"Shadowshaper" Full Discussion *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Go ahead, talk about everything!

A few questions to get us started (but say whatever you want)

1. What did you think of the characters?
2. What did you think of the worldbuilding?
3. What worked or didn't for you?
4. Overall thoughts?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Threads now open!

[Anthony]

While I was very happy, initially, to read a story set in Brooklyn’s Bed-Stuy neighborhood, featuring a plucky, artistically gifted Puerto Rican heroine, this book quickly wore out its welcome with messy, ultra convenient plotting, thin characterization, unearned moments, and sappy, unfulfilling romance. It’s sadly yet another one of what’s become a too-tall pile of modern fantasy novels that are set in happily non-traditional worlds or milieus, but which, for me, fall apart and fail to deliver in execution.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I've been thinking a lot about what I loved about this, because I did love it, and I think it's that it takes a pretty common set of tropes and expectations for books of this ilk and spins them all on their head.

We have a young woman of color who gets along with her family, isn't abused, isn't "dangerous" or woefully ignorant. She's a normal girl with a normal family dynamic, normal friendships that aren't just about rivalry/frenemy situations. She's not jumping into sex with someone, and all the messages hint broadly (lay on thickly?) really healthy things for younger women to see modeled more in books.

She listens, she takes her time, she respects herself, she's okay learning, and she knows how far to push her family. I liked that the problems were mostly about mundane levels of trauma--being of color in white neighborhoods, not knowing if you can trust a strange boy, colorism and misogyny in your own home.

I really enjoyed that the bad guy was a big blustering effigy for cultural appropriation and theft, and that the win was more about coming into your identity than it was about the magical showdown.

I think what it comes down to is that I've read this same story told tiredly so, so many times that this was a breath of fresh air for the YA and UF genres for me.

[Anthony]

I can certainly appreciate the novelty of those aspects, and the important breakthroughs represented by that novelty. I just wish that it was assembled into a coherent story that tracked psychologically and emotionally and plot wise.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

That's fair. Like I mentioned in one of your updates, I do agree the plot was more or less treated as a subplot, and I can see how that would be irritating for sure.

Can you say more about what you mean about it not being coherent psychologically or emotionally?

[Anthony]

Sure. It’s an issue I’ve had with a fair amount of contemporary SFF writing: I don’t feel like I’m really witnessing a true journey from the inside of the head and heart of the protagonist. So much happens here in such a compact period of time, and the moment-to-moment experience of it all just doesn’t feel authentic to me in a psychological or emotional sense. It’s rushed, crammed together, wildly inconsistent, and therefore, for me, incoherent.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Thanks for expanding on that, you're thoughtful as always!

I'm curious to hear if others feel similarly! Don't be shy friends ^^

[Dawn F]

Yeah it was the same for me. It was shallow, none of what happened really had any depth. It felt like the author had a check list of what they wanted to include and didn’t spend enough time on any of it to really resonate. It lacked introspection from the character(s) imo.

[Eva]

Hmm... I think my own rating was also a bit influenced by the thought that "yes, this sends the right kind of signals that I would want young girls to hear", but it's possible that it was more concerned with that than with telling a really compelling story that draws you in and convinces you utterly.

But was also fun to read (or listen to) for me, so I didn't mind the lackluster plot and romance so much. The individual scenes were interesting and did interesting things. In terms of "rushed and crammed": Middle Grade and YA usually have much faster pacing than books meant for adults, so the emotional reactions of characters are usually handled quickly, as well. I hear everywhere that this is the way younger readers like it, so I don't deduct points for it (and I personally don't mind fast pacing). Not sure I see where the characterization was inconsistent, though, I didn't notice that when listening.

But I do agree that I didn't feel very intensely with the protagonist - this intimate connection to their head and heart that makes you see them as real people whom you love wasn't there. It was more of an analytical "she's great".

[Christopher]

I'm not quite done, but peeking into this thread and this has been my feeling throughout -- the main character and setting are great, refreshing, etc. but the story isn't doing much for me. I'd like to see this group in a totally different story, doesn't even have to be SFF, but as it stands I'm not planning on continuing the series and even debating DNF at 73%.

[Dawn F]

To elaborate a bit about what didn’t work for me: the main character has some issues, with family, with friends, with admitting she likes hot guy who is not a boyfriend although she drools over him, some inherited trauma and old family secrets, and all of it is resolved within a really short time and with just a few arguments. Silent uncle turns out to be super cool accepting modern v2.0 dad, how conventient. Her pain of not having been excluded from her family’s secret gets over super fast once mom has explained she were just afraid, bla bla. It’s so incredibly simplistic. You do not get over things this fast. You can move on, sure, but things take a lot of work. People don’t change their whole attitude just because you’re a clever teen yelling a good one liner and slamming the door as you leave. You can’t solve a myriad of complicated hurts by just a few conversations and a hug. That’s ultimately what I felt this novel tried to do. Maybe it was meant as a comfort for troubled teens, but it’s just unlrealistic and doesn’t lend any depth or inner knowledge or any real help in what to do if you were actually in a dysfunctional family battling non-magical secrets. That’s just my feelings about it. However, it was not badly written, prosewise, so there is that ^^

[Lisa]

I agree with with many of the previous comments. I wish the shadowshaper magic played a bigger role in the novel, rather then the very loose mystery in the overall story.

I liked that Sierra was so normal and grounded in her own identity and reality but it also made her easy acceptance of the spirits/paintings seem unreal and rushed. She doesn't spend alot of time questioning or pushing back on what she's witnessing and learns this skill with relative ease.

[Kaa]

I am with Allison in really liking this book (I enjoyed it well enough to be re-reading), and I've also been trying to think about why. I think one of the big things, for me, is that it reminds me of good teenage comedy/drama TV rather than typical YA fantasy. The kids feel like mostly realistic teens, in terms of perspective, with bonus wittiness because it's scripted. And I liked seeing a teenage romance that was about having things in common and enjoying spending time together, instead of anything super dramatic or intense.

The plot is very much secondary to the characters and setting, but both of those (and the magic) were so vivid for me that I couldn't care much. I loved how alive Sierra's part of Brooklyn felt.

There were a lot of very positive messages that I appreciate in the book, but I think the reason I liked them so much was because Older succeeded in making me feel those lessons, not just think about them. I got a lot of enjoyment from reading (and even more from listening, on this second time through - the audiobook narrator is excellent) the book, and my rating reflects that, even if I can understand where many of the criticisms are coming from.

[Kaa]

Dawn, I didn't feel as though Sierra's issues (especially with her family) were all resolved, but rather that she reached a place where it would be possible for damage to stop being done and for healing to happen, which I liked. And I felt like the point was more that even families that aren't particularly dysfunctional can hurt each other and fail to understand each other. But again, personal perspective - I can also see why you would feel differently!

[Mary]

I listened to Shadowshaper almost a year ago so I'm certainly not  remembering everything but it's interesting to see all the comments. I liked it for many of the same reasons as others; strong female LatinX character, worldbuilding and the way the magic worked.    I was ok with the villain, I would have preferred more nuance but understanding the author's point and it being YA I gave it a pass.
Two things, that I don't think were mentioned yet, that bothered me so much I took a star off and ended up with 3 stars.One I never really 'bought' that Sierra's magic manifested via drawing or that she was even an artist. I believed it more with the boy, Robbie? Other than the mural she was never drawing or had a sketchbook etc.. If I'm remembering this wrong let me know.  I always felt her magic more when she was dancing. I think once in her room and another at the club I thought it was going to manifest that way, since it's not a one type  magic.
The second thing that drove me insane was she was never prepared once she realized how her magic worked! If you had magic that manifested by drawing would you ever be without something to write with ?  a pen, pencil, chalk, Sharpie!!! ARGGH! That scene on the boardwalk.... You could even prepare ahead of time having drawn stuff already (BTW would have made for a great scene of a bunch of teenagers dreaming up stuff and literally being able to bring it to life) instead she never has anything and I only remember her drawing dashes etc.

[Ashley]

I don't think I have much to add beyond what everyone has already said but one scene that almost made me stop reading was when they found the body of the domino player whose name I have already forgotten. Like they literally KNOW going in something bad has happened to him and they all scooby doo esque fall all over the scene and then eventually one of them thinks to look for a light switch? I get that their teens but teens (especially ones that have grown up with crime being the norm, Sierra even discusses how often people are shot and killed twice in the book) are not dumb in all things.

[J.W.]

I was not a huge fan of this book, myself. I liked some of the changed tropes, but did not enjoy, at all, the writing style and lack of characterization.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

That's a shame! Can you say more (if you'd like?) There can still be enjoyment in the discussion :)

[Christopher]

I forced myself to finish this, but I think this just wasn't my jam. I could see this getting a Netflix adaptation, I think the characters and setting are all there, I'd just want some tuning up of the script. Also the shaping effects might be better on the screen than on the page.

[Sandy]

I liked this one. It was a really quick listen. I don't think it built out the characters enough they were a bit flat - there was a lot of material there to build on but the concept was good. I just didn't get the uncle at all ( or was it the god father ). Was he just a means to the college library? They could have also built out the person in the college too.

[John]

I'm only half way through. So, I won't read all the comments and incur the spoiler risk. I will say that I am enjoying the book because of the focus on the protagonist. She is courageous and willing to be vulnerable at the same time. But then I enjoy character driven books.

[Alex]

I'm almost finished. There are some good concepts -- especially the spiritual lore explored -- but the overall execution is... meh. I'm getting notes of Scooby Gang, with a healthy dose of Disney cringe. I likely would have enjoyed this a lot more when I was 12.

[Christopher]

One issue I had with this one after thinking about it a bit and this might be something endemic to YA is that there didn't seem to be much deep thought at all, things just keep happening and the MC follows her hunches. I appreciated when the librarian was like "shouldn't we prepare at all?" and they were like "no, YOLO, let's run into Wick's lair". Or when they thought Coney Island might be the place they have to go (again just on a hunch --where else would lonely people go in the NY Metro region, lol) just running out there in the middle of the night etc. I think what I'm looking for more in SFF these days are ideas that make me think and this was more of a thrill ride variety of book.

[Alex]

Christopher wrote: "One issue I had with this one after thinking about it a bit and this might be something endemic to YA is that there didn't seem to be much deep thought at all, things just keep happening and the MC..."

When she's on the train and she calls the librarian -- why? Why did she call the librarian? I read that part twice, trying to figure out what purpose she had for calling her in the first place other than to say "I figured it out. Bye."

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I thought that was because the librarian had been so involved in the mystery, and was an adult who understood that Sierra wasn't crazy when she was talking about this.

I do agree this is definitely straight forward in terms of the actual plot. I thought all the nuance was in figuring out your place with a family and neighborhood that both accepted you and believed you were something else. That was the part I chewed on.

[Gabi]

Finished it, but I didn't rate it. I was so clearly not the target audience that it seemed unfair for me to rate it.
I must admit I was bored throughout the whole book and had problems paying attention.

[DivaDiane]

I just finished listening and have to say I really enjoyed it., then plot, Scooby Gang and all. The narrator, Anika Noni Rose, was fantastic and really added spark to the dialogue. I agree with Allison and a few others who didn’t care much about the lack of plot and appreciated the MC and how she and her family were depicted. I’m not sure if I’m going to make it to the Virtual Book Club discussion tomorrow, I wish I could, but I stupidly have another even on.

[Midiain]

I never know to expect from a YA book since so many seem to get tagged that way when they're absolutely not YA. This one fit the tag with several of the reasons why I don't like a lot of them. It was very superficial. The main character is the overpowered chosen one who who gained her power with little to no effort and easily surpassed others who had been training for years even without any kind of knowledge about her powers. All it was missing was the torrent of angst. Like a few people have mentioned, her lack of any kind of preparation was annoying. A bag full of paper and notebooks but no chalk or anything to draw with when that is literally your source of power?

That's what I didn't like. I've read a few books by Daniel Jose Older and this felt like returning to the world he created in his Bone Street Rumba trilogy and Salsa Nocturna. You can feel his love and respect for the characters and the places writes about. He managed to touch on gentrification and cultural appropriation without being preachy or heavy-handed. None of the main characters were white. (And I can just hear the whining I'd find about that in other forums). It didn't make a big deal about the same-sex relationship. They were just people who existed.

People like to talk about strong female characters and often that means fighting skills or an aggressive attitude. Sierra was strong in her identity and sense of self-respect. It's a very character driven story and all of the characters were likeable, realistic in their interactions, and had distinct personalities despite the book being superficial in other ways. I liked that Robbie was skinny, awkward, and the weird kid at school.

Overall, I liked it. It was a lightweight but fun book. Also, I really want to hear Culebra perform. Death metal salsa ballads? That's absolutely something that would be on my playlists.

[Deedee]

Just finished, rated it 2 stars. It reads like the target audience is middle school readers (which I am not). The relationships especially are what middle school readers think high school relationships would be like. I also didn't buy Sierra being so powerful so quick, powerful enough to defeat the bad guy in two pages at the end.

That said, the shadowshaper concept is cool -- who wouldn't want painted murals come to life?? :)

[Beth]

It's maybe telling that it took me three weeks to read a YA book. Just way too easy to put down, though it definitely picked up the further it went along.

The scene-setting was excellent. There was a great sense of the neighborhood Sierra lived in, little details like picking up Icees on a summer day, the memorial mural for Bennie's brother Vincent (Victor?), things like that.

I agree with those who thought the characterization was thin. Sometimes a milieu can overcome aspects of the story that are weaker, but imo this story didn't manage it.

Mary wrote: "One I never really 'bought' that Sierra's magic manifested via drawing or that she was even an artist. [...]I always felt her magic more when she was dancing."

I hadn't considered it until I read Mary's post, but I agree! If the concept is "communing with ancestral spirits, and doing magic with their help," street art needn't be the only way to attain that. Juan could do it with his music, for example!

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Allison wrote: "I've been thinking a lot about what I loved about this, because I did love it, and I think it's that it takes a pretty common set of tropes and expectations for books of this ilk and spins them all..."

Completely agree with all of your points!

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Christopher wrote: "One issue I had with this one after thinking about it a bit and this might be something endemic to YA is that there didn't seem to be much deep thought at all, things just keep happening and the MC..."

Agreed. I'm halfway done and it's pretty clear it's a Scooby Doo breezy thriller for maybe middle-schoolers and up. I like its positive vibes.