparently I wasn't clear. Sorry.

Thomas posted that he thought that Bloom enjoyed the sensual pleasures. And that is a legitimate interpretation, of course.

But what I see is Bloom punishing himself. He does things...but he can't do them without guilt...so there must be a punishment {even if the punishment is in his own head... or generated by himself.}

Initially... I didn't have any idea as to WHY he was punishing himself. But my belief was that he WAS.

He ate the pork. He didn't merely eat it. He wanted the experience the "fine tang of faintly scented urine."

His wife treats him without regard. Yet he plays the servant to her solicitously (Yes, dear. No, dear. Three bags full, dear. Oh, dear. What's the issue in the Bloom home?)

He thinks of the young woman in the butcher shop as a piece of meat. {Read the long post in "Hades." Personally, I think I've discovered WHY he thought of her that way.}

She leaves. And ... here... Originally I had thought that Bloom had a little anger towards her because she had sauntered off. Showing Bloom what he couldn't have. He felt... perhaps... ignored? No, he used the word "disregarded." And he took pleasure in being disregarded... Bloom, I believe, knew that he deserved punishment. And he welcomes it.

Later, in "Hades," I think that we see/hear some of Bloom's thinking on this. He's in the church. He's thinking about confession. I'm quoting from memory here so I may be a bit off. He sees the people go up to confession. And they're forgiven. "only skin deep" Bloom thinks.

And I suspect that he wonders, Why is it so easy for them? Father {What was in the letter?What did Bloom's father say to him in the letter?... Father, I have sinned. Go my son, you are forgiven. But there is no forgiveness for Bloom. Bloom, a Jew---albeit non-practicing-- seemingly has to punish himself when he breaks the rules.

He eats the pork... and he's GLAD that the trace of urine taste is there so he can feel himself punished for having eaten it.

He thinks lewd thought about the young woman... and he takes PLEASURE in knowing he's been punished (yes, he feels disregarded. That's how he SHOULD feel, he thinks. He's being punished. As he should be. No good, married, Jewish man would think such thoughts. So... he should be punished. That's what I think he believes.) That oh so revealing sentence. "The sting of disregard glowed to a weak pleasure within his breast."


And I wonder, too, if there isn't some further, more reinforced connection with religion [in Bloom's mind] in his having been rejected.

Note those sentences in the middle of that paragraph. First??? He denigrates her physically. Why?? "Sodachapped hands. Crusted toenails, too." Is this Bloom thinking/ rationalizing to himself, "I wouldn't have wanted her anyway"? I don't know. I wonder.

But that FOLLOWING sentence. That's a doozy. "Brown scapulars in tatters, defending her both ways."

Lions, and tigers, and bears. Oh, my!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapular

So... Is she protecting herself [front and back] from Bloom...rejecting him... disregarding him... dismissing him as a man... due to her being a Catholic and Bloom being a Jew --- (although his father had put his religion aside... Bloom is still considered a Jew.)

And... it's not, Bloom thinks, that she even holds the vow of chastity sacred! Look! She's not, of course, actually wearing a scapular. It's figurative. But just look! HERS is already in TATTERS. She's not chaste. But she totally disregards Bloom.




Molly treats him with disregard/ and possibly with contempt (she's having or is going to have an outside of marriage relationship... that's disregard for Bloom or contempt for Bloom. I don't know what else you could call it.)

Bloom knows this. Although he doesn't really want to consciously. He speaks "carefully" to Molly. He says nothing when she hides the letter. He LETS her treat him as she does. I believe that he believes he deserves punishment there, too.

There was another example somewhere... but I forgot it... (lol...and I told myself I would give you 30 minutes here ;-) )...


Oh. The act of voiding of bowels. Thomas said sensual. I think not. I think Bloom "enjoys" a little of the smell... because he subconsciously believes that he should be punished. Smelling shit is what he deserves.

Oh. Rudy.

Thomas posted {if I remember correctly???] that Bloom doesn't blame himself for Rudy. "Just a mistake of nature." words to that effect. Someone posted that Bloom has moved on... accepted it... "another gone"... that's life.


I think Rudy is eating him up alive.
I believe that he believes that HE WAS responsible.
"The man is responsible." (words to that effect)

I would be willing to bet that that is why Bloom and his wife haven't been having sex. Bloom must punish himself for what happened to Rudy. Why? I don't know.

Did Bloom have an outside relationship back then? Does he think that is why he must be punished?
Does it relate to the letter his father wrote him?
Something else?

I suppose we will find out.

(hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Everyman! Eureka! Spoiler from "Hades" but ties in to post #101, Calypso discussion.

(view spoiler)[

:-) !!! THAT (i think... i must add that) IS WHY HE IS ENJOYING HIS CORRESPONDENCE WITH MARTHA.

Because Martha writes him that he is a "naughty boy" and must be punished.

Bloom believes himself to be a naughty boy. Bloom believes he needs punishment.

Regarding "drowning." Can one drown in guilt?

(hide spoiler)]

[Thomas]

Patrice wrote: "The man is to blame. He is if he had a venereal disease. Could Bloom have had one? I read that there is speculation that Joyce had one."

It's not really speculation anymore, but I don't see any evidence that Bloom is like Joyce in that respect. Stephen, on the other hand...

[[deleted user]]

Thomas wrote: "Patrice wrote: ""The man is to blame. He is if he had a venereal disease. Could Bloom have had one? I read that there is speculation that Joyce had one."





It's not really speculation anymore, but I don't see any evidence that Bloom is like Joyce in that respect . Stephen, on the other hand... 's not really speculation anymore, but..."

Do you mean by "in that respect," venereal disease?

Difficult to make absolute judgments at this point.
We only have the one day. And we're only a few chapters in. And information is not revealed in a clear and straightforward manner.

I see your point on Bloom not being like Joyce, that perhaps Stephen shares more similarities with Joyce.

However... I read an admonition in the introduction to my copy of Ulysses. It said to be careful not to read Ulysses as strictly autobiographical.

So... it could be, could it not, that Joyce may have taken some incidents/issues from his own life and distributed them amongst his various characters?

Anyway... something to consider.

[Thomas]

Adelle wrote: "Do you mean by "in that respect," venereal disease?

Difficult to make absolute judgments at this point.
We only have the one day. And we're only a few chapters in. And information is not revealed in a clear and straightforward manner..""

Yes, to the first question, and I agree with your second statement as well. There's nothing wrong with speculation, in my opinion, because it gets the reader more involved with the book. But there is a lot more information forthcoming, so some speculations are bound to be disproved. (As some will be proven!)

One argument is that Stephen represents Joyce as a young man, and Bloom as an older and slightly wiser one, but to argue that requires a knowledge of Joyce's biography. It's an interesting argument, but not without its problems. Joyce borrowed a lot from his personal experience, but he always prefers the oblique reference to the out-and-out correspondence.

[Suzann]

Patrice wrote: "Any theories behind the statement "It's always the man's fault"? Was he being bitter because it was NOT his fault?"

Could it be that "It's always the man's fault" is what women say, not that it's true in this case, or that he feels it's true, but it's a "wives's tale"? sounds like women rallying around the bereaved mother and assigning blame elsewhere to lessen the guilt of the mother. Bloom's trying to assimilate this kind of talk, not necessarily blaming himself, at least my guess at the moment.

[[deleted user]]

At 106 Thomas wrote: "Adelle wrote at #105:….. Thomas:
…and I agree with your second statement as well. There's nothing wrong with speculation, in my opinion, because it gets the reader more involved with the book. But there is a lot more information forthcoming, so some speculations are bound to be disproved. (As some will be proven!)


And suddenly, I see Ulysses from yet another angle. I’m suddenly forced to think about Lily’s post: Judge not. Yes, Lily… I’m thinking I should be less rigidly judgmental…



No spoiler. Musings. (view spoiler)[

Or, perhaps… I should still make judgments on others…but perhaps I should bear in mind that I haven’t lived their lives and I can’t possibly understand what shaped them, formed them… I can’t possibly understand who they are or why they do the things they do.


I tell you what. I'm rather in a way glad that there are too many references in Ulysses... that it's unrealistic to look everything up. So… I've been forced to do my own thinking, my own interpreting…my own speculating if you will.

Because that’s how it is in real life. I don’t know all the background information on people, my neighbors, etc., and I don’t know ANY of the information on them still to be forthcoming. LOL… But because I’m a human… and humans want to make some sense of the world, they will force a meaning because they must have a meaning.

(Internet. Example of the missing “f”s. Mind-blowingly awesome!
http://www.brainhq.com/brain-resource... )


It occurs to me that Joyce has used the story of Ulysses as a structure that, really, represents anyone’s life. Homer’s Odyssey was story of Ulysses’ life, his journey, his search… but… the hearers of the story, the readers… we… are always simply observers of Ulysses… What we “see” is not so much “Ulysses” as “Ulysses’ journey.” We’re always standing back, observing.

In fact, odyssey” has come to mean “#1 : a long wandering or voyage usually marked by many changes of fortune. #2 : an intellectual or spiritual wandering or quest.”

An odyssey would be observable or describable. (#1: First he went here, then he went there, then he did that. #2: First I thought this, then I thought that, and I came to think thusly at the end.)

That’s what The Odyssey was, right? (First Ulssyes left Troy and then he want here and then this happened to him… All observable, describable facts.) Telemachus, too. (He did this and this. )

But if we were telling our OWN tale, if we were Ulysses, we would include our motivations…. To justify ourselves to ourselves and to the listener. (I stayed with Calypso for all those years because… x, y, z.)

(But… even if we can expain that aspect… that we did it because of x, y, z… We ourselves really don’t know WHY x-y-z motivates us. We aren’t aware of how our unconscious, our sub-conscious shapes our actions. We’re blind to ourselves, right?)

Joyce, it seems to me, has done a couple of rather important things differently in his version. In titling his book “Ulysses” he has moved away from the focus on the journey. He has moved the focus to the individual… actually, individuals. Dedalus and Bloom. Those two we can see from “inside.”

As readers, we’re still observers, yes. But we observe more than Who-What-Where-and-When. Joyce exposes us to a little of the Why… And the Why, if we’re talking motivation and not merely mechanicalism, is ONLY known from inside of the character, from inside of the individual person.

Mmm. Let’s see if I can explain my thinking here clearly enough.

It’s as though Joyce has created this world… and we the readers are viewing it… and we’re making judgments on his characters, his persons.

And it’s life, right?

In a parallel way, we see our neighbors, etc. and we make judgments on them---without knowing almost anything about their lives except for the little bit that we see. Really, we understand nothing about them or their lives. And they understand nothing about ours.




I'm just a person.. And there are persons in MY own personal Dublin.

Joyce has exposed me to some details of Bloom’s life and Dedalus’s life. I know some of the lives of my neighbors.

He’s exposed me to some of the interiority of the life of Bloom and the life of Dedalus. My neighbors have told me some of their interiority. (My neighbor may tell me “I think so-and-so is ….” “My mother used to…” “I think religion is…”)

And that’s about all I have of them. What I SEE them do. What they tell me they do. What they may tell me they think. And I give a little thought to them and I interpret that information through my own experiences and my own values, and I make judgments—sometimes sweeping judgments--- based on that very, very little amount of information.


LOL.. And, you know... that's how we have to go through life... doing our own thinking, making our own interpretations---speculating. And we don't have any big book to explain to us how that guy or that guy or that guy was shaped and formed. We don't know WHY anyone is as they are. We don’t know WHY they act as they do.


But... we have lives to live. So we judge and categorize... because we need to... and we live.

:-)

Adelle, with motes of her own. :-)

(hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

At 108 Susan wrote: "Could it be that "It's always the man's fault" is what women say, not that it's true in this case, or that he feels it's true, but it's a "wives's tale"? sounds like women rallying around the bereaved mother and assigning blame elsewhere to lessen the guilt of the mother. Bloom's trying to assimilate this kind of talk, not necessarily blaming himself, at least my guess at the moment. ..."

Could be.


Perhaps Bloom is not thinking of an actual physical scientific reason for there to have been a problem with Rudy.

Perhaps he was thinking, that Rudy was born as he was due to Bloom's sins... whatever they might have been.



I'm looking at the religious/sin aspect because religion seems to be an important theme in this book... Does one accept one's inherited religion? Or does one reject it? And if one makes a conscious decision to reject it, does one nonetheless continue to carry it around subconsciously? Does one feel guilt for say, eating pork, thinking sexually, etc. Because... even when one says "I reject," one STILL has those religious messages deep within?


http://biblehub.com/john/9-2.htm

Regarding the man who was born blind, ie, with a birth defect.

In part: Verse 2. - And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi.... Who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? It was the current idea and popular doctrine, not only that all suffering in this life had its origin in sin, and was a witness to the damage done to our nature by sin, by the disruption of our normal relations with the living God, but furthermore that every peculiar disaster pointed to some special or particular sin.


the calamity of congenital blindness, with all its hopelessness, provided a very apt occasion for raising the question, "Who did sin, this man, or his parents?"




...that the sin of the parents of the blind man was the real cause of the blindness of their son. Thus (Exodus 20:5) the idea is embedded in the Decalogue, and it is repeated in Exodus 34:7 and Numbers 14:18, that the iniquities of fathers are visited upon their children.

The forty years in the wilderness was a case in point (Numbers 14:33, 34; Jeremiah 32:18), and numerous examples may be given of the punishment descending from parent to child; e.g., upon the house of Ahab, and on the sufferers from exile in Babylon. Compare the continuous threatening of vengeance for unfaithfulness upon the generation to come. The argument may have been strengthened by observation of the lot of men who have brought poverty, disease, and disgrace upon their unborn children.

Ezekiel had deliberately repudiated the inference that Israel had drawn from their Scriptures, in the dictum or proverb (Ezekiel 18:2) that "the fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge," and maintained with great and passionate earnestness, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." This may have led the disciples to put the conjectural solution. Did this man sin?



And is the concept of original sin something to think about in reading Ulysses?

[Wendel]

Adelle wrote: ".. is the concept of original sin something to think about in reading Ulysses?"

That I find difficult to imagine, as far as Bloom is concerned. For him religion is a matter of identity, of belonging. And not of guilt and redemption - more Stephen's sphere.

Blooms worrying about wife and children (more in episode 5 and 6, we are straying a bit) presents him as a real family man - once more the opposite of Stephen. But what is a family man with a broken identity? What are the consequences for his family, his heritage?

[[deleted user]]

Wendl Adelle wrote: ".. is the concept of original sin something to think about in reading Ulysses?"

That I find difficult to imagine, as far as Bloom is concerned. For him religion is a matter of ident..."

Haven't made it to those episodes yet so that information can't influence me.

I think I see what your saying about Bloom. That because his father had converted or had left the Jewish religion, you're saying that Leopold wouldn't have been brought up in the Jewish religion?

You may well be right. YOu probably are. But for myself I think I have to keep considering it. I only see Leopold on this one day. I don't know what the religious atmosphere was in his home while he was growing up. I don't know if his father made a move away from religion only in public... Did his father speak religiously in the home. Was his father a man who said things like "He got what he deserved." Lots of things I don't know. And... I wonder quite a bit about what was in the letter.

[Wendel]

Adelle wrote: "Haven't made it to those episodes yet so that information can't influence me. .."

Oops, am I straying on my own? It is difficult to remember exactly what we learned in which episode - I'm still orbiting.
The extent of Blooms jewishness remains to be decided yet - but Bloom may also be different in other respects.